26 Tudor with old style fan

[RoadMoyer]

New here but have learned tons from the site. My dad has a 26 Tudor that was partially restored when he bought it in ‘88. Then life happened and he hasn’t touched it in 35 years. I started working on it with him as a fun project where I can ask him lots of fun questions about his past when he kept an old 1913 or 14 running as a boy growing up in the desert in Cali. It’s been an amazing time for me. K that’s really not important backstory

We’ve been able to get it running pretty well but have a leaky water pump that repacking didn’t help. So we are going to take it out and run without one. As I was researching what belt I would need, I found that a 26 should have a fan attached to the coolant outlet, while his is the old style attached by the commutator. The engine doesn’t have a serial number on it. So I’m wondering if the engine was replaced at some point with an older one. All of the rest of the engine has matched what I found while doing research. Are there any distinguishing features I can use to determine what year the engine was made?

Can I just put on the correct outlet connection and install a 26 style fan? Is there any reason to/not to do that? Any ideas on where to get the parts needed to do that?

Thanks!
Steve

[Humblej]

Does the transmission have wide brake and clutch pedals? Are there 2 tabs on top of the hogs head with bolts going into the engine block? If yes it is a 26-27 engine, if not it is an earlier engine.

[George House]

Congratulations on the decision to lose the water pump yes; you can find a “correct” 1926 water outlet and fan - if you have a need to enter the T in a restoration competition. Just use the fan, pulley and bracket you have. Measure the belt length around the crank pulley and fan pulley with a tape measure or even a string and order the length from one of our suppliers.

[George House]

You also asked where to find additional parts you’d need for 1926 engine without a water pump: you’ll need a water inlet fixture on the left side of the engine with 2 mounting bolts of the right length and the pipe from that fixture to the bottom radiator tank. But I’d wait on the ‘26 water outlet and fan. I have a half dozen of both items I’d make available as does most others on the Forum. Plus the T parts suppliers.

[RoadMoyer]

Thanks! Definitely not going for show quality at this point. So I will just stick with our current fan. It does seem a little low on the radiator - bottom of fan is below bottom of the fins in the radiator.

I am curious though on the age of the engine - I’m not exactly sure where I would see bolts and shims on the hogsheads - they would be in the picture below if they were there, right? I also took a pic with the pedals… I’m not sure if they are big. This leads me down a big rabbit hole now… if the engine is pre 26, what about other parts - frame? Drive train? Rear drive axle? And do any of those matter? Is there anything to worry about with mixed year car? From what I read that doesn’t sound uncommon. It does have the coils on the engine and the gas tank under the dash, which I understand were some of the bigger changes. I have noticed many/most of the body bolts are not in right now, but I just assume it’ll fit on the frame.

Any other differences in the engine/trans I need to be aware of? All of my research has been on the 26, so I haven’t really looked at anything else.

Thanks again!

[TXGOAT2]

That's a pre-'26 27 transmission and engine block. As far as I know, it will work fine in a 26-27 chassis. If you have an earlier chassis, the 26-27 body and fenders may not be an exact fit. Thousands of Model Ts today are built up from mixed year parts.

The late model frames had a different rear crossmember and and some differences at the front end of the frame.

As far as I know, most any year engine and transmission will fit any other year chassis.

Model Ts are all the same, of course, except that they are almost all different.

[TXGOAT2]

The fan will swing upward to a more normal position when used with the correct length belt.

[George House]

Something I’m curious and concerned about is that extended ‘neck’ from your fan pulley to the fan blades. Much has been written about this somewhat rare component only being used on 3 row radiators. Count the coolant rows front to back; if only 3, that may be the perceived need for the waterpump.

[speedytinc]

Stock floor boards for a 26-7 wont fit. The pedal spacing is different Plan on making your own.
The early fan is smaller diameter blades. This type must be checked for loose rivets. They can/do get loose & fling off a blade into the radiator upper tank or into a hood panel.
Figure on changing it. Pully is smaller effecting fan speed. You will have a hard time finding a "stock" sized belt.
The front timing cover is different, but not necessary to change to run the proper outlet/fan set up.
A legitimate engine # will indicate its date. There is also a casting date, typically behind the engine #.

