1922-23 two man top.

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1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri May 17, 2019 12:12 am

Hello all, I am finally getting to putting in 1922-23 two man top on Shirley. According to the Classtique video https://youtu.be/h6Y8gKaKIrs you stick the bow wrap on with Pro Stick then staple it on with an air stapler/brad nailer. What size staple is used and what air stapler model will work? -- IV


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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by DHort » Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 am

Ignacio, I do not know why she stapled and nail the bow wrap. As I recall there should not be any staples or nails on the top of the bows because it can eventually wear through the top. I will have to watch the video again, but another party said to sew the bow wrap across the top of the bow with a long running stitch. That is how I did it so there is no chance of any wear. What she has done on the front bow is OK, because you will be tacking and stapling the top to the front bow. Dave

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:18 pm

What if I don't sew?

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by DanTreace » Fri May 17, 2019 3:07 pm

The easy way for the wood bow bias wrap is to cut to fit, wrap, then spray a light coat of adhesive, like 3M, on the wood bow, pull down the cotton drill and it will stick. Can't think of sewing there, no room to pass a needle, as the bow drill needs to be tight to the wood bow.

Wetting the curved portion helps reduce wrinkles there, as the bias cut drill will pull and fit nice, takes patience. If you have to use staple or tack, seat it well with little protruding. On original bow drill remains have pulled off, the drill was tacked, but only on the upper center of the bow. And....the leading edge or nearing up to it, was tacked a thinner felt, about 1/2" wide, somewhat like the felt on the hogshead or at the dash. Was placed over the tacks used to fit the bow drill. That protected the top cover too.

Remember, the top cover rides only on the edges of the wood bows, when you fit the irons and suspend the wood bows where they will be erect, you can sight and determine where the top will lay....it will pull along just the leading edges of the wood bows.

As for a stapler, the air ones are nice, small, and the nose is so small it fits into the Hidem welting strip too, holding the channel open as you staple the finishes to your top. But use tacks in the long nylon or webbing top support runs from the front bow to the rear tack strip, you want to really have secure webbing for the top cover support.

Only the top pads will you need to learn to sew......it is simple. Get a long curved needle and heavy black thread at a women's fabric store, and just place a lazy lacing along and thru the canvas wrapped bow padding as you cover it with the cotton drill.....you can do it :lol: But if you are scared, use a thimble to prevent a bloody stick!

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by DHort » Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm

I stand corrected. Yes you can use staples or tacks on the bowdrill. I would buy the stainless staples and the galvanized or aluminum tacks. There will probably be a lady at the store that can show you how to sew the pads. It is quite easy. I cannot add anything more than what dan told you.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri May 17, 2019 3:53 pm

The bow drill was tacked originally but I like to stitch it like the pads photo shows. This allows more twisting to remove wrinkles. The stitching doesn't have to be pretty.
Just how I do it.
When did I do that?

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri May 17, 2019 6:33 pm

Surprise! See the pictures below I found the old rear seat body mounts still in place with the tops cut off. These T's are fun to work on when you find weird things like that. No such luck with the front seat ones. Where do I place the front seat ones? There are no marks. I assume it is carriage bolts for the bottom of the front seat mounts through the steel and the wood?
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Sat May 18, 2019 2:29 am

It actually kind of self locates, the bottom of the front top iron, has two holes in it and slants it forward at about 15º. These two holes mount to the seat box frame, bolt them up there first it will place the irons where it is supposed to go, then you'll know where to fasten it to the seat back tack rail.

5-22.jpg
See the holes at the bottom of the front Irons?

This is where they attach, these aren't attached correctly either, had to tell this guy at the Bakersfield Swap Meet about the mistake in their location, so he could correct it. He said he wasn't going to bother because the armrest is already notched for the top part of the iron. I told him I made the same mistake and patched the notch, once the padding is on and the covers, nobody is going to know you patched it, but you may notice some problems keeping this way instead of changing it, because they did it for some reason. He agreed and changed it.

FrontTopIronLocation.jpg
Also only the 22 has a 2 man top, even though the body is a 23, latter in 22, they went to the 1 man top, which continued through 25, 26 and 27 were slightly different in that they truly were a 1 man top. ;)
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Sat May 18, 2019 2:58 am

Mounting the front irons to the seat box like this, casts the angle of the irons 15º forward. I don't know why, but there must be a reason, maybe it helps support the front bow or something whilst traveling. Because it only lays over the windshield and is held in place by the front windshield straps, the top straps that run across the bows from the rear bow and the covering.

