Hub & Fellow Paint

[Craig Leach]

I'm working on setting up a hole set of 21" steel fellow demountables, rather than respoke the set I have. (the old ones may be used as is on
another car)

I seem to remember a discushion about the pros & cons of powder coating the wheel parts. I have not decided if I will paint or varnish the
spokes. The powder coater charges the same to sand blast & P.C. as he does to just sand blast. He said that customers get too picky about the
sand blasting so it is more labor intensive. So I figured it would be easyer to have the hubs, plates & fellows powder coated at the same time.
They also do lite & heavy P.C. if asked. I have had 3 sets of wrires done by them & have been very satisfied with their work.

Does anyone remember that discusion or have experience with powder coating wheel parts pro or con? I would appreciate your thoughts &
comments. Thanks.
Craig.

[havnfun]

Craig, you will have to custom fit the spokes as powder coating adds to dimensions and requires sanding each spoke to fit when pressed in. Another option to have a wheel builder custom make spokes, the ones from the vendors will not fit after powder coating. I helped a gal in our local club two years ago to address this very issue, took sanding and fitting each spoke till we pressed them in and had a good round wheel. It’s labor intensive, so if you decide to powder coat, first talk to a wheel builder and see if they’ll build and fit spokes for your project. Otherwise, be prepared for lots of sanding and fitting to press spokes and end up with good rolling wheels.

[Steve Jelf]

Whether you paint or varnish is of little practical importance. It's an aesthetic choice, for some people informed by history. While "natural" wheels did become an option on 26-27 cars, actual pictures of them are mostly in Ford advertising. I think most real-world contemporary photos show painted wheels. Varnished wheels may have been a dealer option before 1926, but few people chose them. They are pretty much a modern fad.

I have painted assembled wheels, and I have painted spokes before assembling them. It didn't seem to me that either way was better than the other. When painting spokes before assembly I did avoid over spray on the fit-together flat parts. I have never tried powder coating. My wheel paint is gloss black appliance epoxy enamel. It has held up very well.

[Craig Leach]

Oops I should have stated I will be the wheel builder, These wheels will go on my firetruck. The wheels are in good condition but I do many
parades that because I can carry more than the average model T I can haul more dignataries/grand marshals & beauty Queens than most
antique cars and the wheels that my BIL, RIP respoked 30 some years ago have been through alot of heavy loads and I would like to be
proactive when it comes to safety. It's a firetruck so only about 1/3 of it is even close to orriginal. It does alot of school presentaions, parades &
local cruises/car shows & trunk or treats. I'm more interested in how the public perseaves it than how the model T people do they know it's not orriginal. I have had 1,000s of kids get their picture taken in it and hopefully they will remember it because it looked good rather than how
orriginal it was.

If the powder coat is thin as paint or primer does anyone think its a problem. I can ask the powder coater to limit the amount of powder used?
These wheels where vanished spokes & painted fellows & hubs before but my attempt to paint just the hubs & fellows was not one of my most
proud accomlishments so they are all red now.
Thanks.
Craig

[Wayne Sheldon]

Thicker powder coat is better for protection of the metal, and maybe the glassy bright finish? However, I would not expect it to be bullet proof enough to withstand the wear and pounding it will take between the felly and the spoke ends. If it does indeed break down as I expect it would, it would introduce a looseness that wasn't there when the wheel was assembled. That in turn would allow motion which in turn would add to the wear on the spoke ends leading to a loose wheel which could then become unsafe.

The simple fact is, I have heard of this happening a couple times. A few times may not be much to go on? On the other hand, I suspect most powder coated wheels haven't been driven thousands of miles yet.
I have never had anything powder coated. If I do in the future? I probably would not powder coat the fellies because I would then feel the need to scrape it off the fellies where the spokes contact them, and that would in turn partially defeat the purpose of powder coating.

I even make sure the paint is very thin on the fellies before assembly where the spokes make contact.
Wheels need to be TIGHT!

But that is me.

[Allan]

Good luck getting the outside plate pnro s powder coated hub!

Allan from down under.

[OilyBill]

When I delivered my wheel rims and hubs to Stutzman for my 1910 Brush Roadster (30 X 3 clincher rims, 24" diameter), I had them already powder coated. I had called him before I loaded up the rims and hubs, as I was headed east and decided to drop them off. When I called him prior to leaving, to get his views on the powder coating, he said he was fine with it, and I should get everything done before I brought them, as he does not do powder coating, so that is what I did.

When I delivered them to his shop, he looked everything over very carefully, and said "They look good, no problem" and I trust Noah's judgement since he has been working on wheels his entire life, and with his father who was also a wheel-wright, before he took over the business.

