Found in screen magnet Watts clutch questions

[Craig Leach]

I hate finding things in a engine especially when I can't figure out what the heck it is. Anyone have a idea?

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Craig.

[speedytinc]

It looks like maybe one of those removable clutch shoes. Its not uncommon. There was a bunch sold aftermarket that crack, break & make their way out. I bough one T that had this issue.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Turn it on its edge. Let's see how thick and how flat it is.

[Norman Kling]

It doesn't look quite like mine, but knocking around inside, could have changed the shape. I lost the funnel from the inside oil line on one of my cars and it took out the magneto. I drove on battery for about 10 years and then decided to repair the magneto, and found mine laying on the bottom of the crankcase. It could even be something which fell in at some time the inspection cover was removed. If you haven't owned the car since the last time you had a complete overhaul, it could have fallen before you owned the car. I would be interested to find out what it is, when you find out. Keep us posted.
Norm

[Craig Leach]

Sorry Guy's I should have given more info to start. I'm real busy getting ready for a school presentation in the morning. I hate loading
in the dark. This was found in my 22 speedster. The trans is made up of pre 24 part's, No clutch lug shoes, No Mag, slingers are made
of aluminum the piece is.037 thick,.87 long, .247 wide. It's steel with a dark color where not worn. The unbroken edge is straight &
it is flat. No curve or radios anywhere. That eliminates a piece of clutch disc, trans thrust washer, piece of band. It is to thick to be
part of the oil funnel. The car has over 700 miles of rode hard & put away wet, No joke the last 30+ miles where in the pouring rain.
on this oil change, no issues at all. I can not rap my mind around what this could be. I deeply appreciate any thoughts you guys have.
If it had lug shoes I would know that I had to pull the engine to make repairs. So I'm at a quandary as to what to do. Any thoughts
are welcome.
Craig.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Norm,
I have owned the car for 16 years and I'm the only one that has worked on it that hole time. That's what has me so perplexed. I did have a
outside oiler scoop get torn off three years ago but it was made out of 22 gauge cold rolled steel and was much brighter color and I was
sure that I accounted for all of it. I think the starter & inspection cover are coming off. This engine has over a 1000 miles of hard running
won't hurt to check the rods anyway.
Craig.

[AZTerry]

Hello Craig,

Maybe Cody threw it in your engine after you scared the living daylights out of him on the San Diego speedster run.
I couldn't resist the comment.



Now for real, how about the corner off of a six sided clutch disc.

Terry

[Kerry]

Check your clutch spring support cup.

[Craig Leach]

Terry I will compare it to a clutch disc tomorrow after the school presentation. That could be it. Has anyone seen a 3329 clutch disc,
large, fracture like that? That would be a shame that's the first time I put a stock clutch back in a T trans. I don't think Cody would do
that But then maybe I shouldn't have dirt tracked the the speedster around that one corner. Some people don't think the rear wheels
should lead the fronts around a corner especially on asphalt.
Craig.

[Craig Leach]

Frank, Ill check that too I should be able to see if that's it.
Craig.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I think I'd be curious enough to measure the thickness of a transmission band to see if it matches up. I know you kinda' ruled that out, but I dunno'

[speedytinc]

Terry I will compare it to a clutch disc tomorrow after the school presentation. That could be it. Has anyone seen a 3329 clutch disc,
large, fracture like that? That would be a shame that's the first time I put a stock clutch back in a T trans. I don't think Cody would do
that But then maybe I shouldn't have dirt tracked the the speedster around that one corner. Some people don't think the rear wheels
should lead the fronts around a corner especially on asphalt.
Craig.

It does look like a piece of outer clutch disk.
I have never seen a piece of disk broke off. I have seen a few cracked thru in one spot.

[George House]

Ya think ya still have all your oil slingers fastened to the flywheel ?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Terry I will compare it to a clutch disc tomorrow after the school presentation. That could be it. Has anyone seen a 3329 clutch disc,
large, fracture like that? That would be a shame that's the first time I put a stock clutch back in a T trans. I don't think Cody would do
that But then maybe I shouldn't have dirt tracked the the speedster around that one corner. Some people don't think the rear wheels
should lead the fronts around a corner especially on asphalt.
Craig.

It does look like a piece of outer clutch disk.
I have never seen a piece of disk broke off. I have seen a few cracked thru in one spot.

