Driving 101

[CatGuy]

Ok....I've owned this '26 Roadster for a couple months now and had several questions, problems and sorted some things out. A few things yet to do, but getting it sorted out. In my mind it's still idling way too high. The valve cover was on right so I put it back on right. The carb to intake manifold gasket is new. The intake/exhaust manifold gaskets are new. I'm going to try today to start it up and take the throttle linkage loose and see if I can get it to idle down. Anyway.....getting to my question.....when shifting up to high do I also need to retard the spark? Would that help to keep the car from shuddering/banging when shifting? (I haven't looked into the internal clutch adjustments) I am usually keeping the spark as advanced as possible and dumping the throttle to shift. After it 'bangs' into high gear it acts like it's climbing up to speed with one cylinder no matter where I set the throttle. It would be nice to have someone drive this and drive a 'T' that is in perfect shape so I can compare.....

[TWrenn]

If you say "idling too high" I'm assuming you mean when you have the accelerator lever all the way "up". Go to the carb linkages and adjust the screw while it's running and you'll get the idle down to where you want it.
You do not need to retard the spark when shifting up to high. Just slow up the accelerator lever a bit quickly while making the shift. It takes practice, but you'll get it down soon.
Many cars "shudder" upon accelerating from when you let off the clutch into high gear. Some do a little, some do a lot. Can't really help you there without witnessing it. Maybe your carb fuel knob needs a tad opened up a bit more too. I have found that to help alleviate that shuddering somewhat. Again, do it in small increments. You don't want your carb set too rich.

[CatGuy]

If you say "idling too high" I'm assuming you mean when you have the accelerator lever all the way "up". Go to the carb linkages and adjust the screw while it's running and you'll get the idle down to where you want it.
You do not need to retard the spark when shifting up to high. Just slow up the accelerator lever a bit quickly while making the shift. It takes practice, but you'll get it down soon.
Many cars "shudder" upon accelerating from when you let off the clutch into high gear. Some do a little, some do a lot. Can't really help you there without witnessing it. Maybe your carb fuel knob needs a tad opened up a bit more too. I have found that to help alleviate that shuddering somewhat. Again, do it in small increments. You don't want your carb set too rich.

I forgot to mention that the screw is backed all the way out till it's about to fall out. Maybe the throttle linkage is too long....?

[TXGOAT2]

It sounds as if your car is a long way from running right. In fact, it sounds as if it barely runs at all. It may need major work, or it may only need some inexpensive adjustments. If you can find someone with T experience nearby to look it over and drive it, it would be very helpful. A copy of the Model T Ford Service Manual is a very useful thing to have.

[TXGOAT2]

You can easily tell if the throttle linkage is causing your car to idle too fast by disconnecting it from the carburetor. I'd remove the cotter pin that holds the throttle rod to the throttle lever and then tie the throttle lever on the carburetor in the idle position (against or near the idle speed screw) with a piece of string or wire to prevent the engine from racing. Then start the engine and let it warm up for a couple of minutes, then see if the engine idles down with the lever on the carburetor held against the screw. You should be able to back the screw out until the engine idles very slowly or dies. If it doesn't, you have a carburetor issue.

[TXGOAT2]

A Model T that is in good running order can be shifted from low to high as smoothly as a modern automatic transmission can shift.

[CatGuy]

It sounds as if your car is a long way from running right. In fact, it sounds as if it barely runs at all. It may need major work, or it may only need some inexpensive adjustments. If you can find someone with T experience nearby to look it over and drive it, it would be very helpful. A copy of the Model T Ford Service Manual is a very useful thing to have.

You may very well be right. I have made some improvements to it and it is better. It isn't missing anymore. It did overheat (maybe) and shot the radiator cap 4' in the air and sprayed coolant everywhere the other day! That might be because I had the spark retarded more than maybe I should....and I also filled the radiator to the 'FORD' script which I hear is wrong? I haven't joined a club yet because they're all 40 miles or more away so I wouldn't have time to do much with them or have them help me. I was briefly texting the guy from Ames that drove his 'T' to Alaska and back, but he quit responding. I suppose since I'm not in a club....? I watch the youtube videos of Scott Clements and assume that mine should be so much smoother.

[CatGuy]

A Model T that is in good running order can be shifted from low to high as smoothly as a modern automatic transmission can shift.

This one is shaking itself apart when it does!