Also you may want to see if there is a harness shop in your town. The finishing tacks are 1/4 inch diameter, but I found that a 5/8 inch finishing tack looks good on the ends of the trim gimp. also you can use it along the sides to help keep the sides from flapping when you're traveling.

FrontBowDetail.jpg
SideFinishButtonDetail.jpg
DeadBlowHammer.jpg
You might want to get one of these also, it's a 2 lb deadblow plastic coated hammer, I got at Harbor Freight. It won't mar the finishing tacks heads, also it helps if you drill a pilot hole about an 1/8th of the way to help start the small head finishing tacks (otherwise they'll bend). ;)
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat May 18, 2019 11:52 pm

Okay all 4 mounts are on. Just like you said I found the 2 holes and tilted them 15 degrees then notched the arm rest to fit. I buzzed off the top bow surface rust and primered them with black Rustoleum Automotive Rust Reformer. I did a tire carrier while I was at the bows. I will shoot them gloss black tomorrow then it is on to putting on the fabric.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by DHort » Sun May 19, 2019 12:17 am

Looking better and better.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu May 23, 2019 11:58 pm

Painted the bows.

I wasn't too excited about needle and thread sewing the bow wrap at the metal parts like in the Classtique video. I asked my 82 year old Mother for advice as she observed me struggle with needle and thread and she said to just use Fabric glue. I asked her if that was cheating. She denied that it was cheating. Thus with that permission I went forth and glued away with 'Super Fabric Adhesive(tm)'. So my bows are wrapped and on the car and on to the next steps.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by Original Smith » Fri May 24, 2019 10:00 am

I always thought the tops for the slant windshield cars were one man tops? The stapler that Dan posted looks pretty heavy duty. Mine is a light duty one I purchased at a local upholstery supply. The slant windshield models also use hidem welt on the front and back bows and around the back of the seats too.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 pm

Further along. The Classtique video is for a 1 man top. I have a 2 man top so my front rain flap is different than in the video. I understand that the sewn part is what goes on the window hanging down but I do not know otherwise how it goes onto the front bow? It is 60 inches so I presume that it goes on the curves as well? It is more material than needed to wrap the bow. Do I double wrap it or wrap it then trim it? Tacks or staples? Tack or staple which surface?
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun May 26, 2019 11:08 pm

Overall picture so far:
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun May 26, 2019 11:09 pm

Straight:
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:07 am

VowellArt wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:58 am
Because it only lays over the windshield and is held in place by the front windshield straps, the top straps that run across the bows from the rear bow and the covering.
I see from your picture that the 2 man top front bow top details are very different than the Classtique video which is for a 1 man top. Yet Classtique included what looks like a front flap vinyl piece pictured above. But yours does not have a front flap. I am confused about how to proceed.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon May 27, 2019 1:13 pm

I see these rivets to mount the hardware onto the top bows. Should I use them versus screws? I see the rivet tool for a air hammer but how do they actually work with the air hammer tool? https://www.modeltford.com/item/3897XT.aspx

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Mon May 27, 2019 3:45 pm

Instead of using those solid steel rivets, I used Aluminum tubular rivets...I got them from Snyders. Langs sells a solid aluminum rivet that works just as well as any steel rivet and is just as easy to set as the tubular rivet I used them on a couple of my bows, didn't have enough tubular rivets, so I finished the bows with the solid aluminum rivets from Langs. The tubular rivets are not pop rivets, they are aluminum rivets that are tubular about a quarter to half way down and are meant to be set with just a hammer (it is easier if you get somebody to help you hold either the bow or the ball end of the hammer against the rivet end though). With the solid aluminum rivets you're going to need help with those, because your going to have to hold the bow against an anvil or the one on your vise (rivet head down) whilst smacking the end with a hammer to flatten it somewhat (feather the edges so it doesn't show as bump under the drill material), it is just easier if somebody holds the bow for you. They're easier to install and don't take that stupid air hammer tool, on the tubular rivets I just used the ball end of my ball peen hammer (the ball side) and another hammer to smack it with. Screws are a definite no no, as they will chafe the bow drill and fray it (and maybe the top too). The rivets heads are large, somewhat flat and smooth so they won't chafe the material.

As for the straps, I got them from Lang's...one thing to note though...even though they are web straps on the rear, for some bloody reason they all come with a stupid "D" ring attached to them. A 22 doesn't have anything for that "D" ring to hook onto, like the pre-22's do. On the 22-25 the saddle arm comes out through the side of the quarter panel and not over the rear backrests tack rail as on the earlier cars.

