Darn It!! It Still Leaks

[BLB27]

As I reported in my post about oil levels, I had leakage at the drain plug. I installed a copper washer to replace the crushable washer I had installed with a new plug. It still leaks. I have looked closely at the area above the plug to see if the leakage is coming from above. It is not.

The attached photos show the situation. What is causing the leakage?

The last photo shows the original plug, the new plug, a fiber washer, the copper washer, the crushable washer, two washers with a rubber seal. I did not use the washer with rubber seal because it looked odd to me.

I would appreciate comments/suggestions.

[Scott_Conger]

the rubber washer seal is a stat-o-seal and is fabulous for its intended purpose.

now, for the reality check: you own a Model T, not a Duesenberg. You're finishing up your restoration and want it to be the best ever, but the sooner you relax about that drip, the sooner you're going to enjoy the car. If not, then this is the first of many many disappointments. The time to ensure that it did not drip was when the pan was being refurbished and the seal face/surface could be restored. Now, it just is what it is.

Model Ts can be made almost leak-free, but to do so requires care and planning during restoration, along with modern sealing techniques and materials to make up for the primitive design and almost-intentional leaks as designed.

FWIW - the fiber-filled copper crush washer and stat-o-seal should provide the best seal on an imperfect joint...the fiber washer won't, the solid copper ring takes too much force to energise, and the original crude brass washer on the left is a guaranteed leak. You cannot reliably reuse the copper crush washer, but you can reuse the stat-o-seal (just don't overtighten it).

[DanTreace]

I'll second the Stat O Seal, however I smear them and the threads of the plug with Permatex #2.
May have to discard old for a new seal at oil change, but lost of oil and a ruined motor on tour is way more expensive that a new Stat O Seal at oil change!

Have always used Permatex #2 with any drain plug or connections for oil, gasoline on the Ford. Works to seal up old thread and new. Won't inhibit release and really helps seal up threads.

[Professor Fate]

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Collect the oil as it drips and use it to lube your oil cups etc?
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25190.jpg (12.33 KiB) Viewed 2957 times

[TWrenn]

What Scott said. And Invest in the big "cookie sheets" like I have and just wipe 'em out once (or twice ) a week!

[Moxie26]

When the engine stops dripping oil, the guarantee is,.. you're out of oil !

[Nv Bob]

Won't leak when all leaked out
Check hirer up on the pan I had one seeping
Black gold hire up and oil oozed down side of the pan and dripped off the drain plug this happens mire when hot good luck
Might try two neoprene O rings its worked in the oast

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

They leaked when new on the showroom floor.

[Susanne]

Why'd the Ford owner sleep under his car?

He wanted to wake up oily...

[BLB27]

Dan, Thanks for the information and suggestion. I will use the Stat O Seal washer and Permatex. If that doesn't work, I will the pans underneath!

A lot of humor in the responses but no comments regarding my question, "What is causing the leakage?" I am still curious about possible causes.

[speedytinc]

You didnt read my reply?

I have been using ultra black on the threads.
That seals the drain plug, But not the OTHER pan leaks.

[John kuehn]

Are you sure it’s not coming from above in the area around the crankcase arms? That’s an area that there is a lot of factory brazing.
But as others have pointed out use a cardboard under the car where you park it. Model T’s do leak a little here and there after a while even after a rebuild.
Just watch it as you would normally do. Which is pretty often as you would for a Model T!

[Tadpole]

Does it get hot in your garage? Mine leak profusely on a hot summers day, the oil gets thin and creeps out e'ry orifice.

[BLB27]

Yes, I have looked carefully to see if the leakage is from locations above the drain plug. It is not.

The leakage is from the drain plug. What I am curious about is why it leaks from the plug?

[RajoRacer]

WAG - Perhaps the "socket" that the drain plug threads into was previously tightened by a gorilla and loosened it up the pan socket ???????

[Craig Leach]

Hi Bruce,
Try getting some spray foot powder, wipe the pan off with brake cleaner and make sure it's dry. Sray the foot powder on the pan like you are
painting it white. Them watch where the leak shows up. It could be coming from the two rivets that hold the baffle or the rivets in the pan
ears maybe somewhere else? It should show up in the powder so you know.
Craig.

