Windshield hinges question

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GrandpaFord
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Windshield hinges question

Post by GrandpaFord » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:59 pm

When I fold my upper windshield half on my 1915 touring car the gap becomes uneven. On close examination, the hinges are the same parts on both sides with the right side outside part stationary and the left side inside part stationary. The are apparently the same hinge used for both sides, one turned 180 degrees. Are the hinges supposed to be different for the two sides? If so, which part is stationary and which part pivots? And where can I get the missing hinge?

Thanks, Neil

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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by CudaMan » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:01 pm

I don't think the left & right sides interchange. Steve Jelf went through some effort to get the correct hinges and glass dimensions for his 1915 runabout, here are some old threads:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1426649058

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1491408220

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1525298257
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)


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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:06 pm

Careful examination of the windshield hinges should show that the four primary pieces are all different. The few pair and several extra pieces I have all say that. Even in the much more common later variation that hinges higher between the frames have this basic variation between the sides. One side, the outer part, attaches to the upper frame, the other side, the outer part attaches to the lower frame. The same is true for the inner half of the hinge, only reversed where it attaches to upper or lower frames. Because of this, between the upper and lower pieces, the forward offset of the upper frame requires the centerline of the mount to be different in relation to the mounting bolts. This in turn makes ALL FOUR pieces have to be different, and not interchangeable.
However, people do try to interchange them. And they try to adapt earlier and later variations to make "almost" correct hinges for their car. 1914, and even some '13 hinges are similar enough to the '15/'16/early '17 hinges that sometimes the pieces get mixed in. The later (so-called "offset") hinge parts also get altered and used for earlier cars.
Although they won't work properly, it is possible to mix some inner and outer off side pieces in. And they will not work right if a great deal of effort to modify completely is not taken. It may well be that this is where your trouble is coming from.
The difference in the offset between the upper and lower hinge halves is only slightly over a quarter of an inch. Easy to miss if you don't know to look for it. But it makes a lot of difference in how well the hinges work.

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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by GrandpaFord » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:13 pm

Thanks Wayne and Cudaman. So I guess I am in the market for a set of windshield hinges for my 1915 touring car.


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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:51 pm

There is a fair chance that some of what you have may be correct, or close enough to work okay. I have what I think is a 1914 hinge. Looks very similar to the '15, except no forward/back offset for the rain to drip in front of the lower glass. Another difference between the '14 and the '15 hinges is the location of the position detents for the straight up '15 versus the angled '14. Two of the later parts are short mounting arms like all the pieces have in the '15/'16/early '17. They can work in the earlier hinges, although there are differences again in the detents. Also some variations where the arm comes away from the hinge disc area. The longer arms can be cut down and drilled to match earlier ones. They can look and work well, however people that know can tell the differences.
I would suggest sorting out what you have first. You may be able to use much of it or slightly modify something to make it work and look right.

Unfortunately, and I really hate to say this, but Martin Vowell's drawings of the '15 to '22 windshield hinges are not correct. So do not use them to sort out what you have.

Also, I can post pictures onto the forum IF they are on my computer. But ever since my old camera died and I had to get a new one? I have a great deal of trouble getting photos from my camera onto the computer, and she who used to help me basically no longer can. So I cannot likely help with pictures.

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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by GrandpaFord » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:11 pm

IMG_1066.jpg
This is the right side hinge. Notice how the arms are tangent to the outside diameter of the hinge.
IMG_1067.jpg
This is the left side hinge. Notice that the arms are NOT tangent to the outside diameter of the hinge.

Pay no attention to the junk in my garage.

I am not sure which is correct. This is a car built up out of parts. I don't really care if it is exactly 1915 hinges. They could have been changed during the year anyway. The top and bottom windscreens are the same width so there is no offset side to side in the hinges. Also the windscreens stack on top of each other so there is no offset fore and aft.

I would very much like to buy a new left or a new right hinge to match the other side. Please let me know if you have one that you are willing to sell.

Thanks, Neil

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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:58 pm

You have some mis-match parts there...
I can't, but someone will show you the right combination.


