Balancing Water??

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SurfCityGene
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Balancing Water??

Post by SurfCityGene » Mon May 27, 2019 2:56 pm

Got to thinking to other day and wondered why couldn't you simply weight a quantity of water equal to the Balancing Beads and put that inside the tube instead?

Back on the farm we used to put a water solution inside the tractor tires for weight. Seems to me like the water might react the same as the beads to balance the tires? Anyone ever thought of or tried it?
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Dallas Landers
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Dallas Landers » Mon May 27, 2019 3:08 pm

It may work in warm climate but it would be a bumpy ride on cold days. It may destort rims if left in for winter or puncture tubes if driven. Just my thoughts but I have been wrong before.

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perry kete
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by perry kete » Mon May 27, 2019 3:15 pm

Years ago I used to work for a tire company and we installed very large tires on very large earth movers and strip mine equipment. The tires were so big we used crane trucks to lift them and install them. We would fill them with water for traction but mixed it with a calcium solution to keep them from freezing in the cold Pennsylvania winters. I also installed tractor tires with water for traction and once again would use a calcium solution to keep them from freezing. The biggest problem I could see for a Model T is the added weight. Beads are much lighter.
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SurfCityGene
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by SurfCityGene » Mon May 27, 2019 3:27 pm

Perry, wouldn't 8 ounces of water be the same as 8 ounces of glass or ceramic beads?

I picked up a tube the other day that somebody had put some slime type of stuff inside it. That would not work good for any of the beads and cause the tire to be really out of balance. It was a really good thing we checked and discovered it!

I guess this Iowa boy living in SoCal at the beach has forgot that part of the year everything is froze solid... LOL
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon May 27, 2019 4:00 pm

As a kid working at a gas station on Coney Island Ave. in Brooklyn centuries ago the boss had just got a dynamic balancer. Fairly new technology at the time. I had a tire I just could not balance. After repeated tries the head mechanic came over and said "break it down". There had to be more than a pint of water in there. No Idea how. Must have been assembled that way. Same situation a few weeks later. I broke the tire down on my own and got out at least a cup full of rubber beads of various sizes. It was the inside of the tire that was deteriorating not those things they sell. Both of these tires balanced perfectly after being emptied. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by George Andreasen » Mon May 27, 2019 5:51 pm

Having been a former "tractor restorer", I can tell you for fact that the chloride solution used for weight is responsible for many ruined, rusted rims. A tube leak allows it to attack the steel. The alternative these days is ordinary windshield wiper solution........won't freeze. However, I don't think a liquid will work. On a slow moving tractor, the liquid will stay towards the bottom and add the desired weight.....BUT.....tractors aren't driven at highway speeds.

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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by perry kete » Mon May 27, 2019 6:48 pm

You are correct George the solution did attack and rust out the rims but then again my boss sold rims too! :D
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Joe Voller » Mon May 27, 2019 8:28 pm

Do not use water or any fluid. Try towing a tractor with fluid in the tires a 30-35 Mph. And see how a thousand Lb's of fluid gets to bouncing the hit the brakes and get the tires out of sink of each other. Then have the towing vehicle slam on the brakes. Do Not Try Fluid to balance tires someone may die.

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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Duey_C » Tue May 28, 2019 1:11 am

A rear tire blew on an OT JD B that we were towing home, we stopped at Lake Mary so I could wash the calcium chloride off me.
Twas a rougher ride after that.
Gene, as long as the water will never freeze in the wheels.
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by SurfCityGene » Tue May 28, 2019 3:18 am

You guys are getting crazy with the tractor tires... My real question for people who use balancing beads in their Model T is why wouldn't a liquid of the same weight as the beads work in place of using the beads?
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by d stroud » Tue May 28, 2019 6:49 am

Gene, they have pretty much answered your question, not a good idea. JMHO Dave
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by MWalker » Tue May 28, 2019 7:55 am

Gene -- Those guys are talking about hundreds of pounds of liquid, and you're talking about a few ounces. I haven't tried using liquid, but the glass beads work great. I don't see why liquid wouldn't work the same way. Since you're not getting any help here, why don't you try it and report back to us with your results?


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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Tom Hicks » Tue May 28, 2019 8:02 am

There is a type of slime designed for motorcycle tires that claims to both balance the tire and stop leaks - the best of both worlds! I think it is called Rideon. Seems like it should work in a T tire too if you got the correct amount.

But I like Balance Beads, I know they work!
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by John Codman » Tue May 28, 2019 10:27 am

Balance the tires on a 35-40 mph vehicle? Why?


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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Jeff Hood » Tue May 28, 2019 1:16 pm

John Codman wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:27 am
Balance the tires on a 35-40 mph vehicle? Why?
I spent a lot of years balancing tires. An out of balance tire will really show at a speed of about 25 - 35 mph, and then smooth out some at higher speeds, and then come back at about double the speed, around 65 - 70 mph. Often the worst shaking is at about 30 - 35 mph, right where we want to drive our T's, and right where we drive our moderns in city traffic and at 65 - 70 mph where we drive moderns on the highway.


