1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

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Marshall V. Daut
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1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:24 pm

I am helping a local friend straighten out a very poorly "restored" 1920 Touring. Virtually NOTHING works. I have slowly brought this creature back to something akin to life, mostly centering around electrical problems that a previous owner completely skipped over, including a non-functioning starter and generator. But, I digress.
The problem du jours that is frustrating me at the moment is how to reassemble the horn button pieces. While tracing a non-functioning horn, I removed the horn button assembly from the column and found one wire broken at its connection point. I repaired that and by using a screwdriver to short between the two wires, the horn now makes a sound - not the correct one, of course, as it's a repo chrome Model A J.C. Whitney-quality ahooga horn (SURPRISE!!!). But at least now the horn button will activate whatever it's connected to. :) But for the life of me, I cannot seem to get all the internal guts back together inside the button housing enough to even make the center bolt exit the housing. I have not seen this Rube Goldberg style of internal button configuration in my previous forays into assembling Model T horn buttons. This one has three "arms" in a "Y" configuration around a squared shaft. I see three brass divots on the other piece for these to contact when the button is pushed. Two arms stay rigid, while the third one swings on the squared shaft, which I assume is supposed to contact the ground divot. The problem I am fighting is keeping the three arms lined up against their respective divots to establish electrical contact. The "ground" arm swings freely like a broken clock pointer. No matter what I do, I cannot cram everything back together and line things up enough to squeeze the two housing halves together enough to start the center bolt and nut. Is there some state secret on how this mess can be easily and correctly put back together again? When was this design superseded by one more user friendly?
If needed, I can photograph this horn button assembly tomorrow. Later ones I have worked on were SOOOOOOOO much more simplified and easier to reassemble. I pity the poor worker in 1920 who had to install these things on the assembly line, 10 hours a day, 6 1/2 days a week!
Marshall


Rich P. Bingham
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:27 pm

Photos will certainly help !
Get a horse !


Topic author
Marshall V. Daut
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:36 pm

It's not this one, which is WAY simpler than what I am working with.
Marshall
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Model T horn button.jpg

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JTT3
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by JTT3 » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:39 pm

Is there a possibility it is the horn light combination switch?


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Marshall V. Daut
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:10 pm

In response to an off-line message:
Yes, thank you, Scott. I found that diagram on-line, but dismissed it because a couple details varied from the configuration I am working on. Our button doesn't have serrated edges, there is no spring between the button and the assembly's center piece, no "C" clip on the backside to hold the parts together around the squared shaft, and I don't see that flopping around third "arm" that is causing me nightmares during re-assembly. I wonder if that arm is on the diagram? It looks like it might be plastered against the center piece, pointing to the left. But what holds it there during assembly? "JTT3" may be right that this a conglomeration of horn button parts. 'Wouldn't surprise me at all with this car. Possibly parts are missing, as I see no way to hold everything in alignment when reassembling the unit. Perhaps that missing "C" clip is the root of the problem? I'll take photos tomorrow of what I working with. Maybe someone else has run across this switch and knows what to do?
Marshall


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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by DHort » Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:59 pm

I think the metal piece that wraps around the steering column shrinks when it is taken apart. At least I know mine did. There is no way it will ever fit on the steering column again, unless a genie puts it there. I just say 'Honk Honk'.

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TRDxB2
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:05 am

Marshall V. Daut wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:10 pm
In response to an off-line message:
Yes, thank you, Scott. I found that diagram on-line, but dismissed it because a couple details varied from the configuration I am working on. Our button doesn't have serrated edges, there is no spring between the button and the assembly's center piece, no "C" clip on the backside to hold the parts together around the squared shaft, and I don't see that flopping around third "arm" that is causing me nightmares during re-assembly. I wonder if that arm is on the diagram? It looks like it might be plastered against the center piece, pointing to the left. But what holds it there during assembly? "JTT3" may be right that this a conglomeration of horn button parts. 'Wouldn't surprise me at all with this car. Possibly parts are missing, as I see no way to hold everything in alignment when reassembling the unit. Perhaps that missing "C" clip is the root of the problem? I'll take photos tomorrow of what I working with. Maybe someone else has run across this switch and knows what to do?
Marshall
Here are some pictures to help. I have 3 combo switches that I am restoring all needing the c clip. Would help to see a picture of the button - may be a modified one. You do need a spring between the button & assembly (I'll get a picture of one and add it here) and the contact on the underside for horn wire.
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wire up.jpg
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question.jpg
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this is the non-comobo assembly plate
Horn switch bolts.jpg
417316.jpg
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Topic author
Marshall V. Daut
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:16 am

