Unsnuggable hogshead

[hull 433]

The hogshead on my 15 isn't settling in right and the Ford service book doesn't seem to have an answer why.

The car came to me in mid re-restoration with the hogshead off. Before reinstalling it I removed the reverse and brake pedals and disconnected the clutch pedal from the clutch lever shaft. The clutch release ring is clean and freshly greased, the shafts are all oiled, and basically everything that could get in the way is cleared off. The pan is also clean.

The hogshead mostly lowers onto the pan readily enough, the bolt holes line up and the clutch release ring fits easily. But there is a stubborn quarter inch or less gap from the pan, even with the band clip removed. The hogshead rocks from side to side in this condition.

Can't get to the gasket stage until it sets down, so what could be going on here, has anyone experienced this?

[jiminbartow]

Does the hogshead rock when it is sitting on the pan or does it rock when sitting on a truly flat surface? Did you have your pan aligned on a pan jig? Jim Patrick

[Craig Leach]

Just a couple of guesses. Is the band clamp you have resting on the paddle bosses & try removing the mag post? it may be holding things up also.
Craig.

[Scott_Conger]

the band clamp AND the hogs head cannot fit the same space...once the bands are captured by the pedal shafts you have to withdraw the band clamps and the whole thing will settle into place. The bosses in an aluminum hogs head come intimately close to the tops of the bands even without the clamp holding it up. It's for this reason many people run into problems trying to fit removable ear bands to early cars. I commend you for discovering this without breaking your hogs head as the majority of folks often do.

[Allan]

I never use that clamp to hold the bands in place. On our RHD cars both the reverse and brake pedals are fixed in the hogshead, the clutch pedal being the removable one, but it should make no difference. I tie the band ears together with a single strand of copper wire. I use copper so that if I was to lose a bit, it would not get sucked onto a flywheel magnet.
The trick is to tie the band ears together just far enough apart to allow the shaft springs to settle between them. I back the two adjusters right out to leave the maximum gap. I have the clutch pedal spring, washer and notched nut already in place to avoid the chance of dropping bits trying to fit them with the hogshead in place. Two or three turns on the thread is enough to hold the nut there.
The hangup can come when one of the three springs rests on top of a band ear. A stout screwdriver will usually set the errant spring into the gap between the band ears, hence the pre-setting of the gaps in the ears. Once the springs are nestled between the ear, the copper tie wires are removed and the cover can be lowered into position.
Re the copper wire. Model T starter cable wire seems to be somewhat hardened. I use wire from modern cables. It is much softer and more pliable. I run a single loop around the outside of the ears and make a twisted joint on the back side of the band. When removing the wire, I cut it one side of the twist and grasp it with pliers on the other side of the twist to pull it out. Others have used zip ties in place of the copper wire, but zip ties long enough to go around both ears ten to be a little more bulky than the wire.
I have this job to do within a couple of days, so I can take photos if there is any interest.

Allan from down under.

[Dan Hatch]

Tie wrap the the bands. Not around both ears on each side of bands just one ear on each side.

[hull 433]

Thanks for the replies! I did remove the magneto post, but forgot its still in the older hogshead photo I posted. I'll wire the bands and see where that goes. Allan, agree on zip ties, they would be pretty stubborn. Dan, tinge on one ear sounds like it would make it simpler to remove once in place, is that right?

I'll also look carefully to see if there is anything between the block and magneto that's holding things up. It's not easy to see on a car with a body in place. One thought is whether the clutch release ring isn't settling down completely onto the shaft, so I'll try to diagnose that to see if that's occurring or not. Scott, thanks for the good words, I'm very careful with this machine.

[RajoRacer]

I keep the clutch linkage hooked up as it gives you another (pedal) grabbing point so as to ease the clutch ring into position. Are you positive either of the low band ears is not interfering as you attempt to settle it down ? Ny-ties are the easiest to install & remove for me.

[hull 433]

The clutch linkage was posing an unrelated problem to the fitting of the hogshead. When set up, it forced the clutch pedal to the right of its ordinary position. I want to tackle the hogshead fit and then figure out the linkage.

The car was in the midst of re-restoration when it came to me, and part of that included new shafts for the transmission. There might be a clue there, but it doesn't answer the hogshead fit issue. Here's a photo.

[RajoRacer]

In THAT photo, clearly the band clamp is prohibiting the cover from seating. I've also used small diameter s.s. aircraft safety wire to hold the bands together. Are you using detachable ear bands ? If so, you might need to install with the ears on the passenger side (contrary to the T Bible) due to clearance issues - seems the rivet style provide more clearance than the slotted type.

[Scott_Conger]

Slim

look again at the car, as we on the interweb are looking at your latest photo: the bosses for the pedal shafts are laying on top of the "C" clamp - 100% certain of that.

Take the clamp off the bands, set it on the work bench, rotate the bands a little and lay the hogs head down...it WILL fit (thus everyone's admonition to use some wire ties.

In reality, right now with things in place, you can withdraw the "C" clamp and the cover will drop down...that's how the clamp is supposed to be used anyway

Finally, squirrel that clamp away and treasure it...they are hard to come by

[hull 433]

Here are some photos from this morning.

I removed the clip and tied the bands in place, but no dice, it would not settle down. The sticking point seems to be the clutch release ring, but not sure why. Getting closer . . .

[Scott_Conger]

Gotta say that the hogs head looks like it is fully (or much more) seated across the bands with the clip removed

you know which "groove" to fit the throw out bearing into, right?