[RoadMoyer]

Thanks! We pulled apart the fan tonight and cleaned/inspected it and all the fan blades are tight. I’ll add that to my list of things to watch. It did have wood cut around the pedals when we started, so they must’ve taken care of that.

I think the radiator is as you describe best I can tell. Here’s the best photo I could take.

Thanks!
Steve

[RajoRacer]

Has "FORD" script on the block so it's earlier than '26 - '27. Can you read the serial number and/or casting date on the side of the block ?

[ModelTWoods]

Thanks! We pulled apart the fan tonight and cleaned/inspected it and all the fan blades are tight. I’ll add that to my list of things to watch. It did have wood cut around the pedals when we started, so they must’ve taken care of that.

I think the radiator is as you describe best I can tell. Here’s the best photo I could take.

Thanks!
Steve

Steve, if authenticity isn't important to you, you might get by with using the fan assembly that you show in the photo, however the fan assembly that your engine has is NOT only pre-1926, it IS pre-1920. The fan you show has four fan blades riveted to the front of the pulley. The pulley you have is probably steel. The same type fan and pulley was used as far back as possibly 1909. The earliest years used a brass pulley. Later years switched to a steel pulley. This was used (with a fan arm) through 1919-20. In 1920, Ford increased the diameter of the pulley and switched to a pressed steel fan blade assembly which fastened to the front of the new larger pulley, made of aluminum, with four machine screws. If you are "dead set" on using what you have, assemble the fan on the fan shaft and fan shaft arm to the front timing cover. Move the arm holding the assembly to raise the fan to its highest limit and wrap a string arount the fan pulley and the crankshaft pulley. Then let the arm drop down to its lowest possible position where the fan blades will still clear everything; tighten arm and take another measurement with the string. These two measurements will give you the minimum aqnd maximum length of belt that you can use with that type of fan and pulley.
BE AWARE, That even with the old style fan positioned at its highest point, that you won't get the cooling benefits that the larger pressed steel fan and aluminum pulley will give, because #1 the later pressed steel blade fan is larger in diameter than the earlier riveted blade fan, and #2 the fan arm, even in its highest position will not position the center of the fan as high in back of the radiator as the correct 26-27 water outlet/ fan mount, will. Ford increased the height of the radiator and grill shell in 1923 to provide better cooling, and to take advantage of maximum cooling, the fan needs to be as high as possible in back of the radiator.
I don't know the history of your father's car, and why the engine and transmission were changed, but I'd bet that the reason a water pump was added was because the incorrect fan and fan mount that the engine is using, did not provide maximum cooling. As far as a mismatch of parts go, I ran into a similar situation as yours when my dad and I restored my Grandfather's 27 coupe back in the late 1960's. At some point in my Grandfather's car's history, he let the block and head freeze and crack, and since the rest of the engine and transmission was good, he bought a 1922 bare block from a salvage yard and rebuilt the engine using all the internals and transmission from the original engine. The only exception was the front timing cover and fan bracket. For some unknown reason, he used the timing cover and fan mount bracket from a pre-26 engine. I guess it cooled well enough for him (even without the correct 26-27 water outlet/fan mount), but he did have the advantage of the 1920 and later larger pressed steel fan and pulley to match.

[Humblej]

Steve,
So it has been determined you have an engine that is earlier than a 26-27. Lets see where the rest of the car stands. We will be able to tell pretty easily if you have a 26-27 car with an earlier engine/trans, or, if it is an earlier chassis with a later body. From the pictures you have a 26-27 firewall and a 26-27 steering column, and a 26-27 gas tank, but we will need more pictures to go any farther. Here are areas we could use pictures of:
1) The frame rear crossmember, a picture that will show its length relative to the body.
2) The frame front crossmember, specifically are there ears at the front corners.
3) The rear axle brake drum.
4) A wheel.
5 The front axle spindles.
6) The body.

