Wheels turn when cranking.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:46 am

Sorry for all the questions guys,

I have just reassembled the engine and gearbox about 5 months ago. I have just installed the engine into the car and tried hand cranking to make sure everything is free. If I put the handbreak on I cannot crank it. If I put it in the middle and jack the wheels off the floor I can crank it but the wheels turn. Have I put something together incorrectly or does it need to be run and go through the gears to free everything up? If I pull the handbreak on the forks are free in the box.

Here is a video.

https://youtube.com/shorts/dg7Mt1BbWFA?feature=share

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:15 am

In your video, the transmission is shown in high gear, not neutral.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:44 am

No matter where I put it the wheels spin or with handbreak on the engine won't turn over.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:59 am

You may have a problem with the clutch/brake linkage adjustments on the transmission. With the handbrake lever in the vertical position, the clutch and parking brakes should be disengaged and the car should be in "neutral". The engine should turn freely and the car should be free to roll. With the lever forward all the way, the clutch should be engaged, the brakes off, and the car is then in "high gear". With the lever pulled all the way back, near the seat cushion, the car should be in "neutral" with the parking brakes set tight. The engine should turn freely, and the car should not roll. The lkinkage adjustments and transmission band adjustments must be done correctly for the car to operate as it should. Pushing the clutch pedal halfway down and holding it there should put the car in "neutral" as long as you hold the pedal halfway down.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:13 am

How long did it sit unused? Sometimes, the high speed clutch plates can stick together. If everything else looks okay, I'd jack up the rear wheels and start the engine. Let it run a while and warm up well. I would then try pulling back on the parking brake, (while the egnie is running), to see if the clutch releases. Had to do this exact thing for a friend who's T had not run in several years.

Be careful when running with the rear end jacked up and the wheels spinning. Block the front wheels and don't rev the engine.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:26 pm

There is no "running through the gears" in a Model T transmission. The same triple gears are used for low and reverse. In high the gears don't turn at all. I agree the most likely cause for being stuck in high gear would be clutch plates stuck together by congealed oil. If the car "ran when parked" the clutch probably didn't unadjust itself while sitting.

Erik Johnson · Post by **Erik Johnson** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:22 pm

Before you start making adjustments -

When installing the hogshead, you have to make sure that the clutch fork (clutch yoke) is seated properly in the clutch shift.

The clutch shift is on the driving plate shaft, fore of the clutch spring and clutch spring support and pin.

The clutch shift has two grooves. You need to make sure the clutch fork is seated in the rear groove.

When the clutch pedal is pushed, the clutch fork pushes the clutch shift rearward which, in turn, pushes the clutch spring rearward.

Once you have determined that the clutch fork is sitting correctly in the clutch shift, then make adjustments to the clutch linkeage to get your "free neutral."

Refer to this thread regarding the clutch fork:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1417879543

IMPORTANT: For the pre-1926 drive plates that correspond to the narrow brake drum, sometime during the production run there was a change where the three holes for the push ring were made smaller. Likewise, the pins on the corresponding revised push ring also have a smaller diameter.

Therefore, if you put the revised drive plate I described above on an earlier transmission that has the push ring with the larger pins, you need to ream the three corresponding holes in the drive plate. If you don't do this, the clutch will engage and the transmission will be stuck in high gear.

Conversely, you cannot use an earlier drive plate with a later push ring as the holes in the drive plate are too large for the push ring pins.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:07 pm

Here is the old and new drive plate. I hope I don't have to pull the engine back out. It's been out for 12 years.

Erik Johnson · Post by **Erik Johnson** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:55 pm

Those are brake drums.

Refer to the diagram I posted. Click on it to enlarge.

Post by **John kuehn** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:10 pm

When you first got the car did the engine turn over with the hand crank at all with the handbrake in any position? The correct position is having the hand brake straight up.

You haven’t mentioned if it did or didn’t.

Post by **speedytinc** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:29 pm

Myxr6turbo wrote: ↑
Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:07 pm
Here is the old and new drive plate. I hope I don't have to pull the engine back out. It's been out for 12 years.

Did you put the 6 clutch shoes back on?(not on lower drum pix)
I did recently work on a transmission with serious clutch sticking problems. The brake/clutch drum was replaced with a nos narrow drum that took the shoes. The shoes were left out. The clutch disks locked under the shoe securing notches. A remote possibility in your case also.
If the clutch disks are binding, put her in neutral & push the car back & forward to possibly free the disks up if only temporarily.