I was wondering how it could be a piece of clutch disc, but I can see it now. Yes, I believe you're correct!

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[Craig Leach]

Ding Ding Ding We have some winners, after Terry posted last night I had to go get a disc to compare. SCMTC had a school presentation
this morning so I didn't have time to post this morning. It sure looks like it came off a clutch disc. I also have seen cracked ones but
never like this. Defiantly constitutes the removal of the engine. dadburnit cheese&crackers got allmuddy!#*%$#!

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Craig.

[J1MGOLDEN]

It looks like the cut off end of a square shank screwdriver shaft that got picked up by a magnet while the flywheel was on a work bench.

[Craig Leach]

Ok been busy with other cars and just got back to the found in screen issue. So I pulled the engine, hogshead & pan. found another
broken piece in the front of the pan that means it made it from the clutch all the way to the front of the engine. Disassembled
the clutch and found 4 cracked large plates. I have never seen this before, anyone else found this and figured out what causes it?
These is the ( best as I can tell) original clutch to this engine. I ran this clutch for over 7 years in this engine and found no issue so
I put it back in. It was dark colored before but smooth & flat. It worked good before and was working fine even after it started
shedding pieces?
Craig.

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[Steve Jelf]

I haven't taken apart dozens of clutches, but I've done maybe a dozen and I haven't seen anything like this. I'll be interested to see what the more experienced folks have to say about it.

[dykker5502]

Now when it's a Speedster, I wonder how you change gear to high. Personally I try to do it slow and gentle, rest a little while while in neutral allowing the engine revs to settle down before releasing the pedal in high. I have however seen people just releasing the pedal quick and leaving it to the rather forgiven original clutch design to take care of the difference in speed of engine and transmission. I could suspect that a Speedster could make one do switch like that for quick acceleration.
All my clutches have been "upgraded" to modern type with the clear neutral when possible, but also with the nonforgiven switch which of course is why my driving style have turned into what is described above. My 14 Touring still have the original clutch and I drive that the same way.

That said, the clutch should be able to handle however we may see just an example of fatigue. After all it is 100 years old and may have been driven all 100 years.

[speedytinc]

I have seen a disk or 2 cracked in a clutch pack, but never chunks off disks.
Are these disks from a non shoed drum?
The disks hanging up in nasty notches worn into the drum lugs I suspect.

[John kuehn]

I have a half bucket full of clutch discs I’ve saved from transmission tare downs over the years and found a few cracked discs that I’ve thrown away but never any small pieces or chunks of discs. I’ve saved the good discs.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

... I wonder how you change gear to high. Personally I try to do it slow and gentle, rest a little while in neutral allowing the engine revs to settle down before releasing the pedal in high. I have however seen people just releasing the pedal quick and leaving it to the rather forgiven original clutch design to take care of the difference in speed of engine and transmission. I could suspect that a Speedster could make one do switch like that for quick acceleration.

I have the same questions/suspicions that Michael has. Also, wondering how good your clutch spring is. Looks like a lot of slippage and heat has been going on.

[TXGOAT2]

Jerky shifts, lugging the engine, and worn parts could all contribute to cracks at that location. Running a worn Ujoint probably would, too.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Guys,
This car has a Ruckstell with a 3:1 ring & pinion. The engine is stock inside with a Model A carb. & a header. I have a foot throttle to
make shifting easier so shifts are smooth. The brake drum was used when I installed it and I filed the lugs to remove any grooves.
I installed a new spring when the engine was assembled. I even had someone that I value their 0ppinion look at the clutch before
installing. He did point out that I filed the lugs and asked how I measured the amount of material that was removed? To be honest I
didn't I filed them until they where smooth. This may have been the jink in the armor. If the plate is not equally driving the drum then
there will be excessive load on the ones that do make contact. I'm not sure what I will do to correct it as I got many years of service
before it failed. I don't really want to scrap it & start over.
Craig.

[Scott_Conger]

Metal fatigue, excessive clearance to lugs and abuse. Stir and serve hot.

that clutch wasn't treated gently to have so many cracked and broken disks. Radial cracks, I've seen, but never large chunks partly or completely torn off on such a wholesale scale. If they were in one piece when I put them in, and they looked like that coming out, I'd be inclined to reconsider my driving style if those came out of my car. That kind of extensive damage is not normal...but it is impressive!

