Spinning Races - help

[Arbs]

While I had the wheels off to replace my spindle bushings, I figured I would install my front bearing set.

The old bearings came out easy and the races needed some persuasion. It wasn't a brutal fight as some describe, but definitely required a creative tool and some hammering. It took about 10 minutes for the driver's side.

With that behind me, I got my new races out of the box and I was surprised that the inner race slipped right in and was loose. I tried the outer and had the same result. Here is a video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/C1FAykr3P5vMSTYZ6

I tested the gap with a feeler gauge. I was able to force a .010 into the gap but not a .015. Given the curve of the hub and the width of the gauge, I'm not sure I can get a better measurement.

Well, that's not supposed to happen. Do I need new hubs (yikes!)? I searched the forum and saw some people used a Loctite product but I wanted to put it out there to you all. Have you used Loctite or some other solution? Thoughts?

[TWrenn]

Yes there is a loctite product that will take care of it. Sadly, my memory fails me, but rest assured I'm gonna watch your thread for the info and then I'm gonna BUY ONE for myself, "just in case"! I love having stuff I may never need, but "just in case". Drives my wife nuts!!

[TWrenn]

It just MIGHT be this stuff! Being no expert, I still prefer to hear from someone who "been der, done dat"!!

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... RecID=7415

[Arbs]

Yes there is a loctite product that will take care of it. Sadly, my memory fails me, but rest assured I'm gonna watch your thread for the info and then I'm gonna BUY ONE for myself, "just in case"! I love having stuff I may never need, but "just in case". Drives my wife nuts!!

Ha!

With the way things regularly go on and off back order, or get discontinued I'm feeling the same way. If you can afford it, buy it when you see it.

[2nighthawks]

Despite the parts on the boxes, I'm wondering if by some mistake, the new races could be for Model A instead of Model T,...???

[2nighthawks]

....oops! I meant to say,....despite the parts NUMBERS on the boxes....

[Oldav8tor]

I've used loctite 609 for the same reason and with great success.

[Arbs]

....oops! I meant to say,....despite the parts NUMBERS on the boxes....

Thanks for the reply 2nighthawks... The inner race is loose too and it has the part number stamped on it. Looking at Langs kit, this is the correct race.

[Scott_Conger]

Loctite 609 is an excellent choice when a bond line is very small and is a staple for repair in my shop. The video shows a good deal more gap that what 609 is really intended for...I personally would not use it for this job after seeing the video.

Without seeing/holding/measuring the problem part myself, I can not make a specific product recommendation as there are several good choices, each
intended for slightly different dynamics. However, once the bond line is determined, there are a couple of suitable products that can be used. Based on your estimate of the bond line thickness, his may be one of them: Loctite 660 https://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Show ... rization=2 or Loctite 620 https://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Show ... rization=2

Realize that there is some fixturing required and I will not explain it to avoid misunderstandings or liability, nor am I recommending either of the above products...only that you acquaint yourself with their cure rates, physical properties when cured, and determine for yourself whether or not either are fit for your use. All of this information is readily available with only a modest amount of research.

It is tough to accept that the original races fought you on the way out, while the new ones drop in, but if that's what transpired, then that's that. I would be certain to make sure that a good hubcap threads all of the way on before doing any repairs. If the hub got swollen from race removal, the hubcap will not fit and would explain why the new race falls in. If that is the case (lets hope not) then hub replacement is in order.

Good luck and stay safe.

[Arbs]

It is tough to accept that the original races fought you on the way out, while the new ones drop in, but if that's what transpired, then that's that. I would be certain to make sure that a good hubcap threads all of the way on before doing any repairs. If the hub got swollen from race removal, the hubcap will not fit and would explain why the new race falls in. If that is the case (lets hope not) then hub replacement is in order.

Good luck and stay safe.

Thanks Scott. I was just reviewing the specs on Loctite 660.

I just tested the hub and it ran down with the hub tool...