You put the transmission back together using the manual? Dumb question? There are those that have tried not using the book.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:00 pm

Follow these directions to set your "free neutral". If this doesn't work, you must have either a linkage problem. That is the link between the low pedal and the clutch lever at the side of the transmission, or the bolt is out of alignment with the cam on the parking brake cross shaft.
Anything else would be internally with the clutch disks and spring and would require dis assembly. The neutral should work when the clutch lever is about half way down. It would also work with the parking brake approximately half way between brake and high gear. Sometimes, the brake rods are tightened too far so that the lever does not push it into neutral until it goes into high gear.
Norm

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:57 pm

Sorry I should have put some context to the photo that's the only thing I replaced and yes I purchased new shoes.

I never turned the engine over when I purchased it as the condition was unknown.

I used the manual and also the modelt-Tips YouTube video.

I'll try adjusting for free neutral again from the manual.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:32 am

I looked at your video. I can see the brake drum turning and the reverse drum turning. it is a bit hard to see whether or not the low drum is turning. If it is not turning, you are in low gear, and if all three drums are turning, you are either in high or neutral. If all three are turning and you stop the wheels it kills the engine, then the clutch is not releasing. But if the low drum is not spinning with the others are, then you are stuck in low gear. Maybe the low band is too tight, or the band is bent or the lining is folded over at the end causing the low drum to drag. One other thing which sometimes happens is that the low notch and cam are worn out. However, when this is the case, your low drum will be blue and very likely has a crack.
I know this is all confusing, but there are quite a few things which can cause the wheels to turn when the engine is cranked. I wish I could come over and look personally, and I would like to see Australia some day, but I waited too long, and now don't leave the U.S.A. because of my health and age.
Norm

Post by **speedytinc** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:44 am

Did you lube the clutch disks when assembling? What did you use? motor oil? grease? Stuff like white lithium is like glue over time. Just a thought. It appears your clutch is locked up. If this is the case, running the motor with the wheels up & getting it hot may wash out the sticky stuff locking the disks. After a while running, try neutral, low & reverse to break the disks free.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:53 pm

Thanks guys,

All 3 are turning.

When I assemble it I just used normal engine oil between the disks.

I'll have another look tonight.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:00 pm

advice deleted

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:04 pm

I've encountered instances where the white assembly lube turned yellow over time and became waxy. Some types of grease will turn waxy and stiff when exposed to air for a long time. It's amazing how a little rust or goo can stick a clutch. I had one long dormant junkyard special on which I had to loosen the bell housing bolts a couple of turns, then hit the starter in order to break the rust bond between the clutch plate and flywheel.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:45 am

I have read everything I can and watched every video I can find to do with the gearbox and I have done everything correct from what I can remember. I have just adjusted everything again with no difference. Before I start it tomorrow (first time ever) I thought I would do a quick video to see if anyone could pick up on anything incorrect.

https://youtu.be/IKl56-gKFvI

Thanks again.

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:27 am

Linkage issue. See the manual. When the e brake lever is vertical, the cam should have pulled the clutch to neutral, disengaged. It does not. You are still in hi gear, no neutral. 10 degrees or so past vertical the cam engages & you have a neutral clutch. Very last of the video.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:17 am

Tighten that bolt a few turns, three or four, so the bolt will touch the cam before the emergency brake lever is vertical. This is only an estimate on the amount of turns on that bolt since physically being there with you may result in one turn or less. You should have a nut on that bolt to tighten your adjustment, without, the bolt will loosen and present you again with your problem.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:44 am

What John said.

With the brake lever (1) straight up or farther back, the speed lever (3) should be raising the clutch lever (2) for neutral. With the clutch lever down you are in high gear.

I doubt that adjusting the screw will fix this. I appears to me that the angle between your brake lever and your speed lever is about double what it should be.

Looking past the brake light switch here you can see that with the brake lever straight up the speed lever has raised the clutch lever for neutral. Comparing the two pictures, I may have been mistaken about the angle of your speed lever (cam). They appear very similar. Maybe a screw adjustment is all you need.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:04 am

advice deleted

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:27 am

Amen....Steve.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:53 pm

In Steve's picture, he has the bolt inserted the opposite way, which is threaded in from the bottom, it's just the same as my car. The head of the bolt has more mass to contact cam section, and in turn to take drivetrain out of direct drive. Locknut is threaded from the top and then secured to hold adjustment.

