How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

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How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:23 am

Hello all, Still driving Shirley a bunch to the store, church, school. Having a great time. Thanks to all in the past who help fix her.

How do I tell when it is time to change transmission bands? I received my model T two years ago. I have adjusted the brake band twice, the other bands once. The brake band seems to have sufficient material still as far as I can tell. See attachment. How do I know if it or the others need replacement? It is difficult to see the reverse and forward band linings to check their thickness.

-- IV
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IMG_5464.jpg
IMG_5465.jpg


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Allan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:24 am

Ignatio, Usually you run out of adjustment when the bands are getting low. You might consider acting a bit before that time. Just looking at the brake band, I see that the lining stops short of the end of the band. It should be 1/4" or so past the end. Too much pressure on a poorly adjusted band may bend the ears somewhat and cause them to drag on the drum. Metal to metal is not good. Others may have different ideas.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:20 pm

So purchase 3 bands and a band changing tool?


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:38 pm

Ignacio

though they don't cost much, the band tool (strap of metal on a wood handle) can't be used with wood bands and should not be used with kevlar. Only plan to use it if relining with scandanavia. As for the "U" shaped tool. Don't bother in any event.

Best practice overall is to remove the hog's head with Kevlar and a necessity with wood.

And worn or not, as mentioned above, the bands were improperly assembled and are too short at the ends.
Scott Conger

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:51 pm

Ignatio,

Your brake band should be relined as the lining does not stick out past the end of the metal band like it should. I would go ahead and replace all three so that you don't have to deal with it later. The bands can be removed and replaced through the cover with the strap tool. I've done it several times like that and can replace the old bands with a pre-lined set in about 30 minutes, but the first couple of times can be very difficult. I would suggest you pull the hogs head so that all worn pedal cams can be replaced and all oil leaks can be solved while you have it apart. It's really not a big deal and can be done in a few hours if you keep at it.

Stephen

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ArthurB » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:57 pm

Ignacio, I was in a similar position last summer, wondering when I would need new bands, until one day I couldn't make it up my driveway. Once the bands are thin they can shred easily. Fortunately I could back up the driveway to get to my garage.

I decided to take the hogshead off since I was using wooden replacement bands. Replacing the hogshead while the engine is still in the car is not an easy job. I got it done, but it took many hours of cursing and a patient friend to work it from the other side of the firewall. I also wound up with a few new leaks because I didn't use enough RTV. Next time I will use a lot more RTV and maybe lift the body a little to make aligning the hogshead easier. If you don't have leaks and plan to use cotton bands you can save a lot of time. On the other hand, I now understand how the transmission fits together and works much better than I did before I pulled the hogshead. It's not always about taking the easiest path.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:02 am

I understand that Kevlar bands are essentially forever. How long are Scandinavians supposed to last?


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands.

Post by Allan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:40 am

Nothing lasts forever in a T. However, the only worn out woven kevlar bands I have seen were chewed up by a cracked transmission drum. Scandinavia bands will last well under the feet of an experienced T driver, but kevlar bands are much more forgiving when novice drivers are learning of the opperational foibles of a model T.

Allan from down under.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DanTreace » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:45 am

IMO, the new Scandinavian linings won't last very long at all. The formula for the additive to bind the cotton fibers and make them heat and oil resistant is the cause. These NEW Scandinavian linings are very dark black, stiff, and are rather thin in relation to the pre-new additive.
newer Scandi linings close up.jpg
Older version on the left is brown, and bit thicker, NEW today's lining, dark, stiff, thinnest.

MY result in using these around 2001 in the 1924 was a huge amount of debris or 'sticky tar' from the linings, filling up the oil screen. To my dismay the brake band lining didn't make it though a Nat'l tour in Virginia, the few hills there took the toll. Linings were less than a year old.
fuzz in screen.jpg
The better is Kevlar, it is the proper thickness, and has no additives to break down. Tough and will last and last. Same Kevlar in the 1924 since, still going and going like the Energizer Bunny :P

100_9093 (1024x768).jpg
Kevlar compared to new Scandinavian lining showing physical feature

Your choice, but for me the Kevlar is better. Even think a comeback will occur for all those non-demountable bands folks overlook and discard, you can line those with Kevlar and won't have to remove them for a super long time.
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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:35 am

Dan's top photo above shows later production (CANTEX CORP.) Scandinavia linings - both of them. Original Scandi's have a completely different weave pattern.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DanTreace » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:53 am

RajoRacer wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:35 am
Dan's top photo above shows later production (CANTEX CORP.) Scandinavia linings - both of them. Original Scandi's have a completely different weave pattern.
Correct

Here is the real deal old time Scandi
;)
Scan0658 (730x703) (730x703) (680x655) (640x616).jpg
ert8.jpg
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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:17 am

Where are the pedal cams?