Here you can see an example of the minimal hammering needed to loosen the old races... https://photos.app.goo.gl/FFwwXHkmLP9dmBR17 <- fixed the link from my original reply

[Norman Kling]

The locktite might help if it is almost tight, however if not, it will eventually break loose. There are two ways to go, and I don't know whether your hub is worn or if the new race is too loose, however if it spins while driving, it will wear more and your wheel will wobble. Another hub might work if the problem is wear in the hub, but if the bearing is too small, it will just spin with another hub. If you can find another source of bearing with a different manufacturer, you might be in luck. I had a similar problem with one of mine about 20 years ago and took it to a very good machinist who turned the hub very slightly, installed a sleeve to fit and turned the inside to fit the bearing. It is still in the car and I have had no further problems. But you need an expert machinist to do this because you do not have much material to work with in the outside bearing.
Norm

[Dan Hatch]

Metro metalizing for shaft repair will work. But you will need to find a machine shop that can do it for you. Years ago it was $75.00 a hub to get it done here.
What is so bad is a person can’t get $50 for a good hub at a swap meet. Dan

[Harvey Bergstrom]

It seems unusual to have bearing races fall into the hub after your old ones were tight as they should be and took a little hammering to remove. I installed new wheel brgs in my 24 touring and had good luck in doing so. My thought is if you had the right race no., you might need a different hub. As a farmer with experience with bearings in wheels and other applications, I have peened the surface the race fits against and have had good success with that. Many good thoughts from others replying to you . Good luck!

[TRDxB2]

From Loctite https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/ ... g+compound
As I remember from a video of theirs that these products were designed for rotation shear and not lateral shear.

LOCTITE® 609 is a green, high strength methacrylate ester acrylic retaining compound designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts. The product cures in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. Typical applications include rotor to shafts in fractional and subfractional horsepower motors. Locks bushings and sleeves in housings on shafts. Augments press fits.
--
--
LOCTITE® 638 is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly with narrow bond gaps approaching 0.25 mm. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close-fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage due to shock and vibration. It not only works on active metals but also on passive substrates, exhibiting robust cure performance. The product offers high-temperature performance and good oil tolerance, and tolerates minor surface contaminants.
--
--
LOCTITE® 680 is a green, high strength, methacrylate ester acrylic liquid designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly where low viscosity is required. The product prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration. It provides robust curing performance. It works on active metals (e.g. mild steel) and on passive substrates (e.g. stainless steel and plated surfaces).

[Craig Leach]

Hi Dan,
I hate to be like this but if the bearing race falls into the hub & its the right bearing the hub is junk! Yes it can be fixed and it may cost
a lot and replacement hubs may be hard to find & expensive! ( how much did the new bearings cost?) I would ask Dan Hatch and
everyone on the forum if they have good ones for sale. I would offer him more than $50 if he has some. I'm sure the replacement cost of
a loved one ( wife, child, grandkid or good friend) is more than the cost of 2 hubs. Loctite makes very good products. But those bearings
are responsible for guiding and keeping the front wheels on!
Craig.

We should all be grateful that we don't get all the government we pay for. Will Rodgers.

[Allan]

Perhaps the bearings removed were installed with a product to make up for some wear in the hub. That would explain why the new bearings are loose. I am sure there will be a lLoctite product capable of compensating for the wear in the hub.I was once told that if using such a product in this application, the bearings and hub should be assembled as a unit, and the bearings adjusted up firmly, so that the assembled wheel and bearings are centred/aligned on the spindle.That made sense to me.

Allan from down under.

[AndreFordT]

This is maybe not the right way to do it but this worked for me.
I cut a few strips out of an empty coca cola can.
The strips have the width of the bearing races and are just long enought to fit around the races.
Used fast gleu to keep the strip around the races.
It give my a press fit in the hub.
Used the loctite stuff as glue between the hub and the races.

Just what I did.

Andre
Belgium

[speedytinc]

Locktite 660 is the correct stuff to fill the gap.
I have used successfully in hubs & the Rux ball bearing races.
Its thick, like tooth paste. Prep surfaces, spread on & spin. It will solidify as you turn your race until you cant turn no more.

[John Illinois]

I have used 660 with good results. I apply it and install the wheel on the spindle to clamp the race in. There is usually a wear pattern in the back of the hub to center the new race.