[RoadMoyer]

Great info! So looks like I need to find a new fan assembly. I assume if I’m getting a new one I may as well go for the 26?

After all this great info I did start looking at the rest of it and I think it’s a 26 frame. I did find an Id stamped in the frame - a 12,900,000 range number - assuming that’s the same as the original engine number, I think that makes the frame a Dec 1925 build. Based on what I read yesterday, the rear crossmember should be channel on the earlier 26 frames, which mine is (doesn’t have the flat lip running along the channel). Here are some pics. I couldn’t get a good pic of the rear cross member (back is still mostly surrounded by other stuff my dad has collected over the years). Front cross member extends beyond the frame. I didn’t get pics of the brake drums before I left.

[Humblej]

Its all 26-27 with an early engine and trans. It will work fine with the early engine, but the 26-27 engine and trans are better to have, worth finding one and replacing it someday.

[Allan]

The fan you have is from the late teens. It has a steel pulley and riveted blades, the steel hub replacing the earlier brass hub. It is usually driven by a smaller pulley on the crankshaft. Your motor has an electric starter, so will have the larger crankshaft pulley. That, and the small diameter of the fan pulley, will mean the fan is driven at greater speed. The combination will not suit any off the shelf T model fan belt.

The correct fan blade for that arm and motor will have two tapered blades, spot welded together as a unit, fastened to an aluminium hub with 4 slot head machine screws. That will give you a combination for which a standard fan belt is available. it is not a 26-7 combination.

Allan from down under.

[kmatt2]

Steve, Your frame is an early 1926 frame with out the extra rear cross member flange, it will work fine. In the picture it looks like the rear spring is sitting too low in the cross member. Make sure that the spring center bolt head enters the square hole in the cross member in order to keep the rear end centered correctly.

[RoadMoyer]

Thanks for the info! So with the current mounting bracket for the fan I can just get a new fan, shaft, and pulley? Or find a 26 outlet nozzle and get the fan for that? Either would work?

Being new to this, where should I start looking for an engine/trans combo? Won’t be first priority but I’d like to start looking to estimate cost vs level of restoration needed.

I’ll add the rear spring to the list as well. We’ve been working through it methodically as I get time to come up to Ohio to work on it. We’ve gone through most everything related to the motor, electrical, and transmission at this point, with just a few fixes left (figuring out the fan and replacing the pump). Next is rear wheels, brake drums, and other rear end stuff, so that fits perfect with where we are. Hopefully then we can get it off blocks and actually drive it

Thanks!
Steve

[George House]

Back to your radiator Steve and preempting overheating problems: I couldn’t tell if that was an inside-the-filler-tube picture or colonoscopy shot. If the former, good news is you have a good replacement radiator. Bad new is it appears you have some serious flushing work ahead and we’re gonna see triple digit inflation temperature in Texas in a few months

[RoadMoyer]

Through the filler top down shot. And yeah we have a lot of flushing to do. Was waiting until I was done with the rest of the coolant system issues since I keep losing so much coolant from the packing on the water pump. Any great tips on flushing? I will be taking off the water pump - is there any physical cleaning I can do before I put on the new inlet?

Thanks
Steve

[ModelTWoods]

Back to your radiator Steve and preempting overheating problems: I couldn’t tell if that was an inside-the-filler-tube picture or colonoscopy shot. If the former, good news is you have a good replacement radiator. Bad new is it appears you have some serious flushing work ahead and we’re gonna see triple digit inflation temperature in Texas in a few months

George, The 2023 Texas summer weather forecasts that I have seen and heard, predict a wetter, cooler (no months of 100 degree readings) as we've had the past 2 or 3 summers. we may still have a few 100's and certainly a lot of high 90's, but if The Old Farmer's Almanac is on track (and other predictions that I've seen), we should not be "well done" by the end of the summer.
Speaking about his radiator, it is a replacement flat tube radiator, but I'll agree, George, it does need a series of enemas to get it cleaned out.