From a parts standpoint, I think filing the lugs and creating a loose fit is at least a significant contributing factor if not the Root Cause in the tearing off of the corners. Sliding on the lugs is fine, but if loose, they will pound and that's what looks like happened. The radial cracks are heat related and that leans toward driving style. There are definitely lessons to be learned from this with respect to how much remediation a brake drum can safely stand and when it is just time to replace it.

All in all, a perfect storm. Good thing it didn't cause more damage in the transmission (though I'd look for loose pins knocked askew on the flywheel along with a very close inspection of all teeth). Time for a new drum and another clutch pack of your choice. You'll be on the road in no time.

[Craig Leach]

Scott,
All parts are accounted for and none show signs of spending any time between gears. gears look & feel great. I don't think I abuse my T's
but I do get my moneys worth out of them. This is the first clutch issue I have ever had in 16 years. Come to think of it I have only had
one clutch failure in my life and it was in a shared company truck. I refuse to take full responsibility for that one. If anyone has a Watts
clutch they would part with I think I could custom fit it to the drum with good success. I may even consider using a old spring that has 95#
to reduce the load some. I have replaced springs that only had 70# that did not slip, That may say something about my driving style??
I do anticipate any input as I'm sure the first day I don't learn something will be my last
Craig.

[Scott_Conger]

Craig

it would be instructive for all of us if you'd share pictures of the reduced lugs in the drum. I know I have smoothed grooves carefully (and equally across all lugs) but now wonder to what extent that is prudent and where it becomes risky. I suspect that the major beating comes at a lug which still approximates full width and perhaps some or many others are undersized...forcing the full width lug to take the lion's share of the load when locking up. It would also be interesting to know if perhaps all of the cracked disk's corners were oriented around the same lug. Just speculating and wondering here...always looking to learn new things and perhaps abandon practice(s) that I previously deemed safe and reliable.

No offense was intended regarding driving styles...just an out-loud wondering as to what impact it might have had in exacerbating the issue. ...an issue which I believe traces back to the reworked lugs. Plenty of folks pound the daylights out of these clutches with rarely a complaint beyond an occasional radial crack, and even at that, some of the gentlest drivers occasionally come to that fate. Having read many of your posts, I am confident that you will exorcise this demon from your car, thus the mention in my previous post that you'll have this thing whipped soon.

And...please do consider sharing some pictures of the brake drum lugs

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

If it were mine, I'd buy a good original, or new, brake drum, and put original clutch discs in it. (Not your originals! Nice ones. )

The backlash and uneven pressure points created by your filing will be hard on any discs, (original, turbo 400, watts, jack rabbit, etc.).

[speedytinc]

To my thinking, you use reverse & the disks will move to a stop on the lugs (when looking @ the top lug[12 o clock] on the left side) When engaging forward they will shift CCW to a stop on the right side of the lugs (the area of most notching that you would have "smoothed" the most.) Until you use reverse again the disks will stay on the right side of the lug. So there would be no constant shift & bang into the lug. When smoothing out the the lugs, you would have removed aprox the same amount of material on each lug, so you should have a pretty good, even contact @ all 6 lugs. The disks will rotate more due to the narrower lugs going from low to rev & rev to low.
If one or 2 lugs were wider, the whole load of the clutch disk would be concentrated in that 1 o 2 notches. Thats what I see in the loss of 1 edge of a disk & a crack starting in the disk notch.

To be safe, I would put in a shoe lugged brake drum. Cut down a wide drum if necessary to fit for the earlier transmission you have.

My best guess is that in a stockish model T this failure would not be seen. I have dressed many drum lugs & used th400 disks with a heavy clutch spring with no negative feed back yet.

Most of the failure issues points back to being a speedster with extra speed, horsepower & gearing & you having too much fun with it.

P.S. Consider the clutch damage & the extra strain that has been put on the rest of the drive line.
You may be in line for a sheared pinion key or gear tooth loss.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

To my thinking, you use reverse & the disks will move to a stop on the lugs (when looking @ the top lug[12 o clock] on the left side) When engaging forward they will shift CCW to a stop on the right side of the lugs (the area of most notching that you would have "smoothed" the most.) Until you use reverse again the disks will stay on the right side of the lug. So there would be no constant shift & bang into the lug.