John

[jab35]

Arbs: I'm curious, What are the diameters of the old and new parts? thanks, jb

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Arbs: I'm curious, What are the diameters of the old and new parts? thanks, jb

Excellent question.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Some thoughts... for what they're worth...

The inner races can be a loose fit and still need to be driven out. The hub bore only wears where the race sits, and not where the hub seal goes. So, you'll need to tap out the race to get it past the seal area. It makes you think the hub isn't worn...

Old races may seem to be tight in old hubs that haven't been used in decades. Sometimes, it's only the dried-up grease and oil that has them "glued" in place.

Outer races may also seem to be snug when you remove them due to small burrs and other abuse that rolls over metal at the nose of the hub. Pushing out the old race, forces it over these spots, making things seem snug/tight. Once the old race pushes these high spots back, and without those same interferences in play, the new race simply drops in.

The old races can also be split, or maybe even swollen, by overly tightened bearings or previous accidents.

Driving out old races unevenly by allowing them to get cocked in the hubs, can swell the hub and ruin it.

For loose inner races, I have carefully closed up the hub bores by repeatedly hammering the outside of the hub with a ball pein hammer. With the hub firmly supported by an anvil, or other significant hunk of metal, I beat on the hub repeatedly while slowly rotating it. Don't hit it too hard or you'll get the hole out-of-round! Many small hits and lots of patience does the trick.

[Arbs]

The old races can also be split, or maybe even swollen, by overly tightened bearings or previous accidents.

Jerry,

I noticed the "split" in the old races and incorrectly assumed they were meant to be that way. Well, after a more careful look and clean up, I'm realizing they are the same type of timkin races that I bought from langs but broken.

I haven't done the passenger side yet but I quickly looked at the old races installed on the hub and they appear fine.

A replacement hub is looking more and more in order, but maybe I only need the one.

[Scott_Conger]

I'll offer this advice/request:

every year, people send truckloads of good "T" parts to the dump. It's just a fact. And in a very large percentage of modern repairs, no restoration actually takes place, just worn parts tossed aside for less-worn parts. Though inconceivable to many, there will come a day when your old hub will be a prized piece to be repaired and has the opportunity to help keep a car on the road.

That can only happen if that part actually exists in the future. If you take the path of finding another, better hub (and that's a rational choice for many people), please consider keeping the old hub anywhere but at the scrap yard.

[Art M]

A split bearing ring normally is caused by an excessively loose mounting fit. The outer ring in this application must have an interference fit.
If the new bearing is installed with an adhesive, care must be given to maintain acceptable wheel runout, mostly wobble. As Scott commented, this would require a lot of skill.
I cannot comment about the durability of any adhesive in this case.

Art Mirtes

[TXGOAT2]

I suspect the split race, or a previous split race, allowed your hub to be expanded. It's also possible the hub is cracked. A better hub would be the best choice, epecially if the car is expected to be driven much.

[Dan Hatch]

Got a pm From you. Email me at address in picture. Thanks Dan

7151DF5F-376C-4DA6-B898-8C8F5BCD71D5.jpeg (34.02 KiB) Viewed 10192 times

[Perry Goble]

I just had my 70 th birthday , A classmate of mine farther had a large mechanic shop in town . I became good friend of his father and was a pallbearer at his funeral . He had driven Model T fords in his youth as every day transportation . This is how he taught me how to repair loose wheel bearing sleeves . take a small cold chisel grind away the two sides so you have a point . lay the sleeve on the workbench . take the chisel and put the point at the top of the flat side of the sleeve that makes contact with the hub . tap with a hammer .It will make a debit in the sleeve ,move the down a little and repeat the process .when you get to the bottom move over and start another line . do this all away around the sleeve . you are creating sharp points that will dig into the hub and hold it in place . This method has worked for me through the years . good luck .

[Arbs]

I just had my 70 th birthday , A classmate of mine farther had a large mechanic shop in town . I became good friend of his father and was a pallbearer at his funeral . He had driven Model T fords in his youth as every day transportation . This is how he taught me how to repair loose wheel bearing sleeves . take a small cold chisel grind away the two sides so you have a point . lay the sleeve on the workbench . take the chisel and put the point at the top of the flat side of the sleeve that makes contact with the hub . tap with a hammer .It will make a debit in the sleeve ,move the down a little and repeat the process .when you get to the bottom move over and start another line . do this all away around the sleeve . you are creating sharp points that will dig into the hub and hold it in place . This method has worked for me through the years . good luck .