[speedytinc]

Hi Bruce,
Try getting some spray foot powder, wipe the pan off with brake cleaner and make sure it's dry. Sray the foot powder on the pan like you are
painting it white. Them watch where the leak shows up. It could be coming from the two rivets that hold the baffle or the rivets in the pan
ears maybe somewhere else? It should show up in the powder so you know.
Craig.

I was thinking of laying a kleenix tissue. It will show the oil path & stick.
What I normally do is clean well, then look for the shine of loose oil with a flash light. I paint everything semi-gloss black.

[John kuehn]

I also thought about doing something along the lines of what speedytinc mentioned. And it could be the female piece that the plug screws into that’s had too much wrench torque put to it and separated from the pan.

But get the bottom crankcase area super clean with brake cleaner or lacquer thinner dust the area with foot powder and wait over night. That should tell you where the leak is.
Good luck.

One more thought.
Use the Kleenex as you said and use a small dab here and there of silicone to stick and hold on the Kleenex over the bottom section of the pan. That might work too.

[Mark Gregush]

Could be bad/oversized thread in the drain or ruff area around it.

[tdump]

I would check the threaded fitting in the oil pan for cracks.
I found on some carbs,both cast iron T NH carbs and a John deere carb, that would flood with all new components, that the threads the seat screwed into were cracked. The leak was thru the crack in the threads. I did have a photo of 1 case but I don't know where the flash drive is with it on it.

[m_p_dean@yahoo.com]

Not being in front of it, I'd suggest considering two things. IF it's leaking from the plug, first you might consider checking the mating surface with a file, making sure it's got a flat surface for the plug and washer to seal against. Second, get it absolutely clean and dry, possible spray it with some leak detector (like spray foot powder), watch it with a flashlight to see if you can determine the EXACT point of the leak. Once you know that, the fix usually finds itself.

[Mopar_man]

I've used the drain pan for a washing machine with good luck. Got them from Lowes.

[mtntee20]

Bruce, To answer your question: WHY DOES IT LEAK? Square or Straight cut threads, Explanation: Pipe threads are tapered, smaller at the open end becoming larger diameter the farther away from the end. Thus, the clearance between the internal and external threads is greater where the threads BEGIN to engage each other. This clearance reduces as the two pieces are tightened due to the taper of the threads, until there is zero clearance between the threads, i.e. air/water tight.
Nuts and bolts are straight cut. This means the clearance at the beginning of engagement is the same throughout total engagement. These threads will never be air/water tight. Tapered threads need more length to reach the sealing point. A short plug does not have enough length to use taper threads to seal. Thus, the use of a seal such as a brass, copper, or fiber washer. Each of these requires 100% face to face seal (under side of the plug head to the face of the threaded boss in the pan). Any imperfection will leak. Thus, the use of a "soft" material that will conform to the faces to seal.

I'm sure you will see the impending doom: Over-tightening of plug when the leak happens. Remember, these machines were NOT precision made items that were meant for educated, machine savvy people with great mechanical expertise. These machines were, basically, ONE step above "drip loss" engines where there was an oil drip lubricator supplying oil to a bearing and the oil was lost as it was thrown/dripped out of the bearing.

Back to the leak. Options: 1. Seal between the threads. 2. Seal between the plug and boss faces. 3. Add oil and wipe up or ignore the leakage. The stat o seal or a true-seal will do a better job of sealing face to face. The stat o seal being thinner and rubber does a good job. The True seal being thicker with a "plastic" (teflon) seal will not have much chance of working as the plug does not have enough thread the make it work. A custom plug with longer threads would work but is it worth all the expense compared to the $0.15 of oil lost?

[BLB27]

I bought foot powder spray. It didn't spray white, so I didn't use it. It did not contain talcum, so assume that is why it didn't spray white.

I used a flashlight and carefully inspected the area above the drain plug. I then used Kleenex to wipe the area and found nothing. I used a QTip to check the "seam" between the bottom of the pan and the threaded boss (see the first photo) and found nothing. Therefore, the leakage has to be from between the bottom of the threaded boss and the top of the washer gasket or between the bottom of the washer and plug.

I used Dan's suggestion and installed a stat-o-seal gasket and Permatex 2 on it and the plug threads (see the second photo). I probably got carried away with the Permatex!!

If it still leaks, Lowes, here I come to get a pan! I will probably need a pan anyways to catch oil from the foot pedal arms.