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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:43 am

Someone mixed the pieces up! As you point out, both sides line up (both sides are wrong!) from the lower to upper frames. They MUST NOT line up! The upper frame NEEDS to be forward of the lower frame by a bit over a quarter inch. They are supposed to line up sideways, but not from the front to back of the car. There are four different main hinge pieces. They correctly assemble ONLY ONE WAY! One piece is the right upper, only. One piece is the left upper only. another the right lower, only, the last the left lower, only. Yours appear to be assembled with both uppers on one side, and both lowers on the other side.
I can't tell for sure from the photos, but it looks like you have the proper '15ish parts. Probably, a simple take apart and assemble in the right positions is all you need. As far as the hinges go. You may need to have new glass cut to make it right because the glass edges are supposed to overlap slightly to allow rain to run down the front of the upper glass onto the front of the lower glass. It is likely the glass was cut short so that the frame could be raised straight up with the glass lined up instead of upper forward of the lower. (A common incorrect correction to an incorrect assembly!)

If I have everything rotated correctly in my head? It appears your right hinge is both upper pieces, while your left hinge is both lower pieces.
I recently restored the hinges for my '15 runabout project. I started with a couple original hinges in terrible condition, loose, not assembled on any frame, and had to sort it all out as well as repair some badly damaged pieces. Believe me, there is only ONE right way for those to be assembled.

What I can't tell for certain from your photos, is that you could have one '14 style hinge. If so, it would be your right hinge. However, looking at the detent dimples, they do NOT look like the '14 hinges I have. That, and given that you appear to have all the proper offsets (just in the wrong places), I would speculate that someone in the past had it all apart, and put it together incorrectly. The assembly is somewhat counter-intuitive. A lot of people seem to need to assemble the pieces wrong.

Good luck! I think you have the hinges you need.

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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by GrandpaFord » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:39 am

So, as Wayne said, it turned out that I had all the right parts, just in the wrong places. Thank you Wayne. Chalk this up to "learn something new every day" or maybe learn something new constantly. There was no grease in the hinges and no cotter keys. Now, with grease, the hinge folds nicely, without the nuts coming loose.

As near as I can figure out, the car was assembled just after World War II and I don't think the internet was working at that time so the person or persons who assembled it did not have the advantage of assistance from the MTFCA Forum. They did a lot of other things wrong too that I have been correcting over the years. Still more to go.

Neil

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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by KWTownsend » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:56 am

1914 hinges have double dimples.


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Re: Windshield hinges question

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:02 pm

You are quite welcome Neil K! When I was working on my low budget restoration and putting together the hinges, I had two and a half real '15ish hinges, two nice later style hinges, and a bunch of loose extra later pieces. I also had a pair of '14 style hinges, in fairly nice mostly original condition. The '15 style parts I had came from a few different sources over the many years I collected parts, and the most "complete" hinge of the pieces had been in a wreck, was badly twisted and bent (yeah, BOTH), very rusty, pitted, and cracked across one of the bends. So, of course, I felt the need to restore it. They, including the really bad one, are not candidates for a Stynoski level car, But they look darn nice now! I can hardly wait to see them on my car!

While going through all that last year, I spent a couple hours sorting it all out. I first had to determine that the '14 style pair I had found for cheap at a swap meet years ago were in fact NOT suitable for a '15. The detents do not hold the windshield straight up, and they lack the offset required for the rain dripping feature. I knew well the obvious difference of the longer arm for the later style (so-called "offset" hinge that holds the later upper frame a bit higher than the '15 style does). But I had to sort out other minor differences. Determine the viability of modifying later hinges option (very definitely can be done, but anyone that knows the differences would be able to spot that). I determined I had all the necessary pieces for correct '15 style hinges and wanted that, so I restored the nasty ones.

As I said, I spent a couple hours sorting all this out. I am quite pleased that someone besides me can benefit from my effort. From what I can see of your car in those two photos, it looks very nice!


Keith T, That is one description. To my simpleminded eye, they just have a lot more dimples! That and the fact the '14 (as well as the '13) windshield angles back on the lower frame before the upper frame heads straight up, and the hinge dimples do not hold the upper and lower frame in a straight plane, however do hold them in (a bent) line front to back, all make the '14 hinges and main pieces not suitable for a '15 to early '17.

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