Just letting off the throttle to slow down or engine brake, then re-applying the throttle will hammer the lugs when backlash is excessive. How do you think they get grooved in the first place?

[TXGOAT2]

Lugging the engine will jackhammer the discs, especially if the fit is loose or uneven on the lugs. Running with timing over-advanced could do likewise, as could running with a sloppy u-joint or a dry u-joint.

[speedytinc]

I could be wrong, but I think the groves are not from hammering, at least not exclusively, but from drive pressure.
I believe that during forward running, the natural fluid friction & a bit of disk friction, the disks will all rest touching the contact point of the lugs. They wont float around willie-nillie.
As you increase the load, (acceleration, weight, hill climbing) the more press into the lugs.
Forward movement comes thru the transmission shaft to clutch hub pushing the clutch disks into the lugs as they drive the brake drum & attached output shaft. Those large clutch disk edges take all the power to move the car. Of course the clutch hubs inner disks do also.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I could be wrong, but I think the groves are not from hammering, at least not exclusively, but from drive pressure.
I believe that during forward running, the natural fluid friction & a bit of disk friction, the disks will all rest touching the contact point of the lugs. They wont float around willie-nillie.
As you increase the load, (acceleration, weight, hill climbing) the more press into the lugs.
Forward movement comes thru the transmission shaft to clutch hub pushing the clutch disks into the lugs as they drive the brake drum & attached output shaft. Those large clutch disk edges take all the power to move the car. Of course the clutch hubs inner disks do also.

I think it's a combination John.

[Scott_Conger]

As for thinking that lugs see even wear, I think Colin Watt's pictures put that idea to rest:

If not convinced, then here is a picture of damage posted by Steve Tomaso:

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[Craig Leach]

Hi Guys,
I found a similar problem posted by dhosh back in 2020 May 24 My hub looks fantastic compared to his but same breakage
as Mine on the discs.

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Note the cracks all seem to be on the flat sides of the discs?
Craig.

[TXGOAT2]

Looks like lugging to me, or running in one of the engine's vibration periods. The more the parts wear, the faster they wear. On a modern clutch, the clutch plate damper gets wallowed out.

[Craig Leach]

I want to thank everyone for their contributions.
I now have a plethora of Watts & RV Anderson clutches to work with and instructions both Watts & RV Anderson. I have also watched
Mike Benders video. Forensic examination shows one was installed with a small disc first & last. I would think the first & last discs
would spin on the brake drum & push plate? Another was installed as per both instructions with the thin fiber disc in first. The thin
disc is somewhat distorted because of the uneven part of the drum does not support it completely. In RV Andersons instructions on
pre 1916 transmissions the thin plate goes in last & all others its the first? Anyone have any thoughts on these arrangements? I would
think a thick plate would be more resistant to distortion than the thin one? A large plate in first would better support the thin fiber
disc but that would alter the installed height of the assembly. I'm thinking the height of the final assembly from first plate to the end
of the push plate pins should be the same as a stock ford clutch to maintain the geometry of the clutch fingers? Anyone have that
dimension? Any thoughts you have on the installation of this type clutch would be appreciated. Thanks guys.
Craig.

[Dan Hatch]

Are those reproduction disc?

[speedytinc]

The height of the clutch pack can be taller than stock as long as the push ring remains loose/non locked up. As long as there is any adjusting set screw contact, there is no change in finger geometry & clutch spring pressure can be set stock or tighter.
Regarding the first & last disks, I cant see anything good coming from not using the large stock disks.
As you suggested under the clutch ring, but also the drum, those surfaces would be spinning prone to a lot more wear contrary to design.
That cant be right.
Regarding early transmissions, they require a THICK outer plate first because the thin plate can/will get jammed under the clutch lugs.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Dan,
Yes the Watts & AV Anderson are after market clutches.
Hi John,
The Watts & Anderson discs are the same as outside discs so they turn with the drum & push plate.
Craig.

[Dan Hatch]

Asking about the ones that broke. I have seen problems with the reproductions. Was wondering if this is another problem.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Dan,
I can only trace the stock clutch back about 30 years and both of the previous owners where noted for not liking reproduction parts.
My guess is they are Ford.
Craig.