[Moxie26]

Scott... Good morning... Please take this under consideration..... It was suggested that when you make this shift to high gear you would retard your throttle. Instead when you want to shift retard your Spark Lever at least halfway as the transmission goes with the high gear and see if that smooths transfer to high gear..... Leaving your throttle in the same position, and after the shift into high gear you may advance your spark and throttle according to road conditions.

[TXGOAT2]

You probably have a clogged radiator and a clogged overflow pipe. The radiator won't pressure up unless the overflow pipe is clogged. The spark lever has no set position except when starting the engine, when it needs to be all the way up. When the car is running, the spark lever generally needs to be moved further downward the faster the engine is running, and vice-versa. At idle and low speeds, the lever should only need to be about halfway down, or less. As a general rule, when you are driving the car, move the spark lever down more as you move the throttle lever down more. You can easily move both the throttle and spark levers up or down with your fingers without taking your hands off the steering wheel. They should move easily, but they should stay where you put them.

[TXGOAT2]

Model Ts are easy to drive with just a little practice, if one in reasonably good running order. They can be difficult to handle if things are out of adjustment or in need of repair.

[CatGuy]

Scott... Good morning... Please take this under consideration..... It was suggested that when you make this shift to high gear you would retard your throttle. Instead when you want to shift retard your Spark Lever at least halfway as the transmission goes with the high gear and see if that smooths transfer to high gear..... Leaving your throttle in the same position, and after the shift into high gear you may advance your spark and throttle according to road conditions.

I'll give that a try next time. Couldn't hurt.

[DJPeterson]

The radiator cap should never shoot 4' in the air. It is a non pressurized system and there is an open overflow pipe preventing this. Besides, the cap is threaded into place. Is your overflow pipe kinked, plugged or do you have an aftermarket hot rod radiator?

[CatGuy]

You probably have a clogged radiator and a clogged overflow pipe. The radiator won't pressure up unless the overflow pipe is clogged. The spark lever has no set position except when starting the engine, when it needs to be all the way up. When the car is running, the spark lever generally needs to be moved further downward the faster the engine is running, and vice-versa. At idle and low speeds, the lever should only need to be about halfway down, or less. As a general rule, when you are driving the car, move the spark lever down more as you move the throttle lever down more. You can easily move both the throttle and spark levers up or down with your fingers without taking your hands off the steering wheel. They should move easily, but they should stay where you put them.

The odd thing is....the overflow tube isn't clogged. When I was filling it up I accidentally poured coolant down it and it ran through just fine. Now, the threads are bad on the cap or radiator as I can just pull the cap straight off even when it's threaded on.

[CatGuy]

The radiator cap should never shoot 4' in the air. It is a non pressurized system and there is an open overflow pipe preventing this. Besides, the cap is threaded into place. Is your overflow pipe kinked, plugged or do you have an aftermarket hot rod radiator?

The radiator cap or radiator threads are bad so it doesn't tighten up. I can pull it straight up. The overflow pipe is clear. Not sure if it's the original or aftermarket radiator. Doesn't make sense.

[Scott_Conger]

Your May 3 post shows an enormous dog-leg in your throttle rod. That should not be necessary at all, and yet looking at the picture, it is indeed necessary. I would be suspicious that as mentioned before, your valve cover was originally solid and someone put the hole in the wrong place.

if your carb throttle-stop screw never touches the carb when gas lever is all the way "up", then because of all the extra bends in the rod, it is simply too short and is not allowing the throttle plate to close fully or fully enough. If you think the idle is too high, you are almost certainly right...your car should be able to just barely putt-putt-putt at idle, and should be able to be killed completely by screwing the adjustment screw "out". I'm guessing that at no time, in no situation, is the throttle screw on the carb ever hitting the cast boss on the carb body

at another point, in another post, you were suffering from fouled plugs and installed new intake gaskets...this is not as easy or straight forward on the first attempt as it would seem and multiple failed attempts to seal things up, using the same gaskets over and over, will lead to vacuum leaks and all sorts of havoc with the car trying to run. Bucking, snorting, and little power are examples of trouble that can manifest with bad intake gaskets.

your idea to get some help is an excellent idea...it is time to start enjoying this thing at least as much as you are battling it.