TopDrawing.jpg
This is a drawing of the dimensions for a 1917, 2 man top, notice the placement of the rear straps? That's the same spot the 22's go too, but there's nothing to hook that "D" ring to, so you tack it to the outside of the tack rail in that spot. All of the dimensions should be the same, the important thing (and sometimes the hardest) is getting the 2nd and 3rd bow perpendicular to the body even if it flies in the face of the dimensions between those bows and the others.

SideFinishButtonDetail.jpg
You have to cut that "D" ring off, The straps get tacked (or nailed) to the outside of the rear seat tack rail and hook onto the inside of the rear bow. After your wrap the bow with the drill, you'll probably be able to feel for the holes that the footmans loop was screwed into the inside corner of the bow (it's the steel backside of the channel that the wood corners fit into). They're supposed to be back, but I got some stainless steel ones because I thought they looked nicer, your choice really, they also make them in brass and Lang's sells them too.

TakingSagOut.jpg
The front one screws into the inside of the front bow and you locate it the same way you found the rear one...the holes are already there, so just feel around for them. When you find one, use an awl (or ice pick) and shove it through the material, just so you can start the screws...otherwise the material is going to bunch and the footmans loop wont sit flat on the inside of the bow and besides it looks tacky too.

You keep calling your car a 22-23, if it has a 2 man top, it is a 22 not a 23, 23 is when the 1 man top was used. The body on a 22 is the same as the one used for the 23-25, but the top defines what year it is...1922 to about midway through that year 2 man top. About midway through 22-25 1 man top. So your car is either a 22 or a 23, not both, and judging by your posted pictures, it is plainly a 22.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon May 27, 2019 4:09 pm

Many thanks, that clarifies a lot. So the front bow details: Classtique shipped me what looks like a front flap but yours doesn't have a front flap. I don't know what to do. -- IV

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Mon May 27, 2019 4:11 pm

Something else to note...you always start with the rear curtain. Getting that correctly placed sets the dimensions for the rest of the top.

RearCurtainIstalled2.jpg
But sometimes, you just can't get those bloody wrinkles out...which happened to me.

To get them out, all you have to do is loosen up on the rear straps, and tighten up on the front windshield straps

RearCurtainRe-work.jpg
and it takes those wrinkles right out. Then re-cinch up on the rear straps to take the stress off the rear curtain.

I suggest you make this adjustment before you place your top pads. Because your going to loose control of the perpendicularity of the 3rd bow, it's going to be slight off perpendicular to the body. What you do is loosen up on the front straps a bit, remove the tacks on the straps that runs across the bows and reset your 3rd bow perpendicular and then re-tack those straps, readjust your fronts and that should fix that problem. Or you can just leave it because it is very slight and nobody (but you probably) will even notice it. ;)
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Mon May 27, 2019 4:38 pm

One thing I recommend is to get a copy of Vince Inccino's video on installing a 2 man top. He was a retired NYC fireman that retired and was making tops. He passed away, but his video's are still around and probably somebody has a copy of it. Anyhoo, the reason is because he shows a way to take the top deck (at the front, because that's where you finish installing your top), after your tack the front of the deck to the front bow (and just have the excess bulging corner fabric) cutting it along the corner of the bow about 2/3rds the way and then pulling that material forward and up around the corner to where the end of the windbreaker is, then tacking it to the corner (with the little slits to make it lay flat). It helps protect the corner of the bow from the weather. Sadly I didn't do that because I forgot to, oh well. :?

FrontFinished.jpg
This is how the windbreak is supposed to fit against the windshield, notice how you stretch it across the corners of the front bow...this makes the fabric fold back against the windshield, but it doesn't even roll down over the windshield as I think Classtique says it should, but then my top is a Cartouche kit. And if I could have remembered to do that fold over with the excess corner material (you cut it back to about just past the corner bend, then wrap it forward around the corner) it would've totally encased the front bow and looked much nicer too. ;)
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by noelchico » Mon May 27, 2019 5:37 pm

Last Fall I repaired the top on my 20 roadster. the previous owner had put a new top on it after hitting his garage door, but he and his friends had the top front bow sitting about 3 inches above the windshield. I had to remove the staples of the entire top, readjust the middle bow to remain at 90 degrees, and with assistance of the hot sun, stretch the fabric forward over the front bow and replace the welting. I also had to get new pads and straps as the ones on the car were too short. The windbreak fits well now and all looks great, until I hit about 30 mph or a headwind. the top tries to lift in the middle and the windbreak blows in over the windshield. My 23 touring has a snap fastener in the middle of the windbreak and that prevents this from happening. I'm tempted to put a snap, or maybe a common sense fastener in the middle of the 20 roadster windshield frame and windbreak, but haven't been able to take a close look at anybody's to see what is correct.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Mon May 27, 2019 5:42 pm

