Have we got an odd ball felloe

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My1914T
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Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by My1914T » Sun May 05, 2019 1:45 pm

One of our club members was looking for a Hayes style felloe with the notch for a Hayes rim and found this felloe, but what's with the dimples and no holes? How do you shape the end on the tenon? . . . or was this just not drilled?
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Humblej
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Humblej » Sun May 05, 2019 2:18 pm

I dont think thats for a model T

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Mark Gregush
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun May 05, 2019 3:16 pm

It is T. It was something Ford tried. Uses a button on the end of the spoke instead of the normal tenon. I have at least one.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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My1914T
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by My1914T » Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm

Our local spoke guru, didn't want to touch it!

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Robert Lawson
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Robert Lawson » Sun May 05, 2019 3:30 pm

Had 3 of those on my 24 coupe. What year was the car that that came off of?


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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun May 05, 2019 3:46 pm

The spoke end has a neatly round nub that must be perfectly made to fit the inside of the dimple.
I don't know who used them, and have only seen a very few up close over the years. The Sayers touring car project I had many years ago had two wrong wheels on it that had that type. Those wheels were not model T size, and according to the hubcaps may have been from a Chandler. I have seen a couple others that were model T size.
I have one such rim in model T size, and a Hayes model T rim fits perfectly. The notches for the fixed lugs, and valve stem holes all line up correctly and look like they were made for each other.
Again, I do not know if these were originally made for the T model or not. If someone has a couple and wants to put together a set of these to use (for whatever silly reason?), mine would be available. I don't know who I would recommend to make the spokes for them. They have to made very precisely for the wheels to be tight and reasonably safe.

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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Hap_Tucker » Sun May 05, 2019 4:27 pm

Summary: Yes original Fords were supplied with wheels that used those "odd to us" shaped spokes. I do NOT know the dates or which suppliers provided them.

Additional details:

At http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/437128.html Scott Batta posted a similar question with the photos below of his 30 x 3 1/2 wheels.
Scott Batta 1.jpg
Scott Batta 1.jpg (89.54 KiB) Viewed 2721 times
Scott Batta 2.jpg
Scott Batta 2.jpg (92.59 KiB) Viewed 2721 times
Also notice that Rim B in Scott's picture can be used with any of the Ford supplied 30 x 3 1/2 demountable rims EXCEPT the Kelsey no88 demountable loose lug rims. So the Hayes 2845B fix lug rim; the Ford 2845B fixed lug rim; the Ford 2845C loose lug rim; and the Ford 2845D loose lug rim should all be usable on the that felloe. Why? It has the notches to allow the feet of the fixed lug Hayes rims to work as well and the cup around the valve stem that is needed by the 2845C & 2845D rims. The appropriate lug nuts and/or removable lug & nut would need to be used for the appropriate rim. Rim profiles shown below are from the Jan 1924 "Ford Service Bulletins." [Note the Ford 2845C & Ford 2845 were produced by various companies for Ford use. Firestone and Cleveland were two of those companies. ]
Rim profiles Jan 1924 Ford Service Bulletin.jpg
In that same posting and re-posted below is the illustration Tom Mullin originally posted on the MTFCI forum [but that forum is no longer available]. Tom used the computer to illustrate that spoke. He got the information from the Ford Archives and it shows that Ford had a factory drawing for that type of spoke. Note in the Price List of Parts you will NOT find individual spokes for sale -- they are NOT listed. But the Factory Number (sometimes called drawing number) does still exist at the archives.

Note it is an optical illusion. If you look at it sometimes the drawing has a bump on the top and sometimes it appears to have a depression on the top. Based on the use of the spoke – it really has a bump upwards that fits into the depression/dimple of the metal fellow used with the demountable 30 x 3 1/2 rim.

Respectfully submitted,

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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Rich Bingham » Sun May 05, 2019 6:27 pm

At least once in the past 56 years I encountered this type of wheel on a Model T. Then as now, I'm not conversant with all the earmarks of OEM wheels and rims, but they sure seemed to be factory issued as opposed to an accessory item. That type of artillery wheel was made by Motor Wheel Corp. , which supplied artillery wheels for many makes in the early 20s, including Packard. They are a high quality wheel, their advantage being that the spoke tenons are not exposed to mud and water, eventually causing rot. I expect they were more costly to build than the wheels we are familiar with, and I doubt if any current wheel-wrights are up to the challenge they present.
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 05, 2019 6:36 pm