[Norman Kling]

You mention that all the nearby T clubs are 40 miles away or more. That is true in many places, however they might have members who live closer to you. So I urge you to contact someone in each of the nearest clubs and ask if they have members who live closer to you. Interestingly, here in the San Diego area, we actually have members who live more than 40 miles away. But we try to arrange tours in various areas of the county so that some of the tours go into each neighborhood or town. And many of us have trailers so we can tow our T's to the starting point of a tour, but there are some who drive their T's to the start of all of them.

Do you have the stock type Ford ignition system with the coils and timer? If you are running on magneto, there are 3 or 4 points on the timing lever where the spark will advance when you move the rod. So just pulling all the way down is not correct. I recommend the second node (first point the engine speeds up) for slower speeds such as starting out and until you get moving at least 25 mph in high. Then if you are going quite fast like 35 or more pull it down one more. Sometimes there is a 4th node when the lever is all the way down. If so, you can go there for 45 mph of so. If you start to climb a hill and the engine bogs down, raise the spark lever one node.

When you rev the engine in low gear, as you shift into high, when you lift the pedal to high just as you go through neutral, slow down the throttle and then after you get into gear, increase the throttle till you get to your desired driving speed.

You can also try adjusting the point where you shift from low to high either rev up more, or shift at a lower speed until you find the smoothest shift point. Note, the smoothest point will vary whether you are on level, downhill or uphill. After practice you will get better at it.
Norm

[CatGuy]

You mention that all the nearby T clubs are 40 miles away or more. That is true in many places, however they might have members who live closer to you. So I urge you to contact someone in each of the nearest clubs and ask if they have members who live closer to you. Interestingly, here in the San Diego area, we actually have members who live more than 40 miles away. But we try to arrange tours in various areas of the county so that some of the tours go into each neighborhood or town. And many of us have trailers so we can tow our T's to the starting point of a tour, but there are some who drive their T's to the start of all of them.

Do you have the stock type Ford ignition system with the coils and timer? If you are running on magneto, there are 3 or 4 points on the timing lever where the spark will advance when you move the rod. So just pulling all the way down is not correct. I recommend the second node (first point the engine speeds up) for slower speeds such as starting out and until you get moving at least 25 mph in high. Then if you are going quite fast like 35 or more pull it down one more. Sometimes there is a 4th node when the lever is all the way down. If so, you can go there for 45 mph of so. If you start to climb a hill and the engine bogs down, raise the spark lever one node.

When you rev the engine in low gear, as you shift into high, when you lift the pedal to high just as you go through neutral, slow down the throttle and then after you get into gear, increase the throttle till you get to your desired driving speed.

You can also try adjusting the point where you shift from low to high either rev up more, or shift at a lower speed until you find the smoothest shift point. Note, the smoothest point will vary whether you are on level, downhill or uphill. After practice you will get better at it.
Norm

I do have an all stock 'T' from what I can tell. What is the shifting point? I've heard don't rev it too much, shift as soon as you get rolling, shift before you cross the intersection. I have tried to wind it up more than I would think is right and it seems to help some.....some.

[Scott_Conger]

I suspect it shifts better at higher RPM because for one reason or another you have very little torque available at lower RPM in high gear. That is most likely going to be carburetion or ignition...at the very least, you don't have all 4 cylinders working in harmony like they should. Although you never want to lug the car, if it is performing correctly, even with light throttle, it will be able pull strongly in high gear and low RPM.

this is why I and others agree with you that you need to drive a good car and get advice on your car and some practice driving a car that is performing correctly. It will be educational and eye-opening.

In the past, I have advised new owners to rebuild the coils that often have rusty and fused points; the carb which usually has a throttle shaft wobbling around; and replacing the timer and decrepit wiring, as a near-mandatory exercise in getting a poorly running car up and running. For that effort, I occasionally get my arse handed to me by a couple of cheapskates who prefer to spend their entire retirement picking and pecking away at things all the while admonishing me publicly and privately that not everyone is "Rich", and that throwing new parts at a car is "not good diagnostic methodology". Baloney, no one ever got a car to drive well on unrestored 100 year old coils and a worn out carb and timer... I'm not rich, but I do have better things to do than spend the rest of my life fruitlessly poking at a lump of iron. I've resurrected a number of cars for folks, sometimes with their help and sometimes not...I have NEVER had anyone say "I sure wish you'd spent a few more months working on this thing". Most are happy to be on the road quickly, with a modest outlay of $$. The owners who EVENTUALLY get their car running without having replaced coils, carb, and wiring, are far and few between, so my philosophy is to get it done, get it over with, and move on. I haven't followed your efforts closely enough to know where you are at in the process but it sounds like you have one or more unresolved issues left to deal with...driving technique is important but I don't believe it is your sole issue right now.

