Timing and Tuning

[Model T Ron]

I have had a 1915 Touring for a few years but it has a modern distributer and does not use buzz coils. The 15 starts on the first or second pull every time and runs great. I just got a 1924 Coupe that has a rebuilt engine and appears to be all stock. She has had very little use with maybe 500 or so miles since restoration but has been sitting unused for about 4 years. I can get her started but it takes a little playing around so something is off but I do not know what.

This is my first T with the original ignition system so any tips, tricks or suggestions on getting everything right is greatly appreciated. From what I know the coils have been rebuilt by the Coil Doctor about 5 years back and the car runs on both Battery and Mag......The engine does seem to run a little better on Mag but I think that's normal.

Thanks
Ron

[Steve Jelf]

Yes, it runs better on MAG because the magneto puts out more juice than the battery. Coils by Brent Mize should be excellent. You probably dont't have a plug tester, but you can try some new plugs and see if they make a difference. Autolite 3095 are inexpensive. You can check/set timing with this:

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

[TXGOAT2]

For a car thjat has been sitting, driving it a few tens of miles with fresh gas and fresh 10W30 oil in the motor may do it a great deal of good. I'd try doing that before I messed with anything, unless something specific is clearly at fault. Ts all seem to be a little different as to what works best for starting. Driving it for several miles at a stretch, preferabley out of traffic, will allow you to get used to its individual "personality", and starting it a number of times, hot and cold, will likely reveal what works best for starting that particular car. If it has an original type timer, be sure to at least add a squirt or two of light oil to it. My choice for that would be Marvel Mystery Oil. The engine will perform best with clean, light oil in it, with the oil level halfway between the upper and lower trycocks on the oil pan. I get excellent results using a full synthetic, 5W30 or 10W30 oil in the crankcase.

[Art M]

My thoughts is to clean or check the timer.

Art Mirtes

[speedytinc]

If you are not familiar with timer & coil ignitions, you have a lot to learn about getting optimal performance. As I did.
You are used to trouble free low maintenance distributers. My personal operating of a T with as stock ignition was only in the last 10 years.
I was unhappy with the performance initially & was tempted to go dizzy. Being a correct 14, I wanted to stay correct, so I worked @ getting the system perfect.
I found a newday worked best for me. My first set of rebuilt coils didnt quite run her right. The answer ended up having them tuned with an ECCT.
I picked up about 8 more mph & it ran smoother. Check the timer. Check the timing gear cover centering over the cam. New roller timers out of the box need detailing. Contacts & insulators must be perfectly smooth. Worn spots create roller bounce at higher speeds. Its all in the details.

[TXGOAT2]

If this car has only a few hundred miles since restoration, it isn't broken in yet. I'd oil the timer, check all fluids, then drive it as if it was a brand new car. (Read Ford owner's manual)

[Norman Kling]

After setting the timing with spark lever all the way up and the engine just after top center Try turning on the switch to battery and turn very slowly until it just begins to buzz. the pin at the front of the crankshaft which holds the pulley should be just clockwise when looked from front just about what would be 10/4 on a clock dial. Turn it slowly and it should buzz on every half turn of the crank at that same location of the pin.
Then try starting the engine and after it warms a bit, adjust the fuel mixture to the sweet spot about half way between where it starts to slow down and where it begins to lope. That is where you would drive it when the engine is warm. If you don't get spark to each cylinder, you have a problem with one or more coils, or with the timer, the spark plugs or the wiring. And the sparks should come in the order 1,2,4,3.
When the engine is cold you could experiment with turning the fuel mixture about 1/4 turn rich and choke it for a couple pulls on the crank, then turn the engine all the way around without the choke. next turn on the ignition and it should start. Pull the spark lever about one half way down as quickly as you can after it starts. When running non magneto, you will find several points where the engine speeds up as you advance the spark lever. It will speed up about 1/4 down, again at about 1/2 down and another around 3/4 down. For idle about 1/4 down for slow driving about 1/2 down and for fast driving about 3/4 down. Sometimes you will get a 4th position all the way down. Only use that position when going real fast like 45 mph. If you engine starts to slow down, retard it to the next node, etc. Most distributors have automatic spark advance, but with a timer you need to adjust it according to driving conditions.
Good luck.
Norm