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DanTreace » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:18 am

Ignacio

The 'cams' are of course on each brake and reverse pedal, forged to the pedal with the shafts replaceable.

The other 'cams' are the pedal supports, these are bolted to the outside and inside the hogshead.

The low pedal or clutch pedal has its 'notch' which is also a cam riveted to the shaft, that 3428 notch is riveted after you remove the old worn one, or when placing a new low/clutch pedal shaft.

Normally the reverse and brake pedals are good, if not, you have to find better pedals with good cams. The supports and notch are made new today, and are very nice reproductions, those are the parts that normally are changed, along with new shafts when you restore and rebuild a hogshead.

IMG_2775 (800x600).jpg
IMG_2772 (1280x960).jpg
Low or Clutch pedal notch which is riveted to the shaft inside the hogshead.
IMG_8805.JPG
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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:33 pm

How can I tell if my cams and shafts are worn and need replacing? (They probably are) Do I change the pedals out too?

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Richard G » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:08 pm

NOT NEW TO THE OLD CARS, JUST THE FORD T, MINE IS A 21, IT HAS THE NON REMOVABLE LINK TYPE BANDS THEY LOOK AND SEEM TO WORK FINE, THINKING AHEAD A BIT, SEEMS I HAD THE IDEA THE NEWER TS WITH REMOVABLE LINK BANDS, THE HOGS HEAD HAD A BULGE MAKING IT EASY'R REPLACING THE BANDS. OR IS THAT WISHFULL THINKING.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:22 am

...the band tool (strap of metal on a wood handle) can't be used with wood bands and should not be used with kevlar.
This is the first time I ever heard of not using the band tool with Kevlar. Why not? What did I do wrong?
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:32 pm

If I grab the brake or gear shift pedal with my hand I can move it back and forth with no resistance about an inch or two. Does that mean the cams are worn and need replacing? Do the pedals also need to be replaced?


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:37 am

Ignatio, the brake pedal and the cam on which it works should have little play before the pedal starts ramping up the cam. The first gear pedal is different. There needs to be some pedal travel to be able to disengage the clutch with your foot, without immediately starting to engage low speed.
Reverse is like the brake pedal, little to no play.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DanTreace » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:11 am

Does that mean the cams are worn and need replacing? Do the pedals also need to be replaced?


The best way to judge part condition is visual, with the hogshead off, easy to do restoration. If you only want to examine, you can loosen the nuts and washers on the bands, allowing the pedals to be a bit free swinging, then judge the action of the interface between the pedal cams and the supports.

Typically, the low speed notch needs to be in good shape, or else the setting of 'free neutral' is compromised by too much slop in pedal action.
IMG_0003.JPG
The supports for the brake and reverse are normally worn down, so you need to check condition of the gliding surfaces of the cam.

You can see the wear compared to a new repro support.

IMG_0004.JPG
Back in the day you could just go to the Ford parts dealer or agency and get new pedals too! Today we have to contend with finding the better used part, so your pedal needs to have appropriate wear to be usable with a new repro support.
IMG_0005.JPG
Used pedal with used support, note the amount of 'slop' existing before stepping on the pedal to engage the cam action to squeeze the bands.
IMG_0006.JPG
Same used pedal, but with new repro support, just about a good as you can have without NOS pedals :P
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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:27 am

"When is it time to change bands ?"

When your feet are touching the firewall and you can't stop and have no more adjustment left!! :shock:

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:28 pm

Therefore Dan, my brake pedal cam is very worn. :)

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:09 am

The shift pedal shaft deflects when I wiggle the pedal. I just found Lang's transmission bushing set. Should I just purchase the bushing set, cams, springs and new bands and go after it? Do shafts normally need to be replaced? I have now begun reading my previously untouched MTFCA 'The Model T Ford Transmission'.


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Allan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:02 am

Ignatio, the bushing set goes in the trans gears. It has nothing to do with the pedals and the cover. One thing at a time. To re-bush the transmission means a motor removal and trans teardown.

Allan from down under.


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Tiger Tim » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:04 am

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:27 am
"When is it time to change bands ?"

When your feet are touching the firewall and you can't stop and have no more adjustment left!! :shock:
I would probably do it one day earlier than that, but that's just me.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:16 pm

I don't see in the MTFCA Transmission book if there is a replaceable bushing for the pedal shafts. Is there? I see o-rings and I see 'oversized' control shafts on Lang's site. I should probably go with 'oversized' if my slow speed pedal shaft is deflecting when I grab it with my hand and move it back and forth?

