New Day Timer expectations.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I installed a brand new New Day timer just prior to the Hamilton, Ohio tour and it performed well for that tour with the exception of the last day when I developed a small skip. I installed my spare set of coils at the lunch stop and all seemed well on the ride back. The car was not driven any since that tour. As I was loading the car to go to the Ohio Jamboree, it started easily but was running raggedy for about a minute and then stopped suddenly with a loud bang. As I tried restarting it (-by hand crank) it kept kicking and finally when the engine would start, it would run as if the spark plug wires were crossed. I just left it where it was in the shop, loaded another T and headed on to Ohio. This morning I removed the timer and below is what I saw. I am guessing this timer has less than 500 total miles. The cover was installed concentric with the cam, and a small amount of Anderson lube (-from Tip Top Timers) was used during installation. It still looks like the brush has smeared the bakelite causing it to carbon track. Thoughts? Did I not use enough lube or is this just the mileage life expectation for one of these??

[TXGOAT2]

DO NOT USE ANY LUBE IN A NEW DAY STYLE TIMER. Clean all the lube residue out of the timer and rotor and it may be OK. Also be sure that the timer wires are not chafed at the clips that hold the wire loom or in the area around the timer where they may rub against the engine block or spark control rod. Any short here will be likely to cause the engine to fire out of time or miss. Be sure the area around where the timer mounts is clean. A New Day style timer can last indefinitely when used with a good set of well-adjusted coils and kept free of oil and grease.

[John.Zibell]

Have you tried a different timer to see if the condition goes away? I just installed one of the New Day timers and also used the same grease. When I wiped out the timer after 50 miles I did see grease deposits on the contacts, but so far the car is running well. When it stops raining here I will drive her some more.

[John.Zibell]

DO NOT USE ANY LUBE ON A NEW DAY STYLE TIMER. Clean all the lube residue out of the timer and rotor and it may be OK. Also be sure that the timer wires are not chafed at the clips that hold the wire loom or in the area around the timer where they may rub the engine block or spark control rod. Any short here will be likely to cause the engine to fire out of time or miss.

Installation instruction say to grease the inside of the timer and to then wipe it out after 50 miles.

[TXGOAT2]

What brand timer is it?

[John.Zibell]

What brand timer is it?

The one produced by Tip Top timers.

[DanTreace]

Installation instruction say to grease the inside of the timer and to then wipe it out after 50 miles.

Just installed a Tip Top New Day, the instructions say nothing about grease or oil to this timer. They must run dry.

And use a modern cam grease seal, don’t use the felt and tin/brass shield over it. Don’t use the shield either, it can bounce and contact the brush sleeve on the camshaft.

Clean them every season, blow out with air or wipe the fine dust debris off the contact surfaces inside the case.

[TXGOAT2]

In the picture above, it appears from the wear track's position that the timer rotor is running way off center. If the timer body was installed and seated correctly in the timing cover, that would indicate that the timing cover on the engine is off center relative to the camshaft. No timer will operate correctly under those conditions. I have run a Tip Top timer many thousands of miles with no lube whatsoever. New Day timer issues that I have had were related to coil problems and coil adjustment problems and when the coil issues were eliminated, timer issues also were eliminated.

[TXGOAT2]

NO greasy kid's stuff!

[John kuehn]

Nothing wrong with the timer. It needs to be wiped out clean and your good to go. If you think it needs some type of lube don’t use much as that can be an issue. The intermittent skips aren’t always the timer whichever kind you use. If alignment, coils, no loose wires, and etc is OK the timer will be too.
I have to agree that the wear tracks aren’t centered. The timing gear cover isn’t centered.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

In the picture above, it appears from the wear track's position that the timer rotor is running way off center. If the timer body was installed and seated correctly in the timing cover, that would indicate that the timing cover on the engine is off center relative to the camshaft. No timer will operate correctly under those conditions. I have run a Tip Top timer many thousands of miles with no lube whatsoever. New Day timer issues that I have had were related to coil problems and coil adjustment problems and when the coil issues were eliminated, timer issues also were eliminated.