[MKossor]

Here is a link with a general overview of the Model T ignition system with detailed instruction coil testing and tuning.

https://youtu.be/RYcGD-8Ol3s?t=364

Good luck with your car and getting it running with optimal performance.

[Model T Ron]

If this car has only a few hundred miles since restoration, it isn't broken in yet. I'd oil the timer, check all fluids, then drive it as if it was a brand new car. (Read Ford owner's manual)

I think you have made a very good point about not being broken in yet. I went out and hand cranked it without having the ignition on and she has a bit more resistance than my 15 Touring. I am not concerned but do feel a proper break-in would do her good. I may be opening a can of worms but could anyone recommend a good oil for break-in?

[TXGOAT2]

I would suggest using a quality 5W30 or 10W30 conventional oil in a new or near-new engine. After 300 to 500 miles, I'd drain it and use 10W30 full synthetic. Avoid racing or loading the engine, such as climbing a steep hill, especially before it is fully warmed up. It's best to run any engine ten miles or more any time you start it, especially in cooler weather. Drive at varying speeds, avoiding long idle periods or driving at any one speed. I'd stay at or below 30 MPH for the first few hundred miles. If the engine persists in missing, jerking, or otherwise acting-up once it's warmed up for a few minutes, find the cause and correct it. *If your engine doesn't have the "heat pipe" to warm the incoming air to the carburetor, I suggest getting one and installing it.*

[Model T Ron]

I would suggest using a quality 5W30 or 10W30 conventional oil in a new or near-new engine. After 300 to 500 miles, I'd drain it and use 10W30 full synthetic. Avoid racing or loading the engine, such as climbing a steep hill, especially before it is fully warmed up. It's best to run any engine ten miles or more any time you start it, especially in cooler weather. Drive at varying speeds, avoiding long idle periods or driving at any one speed. I'd stay at or below 30 MPH for the first few hundred miles. If the engine persists in missing, jerking, or otherwise acting-up once it's warmed up for a few minutes, find the cause and correct it. *If your engine doesn't have the "heat pipe" to warm the incoming air to the carburetor, I suggest getting one and installing it.*

Pat
I agree that conventional 5w30 would be a good oil to use so I went to Wally World and my have things changed. I have used synthetic for years so I never looked for conventional since the 90's. They only had one choice.....Quaker State 5w30 and it was almost the price of synthetic.

[TXGOAT2]

WalMart seems to have moved away from "conventional" oil. What they do have is, as you noted, about the same price as the full synthetic. Everyone into the system!

[TXGOAT2]

With the price of motor oil so high, and choices limited, people who want or need to change oil often are in a fix. In the case of a Model T, it might be worthwhile to rig up a container and a hand cranked oil pump/filter to clean up Model T crankcase oil. Drain the oil, hot, into a clean container and pump it through a common oil filter, such as an FL1A, into another clean container. Doing that ought to remove most contaminates such as carbon fines, dust, metallic fines, and band lint.

[Model T Ron]

I think it would depend on how much you drive. If you are only putting on 500 or so miles a year its not too bad but if you put on 3000 that's a lot of oil changes. I know for a Model A you can get an Oil Filter however that's not an option for a T to the best of my knowledge.......all we can get is a screen and a magnet Better than nothing

[TWrenn]

WalMart seems to have moved away from "conventional" oil. What they do have is, as you noted, about the same price as the full synthetic. Everyone into the system!

They still have Rotella at the best prices around. I still prefer that.