The horn button is definitely the one on top in the vertical row to the right, T-8028E for an electric horn. I'll check the backside of the center piece (what the heck is it called?) tomorrow and report back.
Marshall


Topic author
Marshall V. Daut
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:58 am

Here are photos of the Frankenstein suspected mismatched horn button assembly from my friend's 1920 Touring (with starter/generator). As you can see, one mounting bracket is broken off (circled in yellow) the contact piece and the other parts cannot be assembled without a coil spring and C-clip. Or does the brass "tongue" in the center act as the return spring for the button so that no coil spring is required? I should think that is the case, or else why is this springy tongue even there? An additional ground? The correct size C-clamp shouldn't be too difficult to find at a hardware store to hold this mess together. But given the problems with this thing (especially a broken and missing mounting bracket), I think I'll recommend my friend order a new CORRECT and complete horn button assembly for a Model T with an electrical system including a starter and generator. The way things are going now, however, is this part even available anymore? It seems that half of what I order from vendors these days is either "out of stock" or has been "discontinued". Should we be able to buy a new assembly, I'll give this mess to anyone here, who needs the parts for his restoration. I think my friend will go along with that.
By the way, this car has side lights and demountable rims. I believe it was probably a non-starter/generator car that has a later engine and demountables added. That would explain the myriad of mismatched parts on this car. I'll check engine numbers on Monday to verify if it's the correct 1920 engine.
Marshall
Attachments
20231104_101432_resized.jpg
20231104_101347_resized.jpg
20231104_101222_resized.jpg
20231104_101157_resized.jpg
Klemme-Horn button problem.jpg

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Humblej
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Humblej » Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:12 pm

Looks like a horn button with light switch. That brass tongue in the center is for the horn contact, the brass bar with the dimples is the light switch contacts.


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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by Dan Hatch » Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:23 pm

Aren’t they ( horn light combo switches) for mag lights and horns? Don’t they ground at switch.?

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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:49 pm

Dan Hatch wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:23 pm
Aren’t they ( horn light combo switches) for mag lights and horns? Don’t they ground at switch.?
Good question - I corrected my image above for wiring the combo switch plate.

The wiring diagram blow is specific to a terminal block note: dimmer & magneto. The switch can be connected to corresponding light positions on later terminal blocks
By Phil Mino on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 06:38 am:
From the December, 1921 Service Bulletin -
44570.jpg
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By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, January 05, 2008 -
Terminal T-8894A is the magnito wire as you suspect.
Horn T-7917B goes to the horn. (To ground the horn, at the factory, they took off the insulating washer and put the nut on tight! (Thanks, Trent))
Lights (bright) T-7305 goes to the headlights, wired in series. (On yours, the wire goes across the radiator and then is grounded on the side of the radiator.)
Lights (dim) T-8898 goes to the dimmer unit, (p/n 8892 X) then to the headlights.
Attachments
44584.jpg
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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by speedytinc » Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:37 pm

Be warned that repop horn buttons (were?) poorly made, in that you couldnt press the button & get contact.
There was not a wide enough grove in the button to allow enough movement.
I cant say if the problem still exists. I avoid repop stuff as much as possible.


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Re: 1920 Horn button frustration - HELP!!!

Post by PuzzleTFord » Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:24 am

FYI regarding the horn/light switch, yes there should a round spring that goes around the shaft under the button to push the button away from the horn contact. The c-clip stops it from all falling out. The tab that is "swinging around" under the button should actually be permanently connected on its free end, to a rivet that corresponds to a screw on the bottom of the switch. This screw gets the hot lead.

Power comes to the switch on this one wire, which connects through its screw to your broken tab. When the tab is not broken, the other end is contacting the shaft, perhaps through being squeezed against the contact bar by the missing spring. This energizes the metal shaft and its brass contact bar. This power can then be distributed to high or low lights by rotating the switch/contact bar, or to the horn contact by pushing the button in. So, one wire goes in for power, three wires out for dim, bright, and horn.

When that tab came loose and started swinging around, neither horn nor lights would ever work again.


I don't know if the regular battery horn button has any extra spring, beyond the spring-y-ness of the larger contact. I don't have one. And it appears the button stays in place by being clamped in it's groove by the lip of the metal housing? If so, as soon as the housing gets crooked, away goes the button.

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