Look again fellers, ...I think what you are seeing is the angle the picture was taken. The outside of the wear pattern is concentric all around the terminals. Nonetheless, any tiny amount of eccentricity of the timing cover likely would have little to do with the wear itself seen in the plastic.


As far as the lube, I used their lube and only a very minute amount. I will wipe it out, clean the contacts, re-install and report back.

[Bruce Compton]

I agree with John and Pat that the timer was not centered. You say that the cover is concentric with the cam so the only thing left is the improper mounting of the timer on to the cover. From the wear pattern it's pretty obvious that it's not even close, and I'm surprised it ran at all for any length of time. I made up a tool that seats inside the New Day timer with fine emery paper glued to it that fits into my drill press. Holding the timer up against the tool cleans and re-surfaces the contacts in a minute or so and it's like new again.

[John.Zibell]

Installation instruction say to grease the inside of the timer and to then wipe it out after 50 miles.

Just installed a Tip Top New Day, the instructions say nothing about grease or oil to this timer. They must run dry.

And use a modern cam grease seal, don’t use the felt and tin/brass shield over it. Don’t use the shield either, it can bounce and contact the brush sleeve on the camshaft.

Clean them every season, blow out with air or wipe the fine dust debris off the contact surfaces inside the case.

Dan, The included instruction sheet says to grease, run for 50 miles then wipe out. So you are saying not to follow the manufacture's instructions? Also as stated by others it appears the timer causing problems was not centered. If I still have the little sheet I'll post a picture of it.

[Mark Chaffin]

Also not uncommon to have a short between the timer contact and lower timing cover to pan bolt when advancing / retarding your spark lever at this point.

[John.Zibell]

Photo of instruction included with the timer.

[Norman Kling]

I have never ran a new new day, but I do have experience with the older ones made before 1990. The first T I bought in 1989 had a New Day on it and still does. I have had no problems with that timer and have been on many long tours with the car. Only time I wiped out the timer was when I had to pull the engine to replace the magneto. It even ran fine for 10 years while the magneto was out. I used 6 volt battery all that time. Now the magneto works and it runs smoothly and is a bit faster than on battery.
I found another used New Day and ran it on another T I have for quite a few years, but the brush wore out and was tilted to one side, so I replaced it with an Anderson. That timer works very well too.
I thought from your picture that perhaps the timer was not centered, but came to the conclusion it was the angle of the picture which made it look that way. However, I see that you ran the wire behind the timer and under the timing rod. That could very easily ground that wire and it might even change with advance or retard. I would recommend that you run that wire over the top of the rod and away from it. Also look at all the other wires for possible contact with the bolts which bolt the crankcase to the front of the engine. They should be head up with nut down so there is no interference with the wires. One other thing would be possible wire contact with the fan belt when you advance the spark.
Other than that, I would suspect the coils, coil box, or spark plugs.
Norm

[DanTreace]

Photo if instruction included with the timer.

John

That small sheet wasn’t in my New Day box, an 8x10 front and back instruction. Front gives install. Back gives hints for best ignition using coils and the New Day. No mention of lube.

[RajoRacer]

Regardless of the camera "angle" one can visually see the amount of untouched brass contact segment showing on each contact and they do not appear to be equal so something isn't centered.

John - was your timer ordered from Hutch directly or another vendor ? Same question to you also Brent.

[Oldav8tor]

I bought my New Day direct from Hutch at TipTop - at that time (2019) they said nothing about lube or I missed it. This is what my timer and brush looked like after 5400 miles. I did clean the cap with some fine sandpaper before taking the photo.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

I would say it is a sloppy fitting brush that’s pivoting or rocking and causing uneven contact and wear.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/7 ... 1501892976

[Rich P. Bingham]

FWIW dept. :
When I "built" my first T as a callow 14 yr. old, I knew nothing of centering the timing gear cover over the camshaft. If the "green bible" mentioned it, I missed it. Consequently, I was unsuccessful getting the Ford roller timer to work, but swapping for a well-used New Day, enjoyed many trouble-free miles !

In latter days, criticism of some reproduction New Day brushes faults them for being neither precise enough nor robust enough to perform as well as period originals. Also, some have come under fire for bodies being made of composites that don't give adequate service.