A good, tight wheels should have no movement between any of the parts, for many years. I have another Model T clincher rim (non-demountable) that was done by Garrigan Wheel 25 years ago, and it has not loosened or changed tone in any way in all that time in the Arizona desert. When I rap the spokes, I get the same solid "THUNK" that I got when I first unboxed them after he sent them to me. I check them every 3-4 years, but so far nothing has changed.

I should note that the Garrigan wheel is intended to be painted. The Brush wheels will be natural, but generally, this was only a fad that started in the 1970's, and I consider natural wood wheels to be less than optimal. I would NOT be doing it, EXCEPT I want to emphasize all the natural wood on the Brush, because it had a completely wooden frame, wooden body, wooden wheels, and wooden axles, front and rear. Because this is simply a display issue, I decided on it for this car, but I WOULD NOT DO NATURAL WOOD WHEELS ON ANY OTHER CAR. In fact, the OTHER Brush I own (A 1910 Runabout) will have fully painted wheels.

Also, in all the parts books for several cars, Franklin, REO, Overland, Studebaker, and BRUSH all say "Replacement wheels can be supplied in any color, but it is faster to order them in lead (That is, gray lead primer) and have them painted locally by a paint shop that can match the color you prefer. This avoids wasted time and will give you the quickest service. All replacement wheels are supplied standard in a lead finish unless a particular color is ordered." The words may very slightly, but the statements are basically the same for all the manufacturers whose parts books I have looked through. I have yet to see ANY MANUFACTURER offer the availability of natural wood in their wheels. For one thing, I think most of the manufacturers (at least the ones I list here) usually ordered wheels from a contract manufacturer, and thus all the wheels they ordered arrived in lead finish, ready for whatever color paint the car company planned to use, and they simply weren't going to take the time to send out a set of natural wood wheels.

Another reason would be that unpainted wooden wheels simply do not last as long as fully-finished wheels. If you had asked for a naturally finished wood wheel from a shop in 1920, they would have shaken their heads and looked at you like you were crazy. I cannot think of anyone, except a very wealthy eccentric who would have ordered naturally finished wheels on their vehicle, whether an automobile, or a horse-drawn vehicle. Like I said, this natural wheel finish fad started in the late 1960's/early 1970's.

If you want to see what maintenance is required on natural wood wheels, just pick up a copy of "Wooden Boat" magazine, and read some of the articles on maintaining a wooden boat, with all it's fine exposed finishes. Those owners are REALLY committed to owning a wooden boat, and they finish them and decorate them to highlight they are wooden boats. If you park a wooden boat next to boat made of plastic or aluminum or steel, you can tell which one is the wooden boat in a 2 second glance. The vast majority of these committed owners sand and refinish their boats once a year, and I have seen articles by owners who refinish all the "brightwork" (That is NOT brass, that is the polished and clear coated wood trim) twice a year.

I anticipate getting away with my Brush natural wood wheels, because I will use it fairly rarely, it will be otherwise well-stored and protected, and will not ever be left out in the weather, thus the only real risk will be getting into a rain shower during a tour. (Which I am prepared to weather, with no pun intended) Even so, I estimate right now, before I ever put the completed beautiful wheels back on the car, that I will see only 50% of the lifetime that I would get with fully painted wheels. I doubt I will ever have to redo any of the other wheels on any of my other cars, but I anticipate the Brush will be the one that needs it first. This is a penalty I am willing to pay, due to the uniqueness of the automobile in it's entirety.

Carefully cared for, wooden wheels can last a LONG time. I know a 1910 EMF, that was pulled out of a barn in 1953, restored in 1954, and then run until 1984, at which time the same owner restored it a second time, with a full disassembly and repairs of all parts needing work, and then put it back together by 1987. That car is just as roadworthy now as it was when it was finished in 1987. It is now coming up on OVER 35 years since the 1987 restoration, but it's current owner, who purchased the car after the death of the first owner I mention, has only had the car out for 8 or 10 drives in the intervening time. The wood wheels on this car have been cleaned, stripped, reprimed and repainted at each restoration, but they have never had a felloe or spoke replaced, being just as sound as when the car was built in 1910. I also would like to point out that that car also has it's original babbitt in the engine bearings, which were checked in 1954 and found OK, and then checked again in 1987 and still found to be perfectly fine, and I think only 1 shim from each main engine bearing has ever been removed over the years. I can see that car running fine in 2100, assuming any gasoline is still available.

The gentlemen who owned this car toured aggressively. When I say aggressively, the first restoration in 1954 was completed on a Thursday night, and the owner drove the car around the block for a final test run after adjusting everything. The following morning at 7 am, he departed with the car on a tour to the Grand Canyon. NOT TRAILERED. He drove the car from his house in Tucson to the Grand Canyon for an HCCA tour, drove through the entire tour, and then drove home again, in his EMF. He was a meticulous restorer, and when he was done with an assembly or an engine, he rightfully expected it to run like it did when it was new, and they always did.

But enough topic drift. Just my two pfennigs on wooden wheels.