Happy Birthday Perry! I saw references to hammering the inside surface of the hub with a punch in some old forum posts. I believe at least one or two of them mentioning that it should look like the surface of a strawberry when done. I like the idea of a chisel, especially if it's curve matched the curve of the hub. I'm looking for a replacement hub at the moment but I will keep this in mind if I ever need to use the bad hub.

I just found a post mentioning this: https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=21026#p161125

I take Scott Conger's comment seriously. Our worn out or bad parts today may be someone's key to getting a T on the road in the future, so I won't be ditching the old hub.

[TXGOAT2]

China has plenty of scrap metal to feed their military machine.

[dobro1956]

Arbs, The link you posted above is an old post of mine. The "strawberry fit" I described will work very well when used with a locktite press fit type of product. The "strawberry seeds" act as a centering device. The large number of "seeds" very accurately will hold the race centered. Make sure to inspect the hub for cracks. A cracked hub should not be used. Like I mentioned in the link. Make your own decisions as to the use of this technique.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Arbs, The link you posted above is an old post of mine. The "strawberry fit" I described will work very well when used with a locktite press fit type of product. The "strawberry seeds" act as a centering device. The large number of "seeds" very accurately will hold the race centered. Make sure to inspect the hub for cracks. A cracked hub should not be used. Like I mentioned in the link. Make your own decisions as to the use of this technique.

Without the use of loctite, the dimples you create will soon wear down and leave things just as loose as when you began. Even with the loctite, as Donnie says, "use your own judgement."

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

If you truly want to rebuild this hub, the "right way", you could take it to a machine shop, have the bores ground slightly oversize, or at least trued up. Then, have the bores hard chromed, then ground back to the proper size. It would be expensive. There may be some spray weld techniques that might also work.

Just how much size difference are you seeing? Can you accurately measure the hub bores and bearing OD's?

[Arbs]

Just how much size difference are you seeing? Can you accurately measure the hub bores and bearing OD's?

The caliper I have won't get deep enough into the hub to measure the seats of the races, and I can see the race seat is worn more than the rest of the hub bores.

[Scott_Conger]

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-t ... -zEALw_wcB

[Arbs]

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-t ... -zEALw_wcB

Even a hint at a need for a new tool and I'm in.

[Scott_Conger]

This is what you expand into your hub, lock at that diameter, remove and measure with your micrometer or caliper. THAT is the diameter of the worn hub.

A 3 minute tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDNP25PtBqM

[Allan]

Telescopeing gauges are used to help measure internal diameters. However, damage to a hub may be difficult to measure. If the gauge is expanded into the worn section created by the bearing cup, you then have to be able to withdraw it past the unworn section on which the dust seal sits. depending on the amount of wear you may not be able to cant the gauge enough to get it out past the unworn section. An internal micrometer would make it easier, but they are not so plentiful and are far more expensive.

Allan from down under.

[Art M]

A spri h loaded finger caliper could bring used to measure it accurately.

The suggestion of building up the worn surface probably wouldn't work so well. 60 years ago I was involved with industrial chrome plating bearing mounting surface. I recall the very maximum thickness of the plating is somewhere around .008 inch.

Art Mirtes

[John.Zibell]

I had one hub that was so bad I just replaced it. New hubs are available for wood wheels. http://www.modeltford.com/item/2803.aspx

[TXGOAT2]

It would be best to replace the hub. Short of that, I'd try shimming it with a shim made from a steel soft drink can.

[George House]

I believe that I would conjecture to think it’d be more longer lasting to fashion a shim made from a steel beer can.

[Scott_Conger]

Elements of this thread are exactly why I would hate to see a "tech tips" forum. Beer can shims for worn hubs would percolate to the top and become considered excellent advice

[TXGOAT2]

To repeat: Replacement is the best option.