I theorize the New Day configuration is forgiving of an off center cover. Perhaps others can comment ?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Brent,

I have to agree with those who say the timer was not centered. I don't think camera angle explains the eccentric wear pattern. Also, look at the wear patterns on the face of the timer housing. Makes it it appear as if the timer was tipped and not fully seated in the recess, causing the ridge on the timing cover to wear into the face of the timer.

Screenshot 2022-09-06 120908.png (373.24 KiB) Viewed 8472 times

[Rich P. Bingham]

Jerry, I agree ! That one ran Way off center !!

[TXGOAT2]

It looks way off center, tipped, and filthy. The grunge on housing looks like greasy dirt from the timing cover. The filth on contact face is probably from lubricant, but could also be dirt from timing cover. I think that New Day type timers are a little more forgiving of misalignment than the roller style, in that they are less likely to skip at high speed, but I believe that running one off-center will affect timing balance between cylinders, which will make for a rougher running engine. If the timer case is out of plane with the camshaft (tipped) the brush will tend to dig into the contact face for part of its travel, and it may be too far from the contact face on the other part of its travel. It will cause excess wear of the brush in its holder, too. Bad cam bearings can also cause issues, and oil leaking into the timer from the front cam bearing will cause issues.

[speedytinc]

Was it installed properly with regard to the brush height & timer face?
Did/does the timer dance around when running? It has that look.
The timer looks to have been run way off center. (optical delusion?) The timer looks to be offset more than 1/8". I dont think thats possible, unless it is run outside the cast recess that it is supposed to sit in. Could that explain the odd edge marks?
To run a new day successfully one must install a modern lip seal to keep it dry inside. That much off center on the timing cover isnt possible with a seal.

[TXGOAT2]

I think it probably does explain the marks in the goo. I'd take the fan belt off and clean everything up and put the car outside for good light and then reassemble everything. All the dirt and grease need to be removed, including down in the sharp corners.

[Tmooreheadf]

During the Ohio Jamboree this weekend, there were three reported failures using what folks were talking the newest version of the new day timer. One was a darker brown color while the other two were grayish in color. All three reported 800 miles or less. All three ran fine for the first 400 to 600 mile range. A simple change to another new day and brush in all three instances made the cars perform great again. Inside look like the photo above and all three had brushes that were heavily worn, indicating a lot more miles of usage than were actually reported.
These were just observations made and reports from the drivers of these cars! Not my personal experience.

[DanTreace]

My experiences with Tip Top new Day (purchased thru Lang's) is very good. Have two on running Ts.

Here is my latest install on the '12 project, have not run yet, but did crank it around many times dry, without ignition, to check timing and how the brush was tracking. You can see the faint imprint of the brush on the 4 contact surfaces.

Use modern seal with good sealer, to prevent leaks of oil to the timer case and brush, the New Day is to be run as dry as possible.

It is very important to center the front plate, check the brush fit, be sure no contact of the brush steel barrel on the front plate anywhere, and be sure the flag terminals don't hit any grounds.

[John kuehn]

One thing that’s not been mentioned is the timer hold down clamp.

If the timer clamp is not holding the timer down the timer will either move up and down or in and out. Yes the timer itself is supposed to be inside the casting ring on the timer cover. But at the same time tight enough to hold it in place securely and NOT to tight. The timing adjustment rod also can pull the timer sideways if the rods connection at the timer case isn’t angled or bent just right.

[speedytinc]

During the Ohio Jamboree this weekend, there were three reported failures using what folks were talking the newest version of the new day timer. One was a darker brown color while the other two were grayish in color. All three reported 800 miles or less. All three ran fine for the first 400 to 600 mile range. A simple change to another new day and brush in all three instances made the cars perform great again. Inside look like the photo above and all three had brushes that were heavily worn, indicating a lot more miles of usage than were actually reported.
These were just observations made and reports from the drivers of these cars! Not my personal experience.

There has been past issues with new days.(for decades) The problem was inferior repops where the insulator material was too soft. The greys are very soft. Junk. There are soft browns also. I buy a lot of them to rebuild. The test is to place in a palm & squeeze. If there is any deflection, pass on it. The original new days were made of a tough phenolic type material & I understand the new version is also.