[ModelTWoods]

Through the filler top down shot. And yeah we have a lot of flushing to do. Was waiting until I was done with the rest of the coolant system issues since I keep losing so much coolant from the packing on the water pump. Any great tips on flushing? I will be taking off the water pump - is there any physical cleaning I can do before I put on the new inlet?

Thanks
Steve

Steve, I've sure you will get as many suggestions of ways and brands of radiator flush as you' ll get opinions on water pumps on this forum. Many are available locally at your auto parts store. Lang's Old Car parts, sells a product called IRONTITE Themo Flush and Engine Cleaner. Here is a list of the conversion parts you'll need: T-3004-E 26-27 water outlet on head, T-3005 water outlet gasket, T-3015 water inlet (to replace water pump), T-3018 water inlet gasket, T-3061-C welded 4 blade fan, T-3962-C aluminum fan hub, T-3964-MB fan blade screws, T-3966-C 26-27 fan shaft, T-3981 fan hub gasket, T-3962 fan cup, T-3983 fan cup felt washer. I hope I didn't miss anything. As plugged as your radiator looked, it could best be cleaned by removing it and taking it to a radiator shop for cleaning. However, if you do this, and reinstall it before cleaning your engine, all the crud in your engine will flow right back into your nice clean radiator and you be shooting yourself in your foot, so try cleaning the block with a cooling system cleaner with the radiator in place first. Then if you are satisfied the engine is clean, and you still want the radiator cleaned, then take it to a shop for cleaning.

[George House]

Steve,
If you’re still interested in a ‘26 engine appearance, heres 2 pictures of parts you’ll need. They’re available thru the vendors but, if I may help, please email me.
gwhouse73(one)(at)gmail.com

[RoadMoyer]

I’ve already shot myself in the foot there. Radiator had a leak so I had it cleaned and repaired right off the bat. And now gummed it up again. Onward and upward - once I can get a complete cooling system I’ll flush it out best I can and go from there.

Thanks for the parts list. I found them all at langs so I can order it for my next trip up there. Having to get a few other items like a rear wheel puller and a screen filter for the transmission I’ve seen everyone say to get.

How do I find about shows and swap meets in the Dallas area?

Thanks
Steve

[BUSHMIKE]

New here but have learned tons from the site. My dad has a 26 Tudor that was partially restored when he bought it in ‘88. Then life happened and he hasn’t touched it in 35 years. I started working on it with him as a fun project where I can ask him lots of fun questions about his past when he kept an old 1913 or 14 running as a boy growing up in the desert in Cali. It’s been an amazing time for me. K that’s really not important backstory

Steve,
To me that backstory IS by far the important one. Thru my early adulthood my dad restored a 1929 Pontiac Sedan. I had no interest in it or his endless stories of the T’s in his youth. Now with Dad gone and my interest in the T’s, I would give anything to hear about his experiences. Savor the time with your dad…..its priceless.

[RoadMoyer]

Steve,
To me that backstory IS by far the important one. Thru my early adulthood my dad restored a 1929 Pontiac Sedan. I had no interest in it or his endless stories of the T’s in his youth. Now with Dad gone and my interest in the T’s, I would give anything to hear about his experiences. Savor the time with your dad…..its priceless.

Thanks. I am. I’ve learned so much from him, but this time spent with him is just different. I wish I’d started 10 years ago, but I’m happy I started now. It’s a memory I will cherish. I really can’t wait to see him drive it down his driveway with my mom in the passenger seat!!!

[ModelTWoods]

I’ve already shot myself in the foot there. Radiator had a leak so I had it cleaned and repaired right off the bat. And now gummed it up again. Onward and upward - once I can get a complete cooling system I’ll flush it out best I can and go from there.

Thanks for the parts list. I found them all at langs so I can order it for my next trip up there. Having to get a few other items like a rear wheel puller and a screen filter for the transmission I’ve seen everyone say to get.

How do I find about shows and swap meets in the Dallas area?

Thanks
Steve

Steve, GOOGLE ' List of Texas swap meets 2023 ', and you'll find several lists.

[DHort]

I understand rear wheel pullers are not available from the vendors. Maybe make a request in the classified.