Stick with it and it will eventually all fall into place for you...and finding a mentor will be a great help and a great start

[TXGOAT2]

There is no set shifting point. IF the car is running as it should, and you're driving on level ground, you can shift to high at about 7 to 10 miles an hour, or less. This would correspond to an engine speed of around 700 to 900 RPM in low gear. You will need to get your engine runnning properly to be able to shift the gears smoothly, and for the car to run smoothly, and to have any power at lower speeds.

[speedytinc]

I have yet to read about any coil servicing.(could have missed it in the multitude of posts) New coils are an "EVENTUALITY" Pay now, or later after a bunch of unnecessary floundering. Necessary & well spent money.
I dont disagree the carb is likely to also an issue, but not as critical as the ignition system, since the car runs somewhat.
A new carb will be the cherry on top.

Untill the motor is running well thru the ranges of idle to top speed, the difficulties in driving it will persist.

[CatGuy]

I haven't replaced the coils yet. I guess I'm leaving that as a last resort. It's not missing anymore so I guess I figure it might not be needed? Yes / no? At lunch I took off the throttle linkage while the car was running and adjusted the carburetor idle screw as low as I could without it stalling. Then I bent the arm some to match that. I probably lowered the idle by about.....200rpm.....maybe.... I didn't drive it back because now the carburetor has a leak. We looked into the carburetor and must have not gotten it back together tight enough? The throttle plate and choke plate in the carburetor look good and function smoothly. I did contact 'Heart Of Iowa Ts' again to see if someone would maybe be able to assist.

[speedytinc]

I haven't replaced the coils yet. I guess I'm leaving that as a last resort. It's not missing anymore so I guess I figure it might not be needed? Yes / no? At lunch I took off the throttle linkage while the car was running and adjusted the carburetor idle screw as low as I could without it stalling. Then I bent the arm some to match that. I probably lowered the idle by about.....200rpm.....maybe.... I didn't drive it back because now the carburetor has a leak. We looked into the carburetor and must have not gotten it back together tight enough? The throttle plate and choke plate in the carburetor look good and function smoothly. I did contact 'Heart Of Iowa Ts' again to see if someone would maybe be able to assist.

Coils are a first resort item. Its not missing as bad since you replaced a wasted timer. Tuning is the minimum needed. Others & I have said all this previously. Even old coils that test ok will need their old capacitors replaced to provide a reasonable point life. This is how I can assert that new coils are a certainty for a good running T.

With the carb idle screw out as far as it will go, the closed idle lever/butterfly will shut off the motor. If not, another strange issue has appeared.

Yes, get a well versed person to check your T out. Anyone with a little experience will be able to quickly fix or point out problems. Bonus, get a driving lesson. That to will be valuable as well as diagnostic.

[CatGuy]

I haven't replaced the coils yet. I guess I'm leaving that as a last resort. It's not missing anymore so I guess I figure it might not be needed? Yes / no? At lunch I took off the throttle linkage while the car was running and adjusted the carburetor idle screw as low as I could without it stalling. Then I bent the arm some to match that. I probably lowered the idle by about.....200rpm.....maybe.... I didn't drive it back because now the carburetor has a leak. We looked into the carburetor and must have not gotten it back together tight enough? The throttle plate and choke plate in the carburetor look good and function smoothly. I did contact 'Heart Of Iowa Ts' again to see if someone would maybe be able to assist.

Coils are a first resort item. Its not missing as bad since you replaced a wasted timer. Tuning is the minimum needed. Others & I have said all this previously. Even old coils that test ok will need their old capacitors replaced to provide a reasonable point life. This is how I can assert that new coils are a certainty for a good running T.

With the carb idle screw out as far as it will go, the closed idle lever/butterfly will shut off the motor. If not, another strange issue has appeared.

Yes, get a well versed person to check your T out. Anyone with a little experience will be able to quickly fix or point out problems. Bonus, get a driving lesson. That to will be valuable as well as diagnostic.

Can the coils seem to function well at idle and low speed, but not as well after I shift into high? It takes a little bit for it to pick up RPM's after it gets into high. After it does it smooths out and can get up to 35. Is there any way to test coils? Please be patient, I want to learn, too.