[TRDxB2]

Brent,

I have to agree with those who say the timer was not centered. I don't think camera angle explains the eccentric wear pattern. Also, look at the wear patterns on the face of the timer housing. Makes it it appear as if the timer was tipped and not fully seated in the recess, causing the ridge on the timing cover to wear into the face of the timer.

Screenshot 2022-09-06 120908.png

I also agree with it being off center. If it were an optical illusion all the "circles" on the same surface, plane, would appear distorted equally. The yellow tracking marks appear equally spaced but off the orange center. In addition the smear of grease across the 3'oclock & 9o'clock contacts are not the same and that cannot be caused by a camera angle.
The circles formed by the cap bottom & top are not on the same plane

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

It could also be that the timer is lifting or tilting out of position while running or adjusting timing due to poor tension on the center by the holding clamp because it’s bent or loose.

[speedytinc]

It could also be that the timer is lifting or tilting out of position while running or adjusting timing due to poor tension on the center by the holding clamp because it’s bent or loose.

It wouldnt necessarily be a weak arm, but the brush and/or holder forcing the timer body out of position because of their assembled height thats more than the timer face.
Does the timer dance about whall running?

[Bill Robinson]

Folks who know Brent Terry know 2 things about him. 1. He is a perfectionist- just go to his professional Model T shop and you will see what I mean. 2. He is a man that does what he says he's going to do and you can believe what he says. If he says that he centered the front plate- I believe him.

What I'm getting at is this- Is it possible that the camshaft itself is causing the off-center situation? The plate could be centered when #1 fires, but by the time the camshaft rotates 180 deg, something gets quirkey, and the system doesn't fire correctly.

[RajoRacer]

There are TWO different centering tools BUT only ONE centers properly !!! Only the large diameter tool correctly centers the timing cover.

[speedytinc]

There are TWO different centering tools BUT only ONE centers properly !!! Only the large diameter tool correctly centers the timing cover.

Agreed, the tool needs to pick up the timer body recess.

Verify that this tool you are relying on "actually" centers the cam to the timing cover.

I bought a nice aluminum billet tool(Z numbered), where the center hole was off center .010-.015.
I had to re machine the center hole & bush back up to correct the error.

Trust but verify.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Folks who know Brent Terry know 2 things about him. 1. He is a perfectionist- just go to his professional Model T shop and you will see what I mean. 2. He is a man that does what he says he's going to do and you can believe what he says. If he says that he centered the front plate- I believe him.

What I'm getting at is this- Is it possible that the camshaft itself is causing the off-center situation? The plate could be centered when #1 fires, but by the time the camshaft rotates 180 deg, something gets quirkey, and the system doesn't fire correctly.

I agree on both of your points. However, things may have gotten "out of place" during operation. I have every reason to believe the plate is/was centered. I'm just thinking, the timer popped out of place during operation. What made it do that, I cannot say. It would also explain the backfiring and out-of-time behavior, since a displaced timer might also cause the wiring terminals to make contact with ground. Simply my theory.

[Ed Fuller]

I have been running a “new” New Day timer on my speedster for the last two years without any problems. I have pulled it off a few times to check it and clean it. No issues whatsoever. I have never lubricated it.

[Ron Patterson]

I agree with the observations of Jerry Van and John Karvaly; what are those odd wear marks on the face of the timer case at 7PM and 10PM?
If they really exist how did they get there? Surely anything that looks like that wear were not there when the timer was initially installed.
Johns comments about "timer case dancing" on the front plate are a possibility and a commonly known problem.
Could it be that this car has one of those camshaft timing gears with the thick web that allowed the timer brush to slightly lift the timer case off the front plate counter bore and ultimately pushed the cast outside the bore?
That could explain Brent's initial good results that went downhill?
Ron Patterson

[Bill Robinson]

Back to my question:
Is it possible that the camshaft itself is causing the off-center situation? Bent, warped, worn bushing(s)?

If there is lateral movement in the camshaft, it seems to me the brush would not run true since it is attached to the camshaft.

Is this situation too far-fetched that it could not happen? I mean, how many of you experienced men check the center on the front plate on all 4 cylinders? Or, only on #1 while you are setting 15 deg past TDC?