Post by **Will_Vanderburg** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:52 pm

Scott,

I have a TT handbrake assembly. The cam is taller than one for a car.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:22 pm

Thanks for that Will. I kind of thought that due to frame and mounting differences it might be longer. It's nice to know for sure. Not sure that the angle is different though, but in any event, something is certainly awry with what we're looking at and I am searching for an explanation for that fact other than a muffed repair in the past.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:31 pm

Thank you so much guys. What can cause this and what's the fix? Should I just cut the cam off and weld it back on? If someone has a video with the cover off the hogshead and showing the selector being moved that would be amazing.besides mine I have never seen one in the wild and when I got mine there were a few "alterations" done to it which has caused me a few headaches.

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate everyone's help.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:10 pm

Shawn.... Please check your email.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:12 pm

Shawn .. one of your few headaches looks like an earlier engine block matched up with a 26-27 transmission cover.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:12 pm

advice deleted

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:28 pm

Looking at a 1915 and a 1923, with the brake handle vertical the speed lever leans forward at an angle of 35º on both cars. Before you start changing anything, check your angle and see if it needs to be changed. I don't know if it's the same for all years, but on my cars the speed lever is pinned, not welded to the shaft. If your angle is wrong, and especially if the lever is welded, it's probably a home made bungle. Or, as Scott suggests, maybe the brake handle is pinned at the wrong angle. The dip in the controller shaft (under the drive shaft) should be exactly vertical when the brake lever is vertical.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:01 am

Really quick update. After 40 years the model t started and ran. It was running rough as one of the coils is average and one of my new spark plug terminal has broken away and the entire rod comes out or the plug so replaced it with an old plug

After running it and pressing every peddle possible the disks are still stuck.

I'll pull ithe engine out this weekend.

Question: do i need to remove the pan to remove the gearbox assembly? Last time i had everything on the engine stand.

While the engine is out ill check and fix the brake handle.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:10 am

Shawn, Yes.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:30 am

Before removing the engine, check and fix the brake handle FIRST. If correcting the brake handle and double checking all external adjustments does not get the clutch working, the next step would be to remove the hogshead and look for any problems with the internal clutch adjustments and linkages.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:38 am

I don't know if they're available in Oz, but Autolite 3095 plugs are cheap and work as well as anything, at least in the short term. A set of new ones is an inexpensive experiment to see if your old plugs are a problem.

Yes, the engine has to be out of the car with the pan removed to dig into the transmission. But I'm with Pat. I would not pull the engine before fixing that speed lever/clutch lever mismatch. Have you measured the angle of your speed lever? Is it the correct 35º? Is the brake handle directly in line with the control shaft dip?

Post by **speedytinc** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:13 am

You can disconnect the parking brake rods & pull back the lever more to get your clutch cam in a functional position.
Not sure if the question was answered on what lube was used during clutch assembly.
I would be getting the motor hot & alternating forward & reverse to free up the clutch. Compare the service manual to what you did if you didnt follow the book step by step.
Unless you know or suspect how you screwed up the assembly, work around the edges before pulling the motor.

Post by **Moxie26** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:38 pm

Speedytinc. ..., Why don't you post here on the Forum and tell Shawn , how to adjust the bolt against the cam to get transmission out of direct drive and obtain a neutral. We all look forward to your guidance in solving problems.

Post by **speedytinc** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:58 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:38 pm
Speedytinc. ..., Why don't you post here on the Forum and tell Shawn , how to adjust the bolt against the cam to get transmission out of direct drive and obtain a neutral. We all look forward to your guidance in solving problems.

Look @ & follow the service manual!!!!! I would not presume to describe the process better than Ford. I, myself, refer to the manual often.
You might want to re-read the post completely. Note, someone has provided the adjustment diagram from said manual.

In this case, There is a problem with the parking brake lever/unit. Adjusting the bolt wont fix that. It is already adjusted fine.
Look @ the video he provided.
Is this his only problem? Stuck disks also? Assembled wrong? Hopefully its something easy, not requiring a tear down.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:56 pm

Ok I'll keep trying to free it up. When I started it yesterday I removed the handbrake rods and then pulled the leaver all the way back so neutral was fully engaged but no brakes.

Post by **speedytinc** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:40 pm

Myxr6turbo wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:56 pm
Ok I'll keep trying to free it up. When I started it yesterday I removed the handbrake rods and then pulled the leaver all the way back so neutral was fully engaged but no brakes.