I sure hope where you're at your having some really nice and hot weather or your garage temp is set to 100 or so...I set my top outside last summer in 104º weather. It was the only way to get that fabric to stretch as much as we stretched it to. We did and redid it 3 times all around the car, to where Derrick thought that the seams would rip out, but I knew better, they're double over locked seams, so don't worry about pulling that fabric to tight...you cant over do it.

The fabric was so hot to the touch that we burned our fingers more than once just to hold onto it whilst stretching it. The problem with that kind of heat (here in the SFV it is a lot drier than in Houston, we've got very little humidity) is you get tired out rather quickly, so don't push it, take your time, it took us two weekends to complete my top. Which was good, (you're going to need a helper, trust me, I couldn't have done it by myself and I didn't, I had the help of a friend Derrick Pang), because it allowed both us and the fabric to relax a bit between struggles.

But also remember the reason you're pulling it is to remove all the wrinkles. If you set the top in cool weather and remove the wrinkles, when it gets hot (like in summer) the fabric is going to soften and sag (and you'll have wrinkles galore...your car is going to look it's age all wrinkled). But if you do it in summer, and pull all the wrinkles out, then it'll stay wrinkle free and even in winter.

One other thing I should mention...it doesn't look like your car has upholstery. If you're going to spring for new upholstery, you've got to install it BEFORE your top goes on (at least the rear seat, because the top rear curtain bottom goes over the rear seat upholstery. So, first your rear seat upholstery, then the rear top and curtain strain relief straps then the top and it's trim. So, don't install the top first, do your upholstery first, then the top!
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Mon May 27, 2019 6:04 pm

Nolechico, If that is happening then you set your front bow too far out and maybe a bit to high from your windshield, try curling it down over the glass . My windbreaker is set just to the windshield, but it is sitting 2 inches below the top of the windshield frame also, so there has never been a problem with it blowing up over my windshield...that said, you might want to put a piece of stiffening card or Mylar or thin clear plastic between your windbreaker and your bow, hold it place with 4 finishing tacks on the bottom of the front bow on the outside of the windbreaker...that way it should hold your windbreaker in place it doesn't have to extend far, just enough to stiffen the windbreaker a bit so it doesn't fly up and over your windshield. On my car all I had to do to stiffen the windbreaker was put in 5 of those finishing tacks evenly spaced along the bottom of the bow fairly close to the edge of the inside edge of the bow, just in case that stupid windbreaker decided to sag a bit...those tacks will keep that from happening), I used the finishing tacks because they're black and look nicer than nails or the regular tacks, it may not be the way it was supposed to be done, but it works and that's good enough for me. ;)
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu May 30, 2019 12:46 am

Classtique has the front bow detail for a 1922 touring here: https://youtu.be/QmitQsKBRmc


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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by DHort » Thu May 30, 2019 1:10 am

I see Classtique put their windbreaker on before the top. I tried to put it on after the top and finally gave up. No matter what I did, it sagged. I think I also tried to tack it every 3-4 inches, and I noticed on an old old car at a dealership that their tacks were closer to 5-6 inches apart. Just a little FYI.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:50 pm

VowellArt wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:58 am
Because it only lays over the windshield and is held in place by the front windshield straps, the top straps that run across the bows from the rear bow and the covering.
How do you know where to drill through for the rivets to place the footman loops for the front bow straps? How do you know at what angle the front bow is supposed to be?

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri May 31, 2019 8:25 pm

Pictured are the rear curtain straps, leather. So I take the d loop off and nail it on to the bow and tack strip through the leather? I will have to remove the loop rivets to get enough length to reach the bow and the tack strip right? How do you remove the rivets without damaging the leather?

After all that you punch a hole in the leather so that the buckle works?
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri May 31, 2019 8:28 pm

I found a video that showed how to drill the rivets out. But the question remains should I?

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri May 31, 2019 10:22 pm

It took me awhile to get the orientation of the back parts.

1) So the Common Sense's go in the rear tack rail and I tack all of this to the top?

2) Why did they leave off the 2 male Common Sense's on the straight edge of the side curtains?

3) I assume the rear window curtain goes inside the side curtains and that they overlap about 2 inches?