[RajoRacer]

Dan T. - can't say I've ever seen the reversal of the screws & flag terminals like you did.

[DanTreace]

Bill

Could be, but the forward facing brush of the New Day can compensate for worn cam wobble.

Have mostly seen the issue of the timer spring being too loose. One fellow was complaining of missing, so we started the T and it was missing some.

After lifting the right side of the hood, one glance told the story, the timer case was wobbling with each revolution of the motor. Fix was removing the well worn timer shield with edges so sharp and ragged from swiveling under the case. There is risk without it that the felt seal behind the rotor can get wound up, but we needed a road fix. Suggested a modern seal be placed.

Then we tightened up the timer strap spring, (had to bend it just a bit), to make the case firm in the front plate. The timer case should turn some, but should be rather snug, with some resistance in its movement. The leverage of the timer rod and the timer lever at the top of the steering wheel easily overcomes a nice firm timer case.

[DanTreace]

Dan T. - can't say I've ever seen the reversal of the screws & flag terminals like you did.

Steve

Yep, learned to do that after seeing other's with issues of those large flag terminals or wires pinched there and hitting stuff.


Only the New Day has its terminals facing forward, other timer cases (with exception of the Eagle and Turner Short-Proof) the terminals are concentric with the case. Nice thing is the New Day case is an insulator, so any scrub of wires on it won't cause trouble.

So putting the flag behind the case prevents contact from mal-positioned fan belts, or bolts and nuts in the fly zone of the timer case

[RajoRacer]

I like that - might have to "borrow" your technique !

[Ron Patterson]

Ford recognized the problem with timer case wiring routing in the and created a solution.\
See attached photos.

[Tadpole]

Not to add confusion to this big thread, but I have had similar trouble with my New Day after installing a new brush and over tightening the cam nut, causing the brush to sit crooked.

[Alan Long]

I believe that the issues has been well discussed and the problem discovered. However, I always wonder if excessive Camshaft end float could cause issues with this style of Timer?? I would also treat this Timer as I do with a Distributor Cap and Rotor and not use any Lube. I’m surprised by those Instructions.
Alan In Western Australia

[TRDxB2]

Don't overlook that the initial problem description stated "I am guessing this timer has less than 500 total miles." So the problem started after sometime - and the lube was not wiped off after 50 miles as instructed. So while it was installed correctly, something changed in the last mile or so.

[speedytinc]

I believe that the issues has been well discussed and the problem discovered. However, I always wonder if excessive Camshaft end float could cause issues with this style of Timer?? I would also treat this Timer as I do with a Distributor Cap and Rotor and not use any Lube. I’m surprised by those Instructions.
Alan In Western Australia

...end float...?
Yes, it could be an issue. The relationship of the brush holder & brush to the cam cover & timer face must be checked & verified for the cams positions of fully in & out. As presumed in this case, the timer brush must not be able to stick out further than the timer body face.

However a properly set cam cant move more than a few thousands & isnt an issue.

What can cause more movement? Loose cam bearing in the block with a worn cam retaining screw. Worn or bad cam bearing split. Worn cam bearing @ the heel.(pre 24 cam) or a complete lack of heel on a reground cam. [I have seen this account for 1/8"+ additional forward movement & make for a knock that sounds like a rod]

These situations can be mitigated with a cam front thrust washer setup. On a heel ground away cam its mandatory per dealers instructions.

[J1MGOLDEN]

An earlier post a few years ago claimed the brush spring was too strong and about three or four loops had to be cut off to avoid Brents situation.

[Will_Vanderburg]

Every New Day timer I ever bought has NEVER said anything about lubing it whatsoever

[Original Smith]

I use originals in all of my T's. Never have problems. I blow them out about every 3000 miles, and lightly sand the surface. I don't know about the current offerings, but a lot of the repros I've seen have a wider brush than originals.

[TWrenn]

All this just makes me love my TW timers all the more! Knock wood...been the best, smoothest timer I've seen...of course I'm no expert, every week I'm still learning something new all the time it seems. The "new New Day" (not one with the dreaded "S" on it) that I still have, that constantly gave me trouble, sits in the '13 only as an amergency spare. Doubt I'll ever need it. But maybe a companion tourer will out on tour someday.