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:53 pm

I should probably go with 'over sized' if my slow speed pedal shaft is deflecting when I grab it with my hand and move it back and forth?

Wouldn't need oversize IMO. There should be some 'movement' up and down, guess you have to measure and test. Do you have the hogshead off? Have you removed the pedals and shafts to measure?

The brake or reverse or low pedal shafts, new repro , will measure .624-.625"...the oversize is .630" but you will have to ream the pedal and the hogshead boss to fit. If you worry about leakage of oil due to worn boss on the hogshead, then do the O-ring trick, easy.

On this rebuilt with just std. new repro shafts, the fit is OK, can lift up and wiggle the low speed pedal vertically just some, but that is serviceable. The supports and cam action is more important than super snug fit of the shaft into the hogshead IMO. Now the early alum hogshead can be worn much more due to the soft metal, but the iron boss are more resistant to wear IMO, just depends on how worn out or wallowed out are the boss holes in your hogshead!


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:36 pm

What is the o-ring trick? I see the three o-rings for sale on Lang's and in the transmission book. That's not original?

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DanTreace » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:17 am

O-rings aren't found in the Ford of course :)

Sealing pedal leaks at the hogshead boss is covered in this earlier post:

https://www.modeltfordclubofamerica.com ... ?f=2&t=266
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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Mindless Automaton » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:39 am

I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet but low/high pedal does need some movement in the cam or you'll have no neutral.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:31 am

I've inspected it more:

The slow speed connection clevis to the clutch lever has play in it as well as play at the connection to the pedal. Will a new slow speed connection fix/improve this?

How does one chamfer the cams to do the o-ring trick?

The slow speed shaft and notch deflect substantially by rocking the pedal back and forth. How does the slow speed shaft seal without a cam on the outside? What does the slow speech notch notch into, the hogshead case? Do I have to remove the hogshead to change the slow speech notch?

Is the transmission band tool worth getting for installing Kevlar bands? My bands appear to have the removable ears.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 am

Just figured out that there is a clutch pedal support cam on the inside of the hogshead that is replaceable.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:33 pm

The surgery has begun! I have all the bands out and the old cotton removed, the Kevlar bands are going on now.

Question 1: With the hogshead on and the bands removed, what tool is used to hold the clutch pedal support bolt head on the inside? This is so I can take the nut off on the outside and replace the clutch pedal support. Is it possible to change the internal clutch pedal support and do the 'o-ring trick' without removing the hogshead?

Question 2: The pedals are worn. I am changing all the cams. Can the wear surfaces of the pedal be built back up again?

Wish me luck!

-- IV


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by DickC » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:32 pm

Very interesting comments relative to scandinavia, kevlar and wood linings. I agree that the new scandinavia lining is not what it used to be and many go to the kevlar. I once listened to a debate on the use of kevlar and one person whom I respect was very strong on not using kevlar for the brake band as heat could cause the drum to burst. He apparently had that problem (right or wrong) and I decided to use wood, cotton wood. I have used the wood bands for several years in the 1912 hack and adjusted them once soon after installing. Smooth operation, no chatter, and no wear on any of the three bands. Just my 2 cents, Dick C.


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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Susanne » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:01 pm

Sure you can. Building up worn parts isn't hard, If you're talking the shaft cam(s), build up the surface with a welder and then dress them back down to the original profile. Just know what the profile should be originally and take your time dressing it down to match. EZPeazy, just make sure it's smooth smooth. I remember someone used to sell replacement pedal faces, if that's where the wear is, you cut off the roached out ones, weld the new ones in place, and dress the wekd bead down so it vanishes... paint and reinstall.

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Re: How to tell when it is time to change transmission bands?

Post by Duey_C » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:12 am

When replacing a couple linings in the 24 in 15, used a spare drum here to be sure the bands were round in a relaxed state, clamped down on the drum too and would fit nicely on the drums in use.
Drum on the lap and started tweaking the re-lined bands around the drum. Found the bands were very tweaked, re-tweaked them to be quite round and fit nicer on a drum. Perhaps find a similar to your drum size if you don't have a spare, check your re-lined bands, tweak them to round again and be happy. Carefully installing the fresh bands. I used modern cotton linings but have seen photos here of poorly installed Kevlar linings that stood proud, away from the steel band itself in between the rivets. Yikes.
I riveted the ends of the lining first, stuffed the kidney shaped lining down into the band and kept riveting so it was snug on the band. :)
Susanne has good ideas too. We can!
Keep us posted! ;)
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