I'd also ask if the pan has been straightened, and if possible, rotate the clutch throwout up and completely out of the way and see if the cover then seats...if it doesn't, it may be settling down on the 4th main and the 4th main is in fact not lined up with the pan properly (thus the straightening question)

[speedytinc]

Along those lines, how do the 4th main lower bolt holes line up to the pan?

[Allan]

You might double check that the clutch throwout has been fitted the right way round.
Off this thread, perhaps, I am not familiar with LHD covers. I would have thought that the clutch pedal shaft on an alloy cover should be the long one which engages in the adjuster. That shaft needs full support to reduce wear in the alloy housing. This should have no effect on the hanging up though.

Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

Allan, we are of like minds regarding the low-speed shaft. I am always surprised at the number of folks who advise that I am full of hooey on that, but that's what makes the world go 'round.

[RajoRacer]

Just from the above photos, that is a detachable ear stub shaft on the low pedal so not being answered regarding the detachable ear band question, one might assume the cover is hanging up on the band ears on the driver's side ?

[Mark Gregush]

Going to put a little devil in the details here. With the aluminum case, it has been suggested that using the shortened adjuster on the low band may not be the best move. The original setup, with the longer shaft may be the better way to go. It offers better support in that location and less wear to the hole on the driver's side. Not all hogs heads have room for the quick change bands, so may be as Steve suggest, the clip may not be allowing the casting to set all the way down.

[speedytinc]

A blow up of the bands in the horse shoe clip before the HH was mounted shows non demount able bands by my eyes. If demountable band were involved, they would contact the pedal bosses, but not a 1/4".

[RajoRacer]

Right you are John !

[hull 433]

Success! I turned up the clutch release ring as suggested and the hogshead settled down, nice and flush. So the sticking point is the clutch release ring or clutch spring, not the casting or the pan. So now to find out what exactly is going on here and solve it.

There are no words for how good it is to see this big fragile casting settle down nice and tight. Thanks for the advice and ideas. Here are some shots from today of the hogshead all settled down, and the clutch spring location.

The car was in the midst of re-restoration when it came to me, and while the engine was rebuilt, I don't think it had been fully reassembled when it arrived. So these are the usual bits necessary to get it sorted out and together.

[Scott_Conger]

Good for you...glad you're making headway

your bronze throw out bearing should be a loose and "slidey" fit within it's two holders, and the shaft itself should be free to slide to and fro within the casting. I would bet there is some sort of stiffness somewhere which is not allowing the bearing to flop and centralize itself over the collar.

here's a video of a well-worn but servicable assembly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfTBeDuglTw

I am going to guess that you do not have that generous slop available to you to allow for everything to align and live in harmony

Finally, that sure looks like a nicely made custom (new) part or a repro, as there are no run marks on it. If so, there is no telling what might be slightly off...with that said, I'd paint the entire part with a black "sharpie" pen, reinstall and while gently pushing "down" on the hogs head, have someone rotate the engine a few times...remove hogs head and see where the bronze is shiny again, and there is your contact point...now all you have to do is answer this simple question: "WHY"

[KimDobbins]

The clutch shaft looks like it new, the previous owner probably put a new slightly over sized shaft as well as nos fingers and horseshoe. One of the finger may be bent or the horseshoe a bit to wide? Sometimes nos parts were not used because of a mfg defect.

[Allan]

In the last photo, the clutch release fingers look to have almost no return on the end which engages on the grooved ring. If these are worn down, the ring will be in a different position, and so will the brass thrust collar. Or am I seeing things?

Allan from down under.

[hull 433]

The clutch release ring is definitely stiff, and doesn't swivel readily on the clutch release forks. The shaft does move somewhat freely within the hogshead casting though.

Kim, I think thats right, these parts all look like NOS and the clutch release ring has a Ford logo. I talked with a friend this morning who suggested using a block with 320 grit paper to carefully smooth out the surface. Marking the ring would be a good start to see where the problem is.

The slow speed connection and clevis are a similar issue with a very tight clevis pin. When linked up to the clutch pedal, threw the release ring out of alignment, and visa versa. This is something to solve after the hogshead is settled, but seems to share some common issues.

Here's the slow speed connection and clevis. The connection is oriented the wrong direction, mostly because I forgot to set it out properly when taking the photo.

[Allan]

There has to be a little slop in the clutch linkage, usually at the bent end. Because the pedal moves left and right in operation, There must be a smidgeon of play to allow this movement. I once found a linkage which had a ball joint on the pedal end, overkill, but a very neat fit.

Allan from down under.

[hull 433]

All done. I gently sanded the clutch release ring to fit, lubed as necessary, lay down the gaskets, felt and goo and watched it settle in. Today I installed the pedals and springs, removed the rags and fit up the cover. I was advised the hogshead would settle down overnight and it did, lots of careful adjusting back and forth with the bolts. Cotter pins and clutch linkage left to do but the magneto post is back on and hooked up.

It was a good weekend. Thanks everyone who answered and gave advice, I appreciate it very much. It helped figure out the issue, isolate it and address it safely and appropriately. Looking forward to the adjusting and final touches.

[Allan]

I've just finished fitting a starter hogshead on a RHD T. For the first time in many years, I suffered the dreaded dropped nut in the transmission. My own fault, as I did not follow my usual practice. In the end, it was a blessing, as removal of the hogshead revealed that some attention was needed to the pan surface adjacent to the pan arms.

Usually, I fit the cover with the springs and washers and nuts already on the shafts. On RHD cars only the clutch pedal has the notched nut and washer for internal adjustments. I usually fit the washer and wind the nut on 3 or 4 turns before lowering the cover over the band ears. That way there is no chance of dropping anything into the abyss. You might try doing the same on LHD covers, negating the need for rag stuffing etc.

Allan from down under.