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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by SurfCityGene » Tue May 28, 2019 9:00 pm

John, maybe you haven't priced new T tires lately... A balanced tire will wear much better and also run much smoother. BTW some Model T's go a bit faster than 25. There's several parts that can affect how well the wheel rotates, Rim, tire, bearings, kingpin wear, and balance. many guys stick on weights or wrap the wire spokes with some solder for balance.

I'll have to check on that Rideon product, Thanks, Tom
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Re: Balancing Water or beads ?

Post by FrankHarris » Wed May 29, 2019 3:09 am

Jon Codman: Because some of us go 70 or more and we used beads
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Hal » Wed May 29, 2019 12:48 pm

Some folks don't read and comprehend before commenting, even after the subject was reiterated. I'm with Mike. Give it a try and let us know. I too, have heard of the sealant/balancer goo for motorcycle tires. I've never used it, but have definitely heard of it.

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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed May 29, 2019 2:43 pm

I put beads in my tubes - have yet to try them. FWIW, a 30 x 3.5 tire calls for 6 ounces of beads ----- that would work out to approx. six fluid ounces of water, slighty less if you added chloride or something similar.
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Dan Hatch » Wed May 29, 2019 3:24 pm

My wife has been tire business for a while. One of her former bosses had a product made by the people that make Kevlar, this product had Kevlar in it. This product was a stop leak for truck tires and of the added benefits was that it would balance the tires too. Did a great job of both, stopping leaks and balancing. I had some put in a T tire with tube that had a slow leak that I could not fine. That stuff sealed the leak and balanced tire. Tire never lost air again. Only problem was in a tubeless tire it ate the rims. Dan


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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by John Codman » Thu May 30, 2019 10:06 am

At 70 (or even 50) I can understand balancing tires, but with the large diameter of model T wheels - even the improved car tires, the rotational speed is quite low. I too have balanced thousands of wheels (I worked in a tire store for 10 years) and from my experience if a tire and wheel has a discernable shake at normal model T speeds, there is a problem with the tire and or wheel. My '27s tires and wheels have never been balanced and there is zero wheel vibration. I mounted all four tires personally, and I'll bet a nickel that there is imbalance in all four. I'll stick to my guns on this one - the stock T just does not go fast enough to need tire balance. I'll bet they were not balanced at the factory.

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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:26 am

I tend to agree with John C here.
The diameter is so much bigger on a T wheel and tire assembly, that a low speed vibration would start around 45-50 as opposed to 30 mph with modern sizes.
If your W/T assembly is true with little to no lateral or radial runout, I see no real need for balancing. If runout is a lot, all the balancing in the world will be ineffective. Runout can be felt at 20 mph up.
Modern tires usually shake noticeably at around 60 mph, depending on tire size (15" was most common with my experiences). After 25+ years of chasing vibrations in NEW vehicles, I usually found runout was the issue and balance was dead on. GY were the most common problem children. And they rarely would cooperate, blaming wheel runout...even after another set of tires from a lot vehicle cured the problem. :evil:

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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by TonyB » Thu May 30, 2019 2:37 pm

Can anyone explain how balancing beads or water helps balance a wheel.
To my simplistic way of thinking anything in the tire will be effected by the centrifugal force when the wheel turns. That same force will move anything loose to the furthest point from the center of rotation. That point may or may not be the place where balances weights should be applied.
How does the loose item balance the wheel?
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu May 30, 2019 6:58 pm

There are some videos on Youtube showing how beads work. Take a look at this one. https://youtu.be/eq263AYgyYg
I suppose you could easily do a similar experiment with a small amount of water instead of beads and see what happens.
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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:28 pm

The best way to understand the "physics" behind bead balancing is to visualize what forces are acting on the beads (water) inside the tube/tire.
When the car is at rest the beads are on the bottom due to gravity. As the tire begins to rotate, centrifugal force and friction of the beads inside the tire/tube wall begin to distribute themselves uniformally when the centrifugal force is greater than the gravitational force. At speed, the beads are one with the tire, and since they have their own mass they move with the tire when you go over a bump. So while there may be a moment of imbalance at this juncture the beads quickly get in balance again. So while just about any non abrasive object could be used there is a trade off in the proper amount of mass needed to balance a given tire based on its size and speed. So water, oil, BB's etc could be used in the proper amounts.

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Re: Balancing Water??

Post by Corey Walker » Fri May 31, 2019 9:58 am

I was at a tire shop for big trucks and saw this display. I was talking to the man behind the counter about it and beads in Model T tires (I’ve never tried them) and he said that NASCAR uses powder to balance their tires.
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