[speedytinc]

Yes, coils can be fine @ idle & proceed to skip or double spark @ faster speeds. You may not recognize that the coils are or are not firing well. It may become more clear if you can get the idle down to a very slow putt.
You test them to know they are functioning consistently.
As mentioned before, This requires expensive equipment. IMO a HCCT(hand crank coil tester) will give an adequate look @ each coils function. The optimal check/reset would be with an ECCT(electronic) coil tester. So you need to find a local club member , so equipped, willing to test them for you or you buy a rebuilt set. They will come set & ready to go for many years of trouble free, no touch service. The new caps will extend point life. Old caps that still function are way out of optimal spec.
Listening to the varying sounds of each coil can be very deceiving, especially when set on a HCCT, I have found. A weak buzz can still be in spec. I cant explain why. The last set of coils I bought & set with an ECCT did all have a consistent snap.

I dont recall if you are running on 6v dc or a hot magneto.(30+V) Running on 6v makes for noticeably poorer performance than 12v or a good mag.

[CatGuy]

Yes, coils can be fine @ idle & proceed to skip or double spark @ faster speeds. You may not recognize that the coils are or are not firing well. It may become more clear if you can get the idle down to a very slow putt.
You test them to know they are functioning consistently.
As mentioned before, This requires expensive equipment. IMO a HCCT(hand crank coil tester) will give an adequate look @ each coils function. The optimal check/reset would be with an ECCT(electronic) coil tester. So you need to find a local club member , so equipped, willing to test them for you or you buy a rebuilt set. They will come set & ready to go for many years of trouble free, no touch service. The new caps will extend point life. Old caps that still function are way out of optimal spec.
Listening to the varying sounds of each coil can be very deceiving, especially when set on a HCCT, I have found. A weak buzz can still be in spec. I cant explain why. The last set of coils I bought & set with an ECCT did all have a consistent snap.

I dont recall if you are running on 6v dc or a hot magneto.(30+V) Running on 6v makes for noticeably poorer performance than 12v or a good mag.

I can run the car on 6 volt or mag. I don't really notice a big difference either way. At lunch I fixed (or at least I think I did) the idle issue. As it sat there idling lower I did notice an occasional 'miss' or 'pop' that may not have been there at higher idle. What is 'Double Spark'?

[speedytinc]

Double spark is when during the firing sequence on mag, you get more than 1 strong spark. 2 weaker sparks. That changes firing time & the second spark is wasted.

That occasional miss can be coils or carburation. Try fine tuning your mixture needle @ low idle to eliminate carburation. Its the kind of thing you find with a worn leaky throttle shaft also.

Running the same @ mag & battery is a sign of a weak mag. Check the AC output @ the mag post with an analog voltmeter Or the light bulb burn out test. That was mentioned here recently.

[Scott_Conger]

...sign of a weak mag or horrifically adjusted coils

[CatGuy]

This morning on the way to work I tried to change up my shifting technique and I really think it made a difference. It was the smoothest it's been since I've owned it. When ready to shift I took it out of low and paused in neutral then eased it into high. Much less grumbling. I brought the throttle back to idle as I did so. Now, the 'chugging' is still there and it feels like it's 'loping' or missing some in high. That makes me think that new coils might be a good idea. What should I get for coils? In the Lang's catalog I don't see a listing for 1926 coils? Maybe it doesn't matter, but I would like it to be period correct if possible.

[speedytinc]

This morning on the way to work I tried to change up my shifting technique and I really think it made a difference. It was the smoothest it's been since I've owned it. When ready to shift I took it out of low and paused in neutral then eased it into high. Much less grumbling. I brought the throttle back to idle as I did so. Now, the 'chugging' is still there and it feels like it's 'loping' or missing some in high. That makes me think that new coils might be a good idea. What should I get for coils? In the Lang's catalog I don't see a listing for 1926 coils? Maybe it doesn't matter, but I would like it to be period correct if possible.

Get rebuilt units from Ron Patterson or another quality coil guy. There are a few guys with excellent reputations. Maybe others will have other guys to recommend. New coils wont be as good as original, rebuilt units.(So i"m told)
Good rule of thumb: Stay away from reproduction parts as much as possible.

[Steve Jelf]

You can't go wrong with Coil Man Ron Patterson. Brent Mize and Luke Chennel are excellent too.