Excessive wear of New Day rotor

[dykker5502]

Hi,
my 1922 Fordor was equipped with a Newday timer and drove very fine with my rebuild and ECCT trimmed coils. That was 2 years ago. Back then the one rearaxle snapped, but with a complex fracture so that it retained the wheel. Actually I thought it was a broken tooth in the rear end.
This summer I took the rearend off the car and found out that it was the axle that whas broken, not a tooth. A new axle was purchased and replaced. The rearend was put back on the car and everything seemed fine and I could proceed to the tour I was planning to.
That tour want OK and back home all was well for a couple of weeks, and then it started to run rough. An investigation showed that the brush in the Newday rotor was toast. All weared down and the timer it self looked like this inside:

OK, maybe the inside of the timer have been somewhat corroded during the 2 years storage (not always under perfect conditions) so I polished the inside with a piece of steelwoll and bought a new rotor.
Some couple of 100 miles and the same happend - actually the picture above is as it looks now, not back then as I took no pictures, but I'm sure you get it.
Here you see the rotor is all weared down but straight:

I know that where some issues with the rotor some years ago not able to hold the brush square, but that does not seem to be the problem here. The brush are weared down nice and square.
What seems to be the problem here?

[RecklessKelly]

Looks like water got trapped in it. You could cut a round piece of plywood and stick a superfine sanding disk on it with a bolt thru in center and put it in a drill to grind it smooth again. Cut a notch in the bottom edge of the timer so water can drain out.

[TXGOAT2]

If the residue is not oily and has a greenish color, it would appear that water has somehow gotten into the timer. Otherwise, one or more coils may have developed a problem. Mechanical alignment or clearance issues can also cause problems. If your engine's crankcase has collected water from condensation, running the engine to operating temperature could generate a lot of water vapor in inside the engine, and some of it could work its way into the timer case and condense there, due to the timer running cooler that the rest of the engine, especially in winter weather. I would check carefully for any evidence of water in the oil and change it if necessary. It would be a good idea to clean up the timer, then run the engine for 15 minutes or so, then stop it and check the timer for any indication of moisture, oil, or some mechanical issue.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

I agree that something is getting in there but, (especially oil or even an oil/water mix), would tend to lube the brush. That might not help your running much but it sure wouldn't cause the brush to wear so quickly. That contact surface on the cover must be pretty rough.

[speedytinc]

Brush clearance to the timer face is in question. Appears too close. Can be from the brush mounted to high from a condition caused by a thicker timing gear hub or a poor thrust situation where the cam can be moving forward. In worst situations the timer will dance while running.
Clean the timer contact surface as suggested. Look for gouged insulator material loss.(to dirty to tell in your pix) Measure the depth of the timer & the height of the brush to confirm proper clearance & test cam for potential cam forward movement.

[Steve Jelf]

Some New Day reproductions are of notoriously poor quality, including the rotor and the cover. I haven't used one of the current reproductions, but they are said to be very good. Maybe yours is one of those earlier reproductions, prone to failure.

1 Your rotor appears to have a brush that is much too short. The simplest cure for that is a new rotor.

2 I've never seen a cover that looked as bad as yours. Has it been lubricated with oil or grease? It's supposed to run dry.

Try this.

The surface should be clean, and as smooth as possible.

[Norman Kling]

The New day does not use oil or grease. These things need to be checked out. the brass plate between the brush and the timing gear cover should be removed and a neoprene seal place in the cover. The timing gear cover should be centered around the camshaft and the cam shaft bearing thrust should keep the gear from moving forward. That timer looks like toast. I would replace it with a new one, but only if the problem is solved first so it won't ruin another timer.
Norm

[John kuehn]

Looks like the New Day hasn’t had a good going over in a while.
Use Steve Jelfs method to reface the timer. Looking through all the dirt and tarnish the timer does look good besides needing a good cleaning and refacing for a smooth and even surface. Find or buy a new brush and you should be OK. If the copper shield is being used take it out.
Make sure the timing gear cover is centered with the camshaft is something you can check too. That’s a must for any type of timer.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The biggest problem I can see is with your rotor. The brush does not extand at all from the holder. Doesn't matter what you do to the cap, the rotor is useless as is. Not sure that the brush is worn down, as you suspect. I think it's just jammed all the way in and stuck there.