You know, I doubt that the tenon was a carefully turned hemisphere. My guess and it is only a guess is that the spoke was turned with a very short tenon and a 45 chamfer on it. If you ever pressed a wheel together you know that the oversize tenon squeezes through and is wasp-waisted in the standard fello. Lots of deformation in that assembly. I'm pretty sure a very short tenon with a 45 on it would conform nearly perfectly to the fello's cup and stay put with no problem. If I was building such a wheel, I'd make the tenon about 10% longer than the depression is deep, and probably 10% less than the diameter. I'll bet it would be just fine.
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by pre15dale » Sun May 05, 2019 6:42 pm

I have two of those fellows Some day when I get tired of tripping over them I will probably scrap em


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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 05, 2019 6:47 pm

What is it with the increasingly acceptable and obviously popular option of throwing away T items that someone might use or even pay for?

I just don't get it. You are, however in good and growing company, so there is that... :(
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by CudaMan » Sun May 05, 2019 7:37 pm

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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Adam » Sun May 05, 2019 8:03 pm

I have the Ford prints for these style spokes and felloes, so Ford did make this style wheel at some point.

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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Hap_Tucker » Sun May 05, 2019 8:47 pm

jpg - Kelsey 88 felloe 30 x 3 drawing changes documented.JPG
Adam,

If you can look in the top right hand corner of the Ford Factory Drawing (Print) you have of that spoke, it often has a box with the date the drawing was originally drawn and then dates of when changes to the drawing were accomplished. Below is a sample from Kelsey loose lug front wheel used 1919-1923 or so.

In this case we can see that the date of the first drawing was May 23, 1919. And that it had revisions all the way to Aug 13, 1923.

We also know from Bruce's "Model T Ford" page 224 and also the online version at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1919.htm that:

That the 1919 model year started Jan 1919 and under wheels he has:

WHEELS: ...... Demountable-rim wheels were standard on closed cars, and optional on the open models; used 30 by 3-1/2 tires all around.

So how did they have the demountable wheels on the cars before the "Factory Drawing" was produced? I'm wish I knew for sure. But one hypothesis (guess) is because they were purchasing a standard wheel from Kelsey that they were already producing. And they merely bored the center hole to fit the Model T Ford hub. They would then assemble the wheels using the Ford supplied hubs or there is a chance that Ford assembled the wheels using the Kelsey supplied spokes, felloes, etc. But either way -- Ford was not directing Kelsey how to do all the details.

Another possible guess is there was an earlier drawing but they didn't continue to update it, but started over with a new drawing. I don't think that happened -- but I don't know what did happen.

Those dates may or may not help us figure out when that style was used. In some cases they will also include a "Obsolete date" and in those cases we know that they planned to longer use that part. That sometimes was reversed at a later date -- but often times it was not.

Respectfully submitted,

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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by ABoer » Mon May 06, 2019 4:53 am

Ross : I have atleast one on a 1923 Roadster with 30 x 3 1/2 demountable .
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Humblej » Mon May 06, 2019 6:47 am

Gold star to Hap, thats top notch analysis, thanks for sharing.


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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by pre15dale » Mon May 06, 2019 9:20 am

Scott, I am not throwing those two fellows away yet, if someone wants them they are welcome to them. But the sad fact is I am approaching the age where this stuff will have to go and if I Can't sell it or give it away there is only one other option. I have offered parts at swap meets for give away prices and even for free and hauled it all home again. So what else is there to do?


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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 06, 2019 10:04 am

Dale

let me apologise for jumping on you. It wasn't called for and was unkind in it's spirit. In fact, I, too, have seen the decline in interest in newer and even older hobbiests who sniff and turn up their nose at this stuff as though it was going to be around forever. I suspect it coincides with the general decline in mechanical interest and aptitude in so many people. Fewer and fewer are interested or capable of caring for their cars, much less being able to see any value in a or any particular part.

I think I was venting more my frustration of the state of the hobby and those who will or won't perpetuate it

again, my apologies to you
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by pre15dale » Mon May 06, 2019 11:57 am

Scott, No offence taken and no apology neccessary. Dale

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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Oldav8tor » Mon May 06, 2019 6:25 pm

I'm just finishing painting the steel felloes and varnishing the wood spokes of my front wheels. One of them has the "dimples" mentioned in this post. Fortunately, the spokes are tight and the wheel in general overall good condition. I appreciate learning a little about this unusual design. Funny thing, all four wheels on my T are from different manufacturers :) I'm going to try to pick up some matching wheels and fix them up so I'll have some spares.
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Re: Have we got an odd ball felloe

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 06, 2019 11:08 pm

Tim

I think I know where you could pick up some dimpled wheels on the cheap! :roll:
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