Re: Ignition Timing Problems.

Johnny Mac · Post by **Johnny Mac** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:57 pm

Hello Everyone. I am hoping that someone here can help me. I have a 1925 Model T Pick-up truck. Recently I got is started after it had been sittting for many years and this involved reconditioning the engine, plus much more. However it has een difficult to start and it appears to be ignition related. Initially I can get the coils to buzz by moving the quadrant a few notches on the first start-up. However if it cuts out or I stop the engine I have to move the advance and retard control level more than half way down the quadrant to get the coils to buzz again. It has an Anderson timer on it and I have set up the ignition as per the Steve Jelfs method. When the timing is advanced the engine will start "knocking" I removed the quadrant control rod and started the engine up and moved the timer with a pry-bar to try and find a "sweet spot". I had to keep advancing the timing to get the coils to buzz. I have checked the timer and all seems ok as is the flapper. There is 6 volts on the firewall insulators for cylinders 2, 3 and 4 and not anything on Number 1, until it is started up and then it has 6 volts. I have tested the ignition boxes and they all have 1.3 amps, including number 1 cylinder. I hope that there is someone on this forum who can help me sort this out? Thank you John

Post by **RajoRacer** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:04 pm

A coil will only "buzz" if & when the flapper grounds out on a segment. Sounds as though you might have a timing issue & coil issues - who set up the coils ?

Johnny Mac · Post by **Johnny Mac** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:18 pm

RajoRacer wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:04 pm
A coil will only "buzz" if & when the flapper grounds out on a segment. Sounds as though you might have a timing issue & coil issues - who set up the coils ?

Hello RajoRacer. I tested the coils with a meter and apart from 1 they all showed 1.3 amps. I replaced the coil which was showing below 1.3 amps. I do understand that I have an ignition issue and I am hoping that someone can help me here. Each segment on the Anderson timer looks in good condition. Could the flapper be the issue, as the problem seems to "move"? Could the segments be out of alignment and causing the problem? I pulled the coil box apart and cleaned all the contacts when I tested them. Thank you for your comments. Sincerely John.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:26 pm

To operate correctly, the coils need to set accurately set not just to amperage draw but also to time to fire, double sparking & a condenser test. You might consider having one of the several fellas (Ron Patterson or Brent Mize, off hand) that test & rebuild coils available to set them up proper - saves alot of tail chasing with the ignition system ! There have been known issues with Anderson flappers & aftermarket cam gear hub thickness - there are 2 different length of flappers to address the cam gear issue also.

Post by **TWrenn** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:49 pm

John FWIW here's my story and experience with the Anderson. When I got my '25 firetruck it had an original Ford roller timer. Ran ok, but not great. So I tried an Anderson. It would NOT fire on #3 piston for all the money on earth. I went thru all the timing crap etc., switched "back and forth" between timers...it wasn't gonna fire on #3 with that dang Anderson. So I went back to the roller and said heck with it and ran it that way til I sold the truck a year later.

If I was gonna keep it, it would be on what I call "Tony's infamous TW timer" that everyone keeps hearing me harp about probly to where they're tired of hearing me! Ha ha. But it's the best!

Maybe try a New Day as it's close to how the TW timer works. And rotsa ruck!

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:15 pm

John,

Hopefully you'll be able to get it sorted via advice from the forum .. however I wonder if it's a good opportunity to call on local assistance?

I've found it can be a good way to learn from and meet similar-minded people. From the forum membership list I see several people who aren't a million miles from you (actually they all look very close when you zoom out the map!

and might be worth sending a message to.

Failing that, then I'd add something to what's already been said about initial fault-finding:

You can swap the coils around to see if the lack of noise follows a particular coil, or stays in the same location. If it follows the coil then that's the likely issue, if it stays in the same location then it's wiring/connections/timer.

This test should allow you to concentrate on the right area of the system. If it's not the coils then as has been mentioned the timer can be at issue, but the primary electrical cct in a T is relatively low-voltage/high current, so poor connections/wiring can also lead to weird effects.

Also you didn't mention how it runs on Mag? This may not assist, but is often useful in providing people further background before they pass on their advice.

Finally, if it turns out be the coils then I'd view that as an opportunity to learn too. They're pretty simple things and while various people do send them away it's really not necessary per se.

Luke.