[Allan]

Does anyone else substitute the spring behind the brush for a lighter one? We have used the spring from a ballpoint pen t lighten the load on the brush, reducing the wear on the contacts in the housing.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

It may very well be stuck. Moisture in a small, enclosed space where electric sparks and metallic dust are present will result in a corrosive mess.
I have had crud collect in my ND timer, but there has been no corrosion at all and the residue is a fine, dry powder.

[TXGOAT2]

What is the correct length of a new brush?

[Oldav8tor]

That is not an original New Day cap. The little holes in the contacts are round whereas originals are square. It may be one of the inferior knock-offs. The best reproductions are available from Tip-Top timers of Spokane Valley, Washington. They are also sold in a kit (including a new brush) from both Lang's and Snyders. I have had good luck with them, putting many thousands of miles on them without issue.

If you haven't replaced the felt camshaft seal with neoprene you should. Also, remove the brass shield behind the brush if there is one still installed. It isn't needed with a neoprene seal.

[dykker5502]

All,

thank you for your feed back. I obviously did not cleaned it up before putting a new rotor with new brush since it was weared down very quick.

Moisture is obviously the problem here. It was stored in a ventilated barn with fixed (but not concrete) floor so some moist may have been there during the winter. Also, I have noticed "Mayonaise" in the oilfiller neck when adding oil - clearly from condensation on the front of the engine. I do not think I have a cracked block where the coolant seep into the oil, but you never know unless you pull the engibe and inspect with magnaflux or the like. Thats not in the plan right now.
I'm for to change the seal from felt to modern type to make sure neither oil or moist or both enters the timer.

And by the way - it is not an original New Day. They are probably not around here in Denmark and Europe, but it is a newer repro bought 2 or 3 years ago at Snyders via a local representative/dealer here in Denmark. So it should be OK which is also why I was surprised of the wear.

[Allan]

Michael, if there is a letter S on the timer body adjacent to the pull arm, it is an inferior replacement and will wear quickly. They are not much use.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

Running the engine at cold idle or on short trips will cause moisture from combustion to accumulate in the crank case, especially in damp or cold weather. The mayo substance is caused by water condensate in the cooler-running oil filler area mixing with oil and oil mist. I'd clean up the timer and check for water at the crankcase drain plug. A small amount is probably not indicative of an issue. If the oil is clean and there is very little or no water at the drain plug, and no evidence of anti-freeze, I'd take the car out on the road for 30 miles or so to get everything Hot enough to drive the moisture off. If the car falters on the road, wipe the timer out with a clean soft cloth and continue driving. If the oil shows evidence of water mixing after running for an hour or more on the road, I'd change it. If you find clear evidence of antifreeze in the pan, that's another matter. Model T crankcases are not well-ventilated, and moisture and fuel dilution can be problematic in cold weather.

[Norman Kling]

One thing which is hard on a New Day Timer is running on battery, especially 12 volt. Because the contact is made immediately when the brush contacts the segment and it tends to spark at that time which will burn the leading edge of the cover. However, if you run on magneto
, the spark comes when the amps reach the level the coil was set and that point is reached after the rotor passes the edge of the segment.
Norm

[Oldav8tor]

To support what Allen said, Snyder’s did have a bad run of caps and brushes. The brush should look like brass, not copper and the Cap should not have the “S” he mentioned.

[A Whiteman]

I have been considering putting a New Day on my roadster and have found this post helpful and interesting. I am thinking about converting to 12v, so that comment is good to have as well.
Thanks all for your advice, and to Michael for asking the questions .
Oh, and a Happy New Year to you all and may 25 be a good one for you too.