4) Are the 2 straps pictured for the purposes of rolling up the rear curtain? If so, does it tack to the rear bow and just hang down when not in use? If so, where do I place the male Common Sense's?
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:02 am

Here we are an article by Royce Peterson with lots of pictures that explains nearly all.

https://modeltfordfix.com/installing-a- ... r-model-t/


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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by George Hand » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:22 pm

Ignacio. I gather you are changing a 1923 Body to be correct on a '22, good info given. I have a complete '22 fendered chassis unrestored that I put together w/parts. The original body was taken for a street rod, and the man I bought it from did it for a client. So maybe someday as 23-5's seem to be more plentiful than '22''s, even though a cowl change maybe necessary ( I have a 22ish cowl already) I have a photo of my mother at about 6mo. old setting on a siblings lap with other siblings setting on the running board of a T best guess is that the car was a 1922, I do have a 1920 and we have detected small differences like a 3 panel rear verses a 5 panel rear on the 1920.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by RustyFords » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:36 pm

Looking good Ignacio.

I'll be putting a top on mine at some point and, although mine is a one-man top, a lot of this applies to either type of top.

I'm bookmarking this thread.
1924 Touring

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:50 am

Ignacio, You rear curtain and front straps should be woven web straps, not leather. The woven webs don't have buckles like leathers do, they've got slip buckles sort of like web belts for pants have and they're easier to adjust. I didn't bother to drill out the rivets on mine, I just cut the strap high up near those rivets, so that I had most of the material hanging below the tack rail, so I could really mount it with good sturdy nails (these straps on the back take the stress off the rear curtain when you erect your top, the front ones pull forward and the rear ones keeps the stress of the curtain and place it onto the straps).

So, you got a roll up real curtain too, eh? Can't for the life of me figure out why, I know most people say putting a top on your car slows it down some, that's true with 1 man tops, but not with 2 man tops. 1 man tops have gypsy wings that wrap around the real bow to the second bow and snap on, this cups wind in the rear curtain. A 2 man top doesn't have that, so no wind isn't caught by the curtain. Anyhoo, those straps you're holding are to hold the rolled up rear curtain, they nail to the top of the rear bow with a standoff nail, that the eyeholes hook onto.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:07 am

Ignacio, you don't drill through the rivets on your bows, you feel for the old holes on the inside corners of your front and rear bow. You'll feel a slight depression as though there might be a hole there, push the tip of an ice pick or awl in and feel around for the holes, they're there (believe me you'll find them if you feel around a bit). Me when I was covering by bows I marked them, so I knew where they'd be. Also you may have to bend the screw tabs on the footman's loop a bit to fit the curvature of your inside corners, I did, but then my footman's loops were new, I didn't bother using the originals again. When you find them, make a small hole with either the point of an exacto knife or a nail, just so you can start the screw. Drive the screw all the way down, if you have to, cut any excess bow drill that gathers round the screw (I just used the screw and ran the knife round it). Then remove the screw(s) and put your footmans loop on. The other thing I should mention, is that the screws they sell with those footman's loops are fine thread machine screws, I went down to the hardware store and bought the same finish but wood screws, I wanted to make sure they bit into the wood in the corners (never sure with a machine screw, fine or corase thread).
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:09 am

Progress, I have a side pad up. Used the Royce Peterson method of gluing down the burlap then nail it up.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:30 am

It is done! Royce Patterson's article was very helpful: https://modeltfordfix.com/installing-a- ... r-model-t/

Here are some pictures of the final results: 1) Top pad stapled down. 2) Again, 3) Weather flap side. 4) Back curtain on. 5) Top deck on.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:34 am

More pictures:
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Completed.
Completed.
Rear curtain rolled up.
Rear curtain rolled up.
Rear curtain down.
Rear curtain down.


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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by DHort » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:43 am

Looks very nice. Good job.

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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by VowellArt » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:16 am

The back looks nice, but you should've pulled harder on the top deck sides, those aren't going to come out in the sun...the fabric doesn't shrink it expands, soooo, it going to get looser. I stretch and pulled my 3 times (first both ends, they both sides, then repeat) until I could bounce a quarter off any place on the top...you might be able to pull them out once the top deck gets really good and hot, but you might need a pair of canvas stretching pliers to do it though or some very strong fingers. The excess will show up on the ends though...you might have to judge which end would be easier to remove it from...to me the rear would be easier, but I'm not sure with that roll up back there...looks nice though.
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Re: 1922-23 two man top.

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Thanks, forecast is mid-90's through labor day so I may get a chance to re-stretch it.

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