[Art M]

I haven't seen a steel beer can in a half century. I have seen soup can material successfully used on the tapered section of a rear hub. I was installed in about 1940 and Removed in 2016.

Art Mirtes

[JTT3]

Campbell’s or Progresso?

[mbowen]

Found this between the crankshaft and transmission on a friends ‘22 roadster:

[Arbs]

I'm happy to say that the passenger side is behaving more normal. So far I got the inner race out and it was a bear. The races aren't cracked either. I'll pull the outer this evening.

I checked the new inner race and it doesn't slip into the hub.

Hopefully this hub is in good shape.

Mid extraction:

Time to let my arms rest:

[tdump]

I use this for similar situations.
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-37424-St ... B0002KKTIG
As for the hub, I would use a center punch and put peen marks all along the area the race rest in. Done right and you will have to knock the new race in as a new 1.with the peening and the loctite,should be good as most on the road.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

A spri h loaded finger caliper could bring used to measure it accurately.

The suggestion of building up the worn surface probably wouldn't work so well. 60 years ago I was involved with industrial chrome plating bearing mounting surface. I recall the very maximum thickness of the plating is somewhere around .008 inch.

Art Mirtes

We would chrome plate pretty much the same thickness, or more if needed, then grind the chromed bore to the desired size, leaving no less than .002" final plating thickness when we're done. To just have it plated and use it as-is is not a good move.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Short of that, I'd try shimming it with a shim made from a steel soft drink can.

Please do NOT do that.

[TXGOAT2]

Use discretion. With care, good results can be obtained in some cases. Not all hubs are salvageable.

[Arbs]

The outer passenger side race was harder to get out than the inner race and only because I couldn't get on it with any tools I had. Inspired by Dan Treace's post from 2015, I went to a local swap meet and bought some inexpensive tools. Then I hit the grinder. The end result was this:

Which led to this:

The next step will be to clean up the hub and insert the new races.

I'm still in the market for a replacement hub for the driver's side. If you have one you are willing to part with, please let me know.

[Scott_Conger]

Look up weld-removal of races and you won't be modifying any more tools

glad you're on track

[Craig Leach]

I had a similar situation pop up a little while back when installing bearings in a pare of hubs (not as bad as Dan did ) I found the hubs I was
working on that the outer bearings did not offer the resistance I expected when driving them in. They did not fall in or spin I just thought they
needed to be a firmer fit. I figured I would use Loctite 660 because I have had good success with it on shaft to bearing issues, but thought the
fit was close enough that it would likely displace most of it when installing the bearing. Mack mentioned steaking & Loctite& that got me to
thinking about knurling the hub to get a better fit. I looked up I.D. knurling tools & almost had a heart attach. $200-$300+ so I came up with
something that works for a lot less by modifying a inexpensive straight knurling tool ( (under $25 )it had to be cut & welded to make it a right
angle I.D. knurling tool.(This will only work if you have a lathe or a friend that has one) It's a little tricky to get square but takes little pressure
to make a rough knurl that will reduce the I.D. by .006 most of which will be displaced by the bearing but will give a place to retain the Loctite.
This should be used at your own discretion but if your hub only needs a little help? I would not think this would be a repair for a hub that the
bearing was loose in.
Craig.

[Craig Leach]

More pics

[m_p_dean@yahoo.com]

I used 609 on my outer races, and they are fine. However, mine had some resistance to spinning, and I'm sure my smallest feeler gauge (.002" or maybe .0015") would not have fit in the gap. The fact was that they were not tight.

.010" sounds awfully big for even a good product like 609. Knurling might be a good suggestion.
Maury Dean

[speedytinc]

I use locktite 660. It's a silver paste rated to .020" fill.
You place the race & turn until it locks up. I dont know if it would work with a knurled surface.

[Allan]

There is no difference between a drivers side hub and a passenger side hub. Nor is there ant difference between the left or right hub, so any good hub will do. There are differences in hubs of different ages if that is important to you.

Allan from down under.

[Dave Sullivan]

I am with the 660 Locktite guys. Probably work good with a knurl,or a shim. I've used it a lot, with never a problem.

Dave Sullivan, Bellingham, wa