Johnny Mac · Post by **Johnny Mac** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:28 pm

RajoRacer wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:26 pm
To operate correctly, the coils need to set accurately set not just to amperage draw but also to time to fire, double sparking & a condenser test. You might consider having one of the several fellas (Ron Patterson or Brent Mize, off hand) that test & rebuild coils available to set them up proper - saves alot of tail chasing with the ignition system ! There have been known issues with Anderson flappers & aftermarket cam gear hub thickness - there are 2 different length of flappers to address the cam gear issue also.

Hello Steve
I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to me. It has been frustrating to say the least on something which I thought would be straight forward. I presume that what you mean by double sparking is when the cylinderf iires on each revoution and for the Model T it would be the exhaust stroke. This has been reinvented in modern days on four stroke engines and coil pack ignition and they now call it "wasted spark". I have heard that Ron Patterson is very good at reconditioning coils, so it would be worth a phone call and also Bent Mize. I thought that Anderson Timers and flappers were supposed to be the "best" however I am now getting another view on their stuff. Thank you once again. Sincerely John.

Johnny Mac · Post by **Johnny Mac** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:30 pm

TWrenn wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:49 pm
John FWIW here's my story and experience with the Anderson. When I got my '25 firetruck it had an original Ford roller timer. Ran ok, but not great. So I tried an Anderson. It would NOT fire on #3 piston for all the money on earth. I went thru all the timing crap etc., switched "back and forth" between timers...it wasn't gonna fire on #3 with that dang Anderson. So I went back to the roller and said heck with it and ran it that way til I sold the truck a year later.

If I was gonna keep it, it would be on what I call "Tony's infamous TW timer" that everyone keeps hearing me harp about probly to where they're tired of hearing me! Ha ha. But it's the best!

Maybe try a New Day as it's close to how the TW timer works. And rotsa ruck!

Hello Tim
Wow, Thank you for your comments and I think you might have solved my headache with the ignition system. I will let you know how I get on. Thank you once again. Regards John.

Post by **TWrenn** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:30 am

Very welcome John! Keep all of us posted...you have a very caring group of guys who "got your back" as they say!

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:38 am

If it has not been already stated, your coils don't buzz all the time. Don't worry about moving the spark lever up & down until they do. It's not important. In fact, if a coil did buzz constantly, it would be a problem. After setting the timing, just move the spark lever all the way up, bring the throttle lever 3/4 down and try to start.

Also, right now, don't worry about there being multiple choices for timers. Any timer, in good condition will work fine for right now. There are lots of different postings on this forum for how to set your timing. Start from there. If you still have trouble after that, then think about having coils rebuilt and the condition of your coil box.

Post by **Humblej** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:12 am

John,
If I understand your original post, sometimes when you turn the key on to start the engine there is no coil buzz so you move the spark lever until it buzzes, and is that an indication of a problem.

A coil should buzz only when the engine is in the ignition portion of the power stroke. So, if you shut off the engine and it stops just at one of the cylinders being at the ignition portion of the power cycle and you turn the key on it will buzz. But if when you shut off the engine it stops with no cylinders at the ignition portion of the power cycle, then when you turn on the key it will NOT buzz. And that is how it should be.

Turning the key on and advancing the spark to get a buzz before or during a start is bad practice and may result in damage to the starter bendix or breaking an arm when hand cranking. When starting an engine with the key in the BAT position, the spark lever should always be fully retarded...always, and do not advance the spark until the engine starts running.

Regarding timers, I like the Anderson timer the best only because it never needs cleaning and lubricating, and will last for years, but any timer, when properly maintained, will not have any improved performance over another style or brand of timer. When changing timers always check and set your timing to fire just past TDC.

Johnny Mac · Post by **Johnny Mac** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:28 pm

Hello Everyone
I would like to sincerely thank all of you who took the time to read and answer my request. The knowledge on this Forum is fantastic. I re did the timing again this morning, according to the comments which you people made and the Model T is now running well. My errors included not moving the crankshaft enough after TDC to get it to 15 degrees and the assumption that all the coils had to buzz when the key was turned on. I also thought that the Anderson Timer had to have the rod hole in the vertical position when setting up the timing and it wasn't. This is the first job which I have done on a Model T since the 1960s and overall it was great re-learninng experience. Seasons greeting to all of you and all the best for 2024, This is a fantastic forum!
Regards
John

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:18 am

Great news! Thanks for the update John!