Did you have a neutral? Low & reverse & brake pedals function? If so, your problem is limited to your hand brake/cam unit clocked wrong.
If you have the 3 pedal functions, but still a sticking clutch, Lets hope running will free it up with a good, fresh oil bath.
If you still dont have a neutral, then that means big work.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:49 pm

Besides the handbrake lever, clutch pedal, and related parts and adjustments, isn't the adjustment of the three clutch fingers under the hogshead also important for the clutch to release properly? /

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:47 pm

When I pulled the handle all the way back the big spring in the box was pulled back and the 3 fingers were "lose". If the 3 fingers are "lose " does that mean neutral?

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:59 pm

Yes that's right.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:58 pm

Perfect. So at least I know the car is in neutral. I'll keep adjusting and trying to free it up.

Thanks again everyone. I'll keep you updated.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:58 am

You guys are amazing! So what's that old saying? It's not stupid if it works

it's still a little tight but the rear wheels are on the floor and I can now crank it by hand. Strange what ideas you come up with at 3am.

I ha e looked at the handle and it seems to me that the handle and the arms under the car are inline.

I have made a few adjusents. Does it look better?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:24 am

That looks better, but the cam that the adjustment bolt rides on is too far forward when the lever is straight up. It looks like the clutch is not being fully released when the lever is straight up.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:40 am

So the only way to fix that would be to pull the pin from the cam and move it and drill a new hole?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:45 am

That's what it looks like from here. On my '26-27 car, the cam lever appears to be about 20 degrees forward of vertical when the hand lever is straight up. The adjustment bolt contacts the cam face just a little past the sharply-curved part. Yours seems to be contacting the sharply-curved part. I don't think that is correct. I don't have a way to post a picture, or I would.

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:59 am

Ok, so the selector is in the correct spot for low/neutral? If so should the bolt be on the highest part of the cam?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:26 am

With the hand lever straight up, the bolt should be on the highest part of the cam, just past the sharply curved portion of the cam. On my car, that has the adjustment bolt pointing straight toward the "stem" of the mushroom-shaped cam.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:51 am

Your adjusting bolt (clutch lever screw) is turned in almost as far as it will go. That leaves no space for a locking nut and may be overkill. Back it off as far as you can without losing your neutral. That may change its angle to better coincide with the high part of the speed lever. It might also help if you widen the business end of the adjusting screw by turning it around with the head down. If it's a modern bolt, grind off the raised markings. A locking nut can go on top of the clutch lever (See my 8:44 AM 8-30-22 photo above).

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:06 am

Advice deleted

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:12 pm

advice deleted

Post by **Moxie26** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:36 pm

Shawn ..... There may be a local Model T man close to your area..Mitch Taylor at the Taree Historic Motor Club. I'm sure if he could pay you a visit you would have accurate first hand educated help.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:58 pm

Mitch is hundreds of miles from Shawn.
Maybe some closer Model T folks can be found here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/aussiemodelt

or here:
https://mtfcv.com/

Post by **Moxie26** » Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:36 pm

Thanks Steve for the added information for Shawn

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:17 am

A question for the Australian people. Is there anyone in Australia repairing Model T coils? Preferably in Melbourne.

Post by **Moxie26** » Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:47 pm

Hey Shawn.... Try to locate somebody in a car club or local model T chapter, there should be someone there that has some knowledge on rebuilding coils and to do it right for you. Cost prohibitive? I would think so as far as sending out of the country with postal charges and tax levies., .. and possible hold on postal inspection.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:20 pm

I would be astonished if there's not somebody in Oz who rebuilds coils. Check with the FB page and the club I linked above. You might find somebody nearby, or you might have to ship them, but I'm sure you won't have to send them out of the country.

Post by **Moxie26** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:03 pm

Shawn .. ... Any progress on the request you had to have your coils rebuilt?

Myxr6turbo · Post by **Myxr6turbo** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:47 pm

I've found 4 (out of 7) that seem to be working ok so I haven't looked around. My next step is to fix the handbrake so it's safe.

Thanks for checking in Moxie.

Post by **Moxie26** » Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:59 pm

Shawn ..... Have the brake lever in the vertical neutral position, pull back two clicks, underneath pull disconnected brake rods and leave slight slack, adjust clevis on rod to reconnect to cross shaft, and snug up lock nut to clevis. Test on dirt road, pull emergency brake at slow speed , and if car favors left or right to stop that side is grabbing before the other side.... adjust as needed. Car should stop straight on . Let us know of your progress