[Model T Ron]

Rotella is good stuff and I do use T6 but I wish it came in a 10w30. I tend to get Mobile 1 and or Rotella T6......now a days its not uncommon to find the oil shelf empty at Walley World so the days of being picky are over.

[DHort]

Tractor or Farm supply stores are your best bet up here. Never spend a penny at Wally World.

[Model T Ron]

I think I solved the riddle of why the 24 was a little hard to start. I pulled the plugs and they had a very large buildup of carbon. Being that I plan on adding a High Compression Head I wend ahead and pulled the cast iron head off and it was all carboned up. The top of the pistons as well as the valves also have carbon buildup on them. Cylinder walls all look like they just left the machine shop so she has very little use but the use she had was with a very rich fuel mixture. That said what would you guys recommend to help get the carbon off the top of the engine?

Thanks
Ron

[speedytinc]

SCRAPE.

After the big stuff is removed a cup wire wheel on a makita angle grinder or equivalent machine.
Stuff rags in the low piston holes & tarp around the motor.

[TXGOAT2]

Driving the car at road speeds with modern gasoline would have got rid of the carbon without taking the head off. The carbon is the result of short trips, cold running, and perhaps rings not yet seated, and perhaps oil level too high.

[Model T Ron]

Driving the car at road speeds with modern gasoline would have got rid of the carbon without taking the head off. The carbon is the result of short trips, cold running, and perhaps rings not yet seated, and perhaps oil level too high.

I cannot speak for the prior owner but I thought the Model T oil capacity was 5 quarts.....am I wrong?

[RajoRacer]

4 quarts is the correct amount.

[Model T Ron]

4 quarts is the correct amount.

Thanks for the reminder. On my 1915 Touring I have a dip stick so I just fill to the level on the stick. When I change the 24 Coupe's oil I will add 4 quarts but I do think I will add a dip stick to this car as well.

[TXGOAT2]

Four quarts is the MAXIMUM. Ford recommended running the car with the oil level halfway between the upper and lower cocks on the oil pan. This is around 3 1/2 quarts. NEVER let the oil level get below the bottom cock. It's necessary to have the car on a level surface to accurately check the oil level by any means. On a car with a dipstick, make sure the marks on the dipstick mean what you think they mean. The best way to do this is to check the oil level using the cocks on the oil pan, and then checking the stick against them. With the car sitting level, oil should just reach the top cock when the pan is full. With the car sitting level, when oil stops dripping from the bottom cock, that is the minimum level. The marks on the stick should correspond.

Too much oil in the pan will cause excessive leaking and oil burning and carbon buildup. It will also cause excess drag on the engine. Too little oil risks burning out bearings or even seizing the engine.

[TXGOAT2]

Note that when you drain the oil from a Model T, it's likely that not all of the oil will drain out.

It's best to drain oil when it is hot, and drain the oil into a clean pan and then measure the amount.Make not of the amount. It will probably be less than you expect. When refilling the crankcase, put in 2 quarts and wait 5 minutes, then check the oil. Add more if necessary until the level is halfway between the two cocks on the oil pan, or at the verified correct level on the stick.

It may help get more used oil out of the engine if you raise the front axle about 10" when draining. Do not raise the car by putting a jack under the middle of the axle. Use 2 jacks, or use a hardwood 4X4 about 3 feet long under the axle.

[DHort]

It is not a bad idea to leave the top petcock open when adding oil. Then leave the empty quart bottles on the floor of the car, or under the oil pan by the petcock, so you know you need to close the petcock before you ditch the bottles. This gives any excess oil a chance to drip out the top petcock.

[RajoRacer]

That's how do it also Dave.

[TXGOAT2]

Warm weather and a warm engine help. I'd add the last fresh quart slowly, with a clean container in place to catch oil dripping from the upper cock. When the oil stops dripping from the upper cock, I'd drain 1/2 quart from the lower cock into one of the empty oil bottles. That should have the oil level close to Ford's recommended ideal.