Disc brakes

[Will]

Thinking into the future a little, While I'm waiting on a Layne KC Warford transmission to become available I thought it might be a good idea to upgrade the braking on the 1919 T with disc brakes due to the increase speeds I will be going. I have at the moment the reproduction AC brakes. They stop ok but I just bet they will not have the stopping power of the more modern disc brakes. Dose anyone have any experience installing/ using the modern disc brakes and what brand are you using? I should add that I do have safety hubs if that makes any difference. Thank you.

[babychadwick]

If you can lock up your wheels with your current brakes about the only advantage disc brakes would give you is reducing brake fade from excessive braking. At the same time they look horrible, but that's my opinion.

They may have the advantage of locking up the wheels faster, of course that can put excessive pressure on spokes, valve stems, gearing ect.

The best "improved" braking i have seen was adding hydraulic metropolitan brakes to the front wheels and disguised hydraulics inside a large drum rear end. Of course these were 2 different cars.

Remember, if the goal is to stop the wheels from spinning and you already can do that what more will you accomplish?

[WillyR]

with my 24 as a daily driver, I may consider getting discs, -BUT- my rocky mountains do seem more than adequate....

I'm told I'll never wear out the drums, but I'm not so sure...

I'll be building another car, and we shall see what brakes, if any I have on the future car.

cost is similar on the rocky vs discs, so if purchasing new I would likely try the discs..

never had the AC brakes

[dobro1956]

I've had original AC brakes and repro Rockies. Both are external contracting. Pros: both look more period correct, (that's about it). Cons: ACs will fade quickly as they heat up. Repro Rockies do not fade as bad but "WILL NOT HOLD IN REVERSE" I used caps on purpose, Not holding in reverse caused us to wreck our 27 touring and flip it upside down. They are engineered wrong and not made like original Rockies. Any brand of outside contracting brakes will fade when wet. So getting caught in a good rain or driving thru puddles can make them ineffective. I could get by with our repro Rockies by lightly riding the brake when it was raining or going thru mud holes to help keep them dry, but it was not really a good practice to do. And we still ended upside down in a ditch because of the not holding in reverse thing.

Now as to the disc brakes. (Sure Stop Disc Brakes) Cons: They do not look real good. but if you paint everything black except the rotor braking surface they tend to not be as noticeable. If you have 26-27 wire wheels they also are hidden just a little better behind the spokes. Pros: Better braking by far, not even close to the external type of brakes. They hold our 27 touring very well, in reverse on very steep hills. as long as the tires do not slide because of the limited patch of rubber touching the ground, no issues. They also work when wet. I have tried them when crossing some of the creeks we cross when out camping with the T. Even totally submerged under water, they still work . Very easy install. Very good instructions, If you are going to drive your car much, I think they are the best safety choice you can make on your car. I suggest to get the flexible brake lines that attack to the caliper. They make bleeding the brakes a lot easier. I also made a steel plate the same thickness as the rotor to go between the brake pads. It has two small holes in it to wire it in place while bleeding the brakes. The plates and flexible hoses makes it where the caliper can hang down, placing the bleeder screw on top of the caliper allowing the air to bleed out easier. In my opinion, I would not consider driving our T anymore, without the disc brakes, because we drive it a lot. We also have a KC Warford. The higher speeds just make having the best stopping ability possible a no-brainer. Have fun, and "ALWAYS", be safe .... Its no fun being upside down in a ditch ................

[bill_severn]

Will,

I've got disc brakes on my 1916 Touring car and I love them.

Bill

[TXGOAT2]

If you really want a T to stop, you need front brakes. Front brakes and double-acting shocks would make an enormous improvement. Shocks aren't too difficult to adapt, and would help with braking, but front brakes would be a challenge, and the T front axle design is not really adequate for hard braking. You could reinforce the radius rods, but it would be best to go with a split wishbone arrangement to keep stresses off the oil pan and engine mounts. Ford addressed the braking issue with the advent of the Model A, which is a beefed-up Model T. It required a substantial rework of the entire chassis to properly deal with 40 HP and 4 wheel brakes.

[Norman Kling]

With the transmission brake or with using the compression of the engine for braking you will have good brakes unless you break the driveshaft or any part in the differential or axle. In that case you will be in free wheeling. It is always good to have the parking brake adjusted enough to stop the car in emergency. The disc brake will slide the wheels and also apply equal pressure to each wheel. But it is ugly. The Rocky Mountain brake from Temecula Ca is a good way to go and although it won't stop in reverse, usually you are not going very fast in reverse so unless you are in free wheeling it not really a problem and the transmission brake is adequate to stop in reverse. Only a problem if you are going down a steep hill. Flat land or downhill is the only place the T goes faster than about 40 mph. It will go a bit faster with a lot of speed equipment. My preference is the Rocky Mountain brakes. Even these I would not bother with if I were going to be doing most of my driving in Kansas or other flat area.
Norm

[1925 Touring]

I put a set of wilwood disc brakes, like what can be bought from the vendors, on my 22 touring. I have probably had them on about a month and a half and I've put about a thousand miles on them already. Personally, have nothing but good things to say about them. They came with all of the spacers, brackets, and instructions. It was pretty much a plug and play system. It's not invasive to the car, and can be removed at any time. They work forwards and backwards, when wet, hot, or cold, and even when they have a good layer of dirt on.
I guess it depends on your liking, and if you drive your car a lot, and what type of enviornment you're in.

Yes they do look a little out of place, but in my mind it's a question of having good breaks, or being period correct and dead. We aren't around period correct vehicles on the road today...

They've already saved my butt once, 2 days after I hooked them up...

[Gracie'sDad]

I too have Sure Stop Disk brakes on my '23 Touring. I wouldn't drive a model T with out them. Over the past 8 years of use I have avoided countless situations that could have ended differently with the standard braking system. I'm a below average mechanic but was able do the installation by following the very good instructions step by step. Yes they are noticeable, but ugly? I don't agree when you consider the contribution they make to the drivability of the Model T. I did paint over the "WILWOOD" logos on the calipers to make them less conspicuous.

[dobro1956]

Norman, and others who think the repro Rockies not holding in reverse is not a big issue and you will have time to react, have probably never been in that situation. Now I will say we have a KC Warford trans. It was part of the problem, but not all.
We were climbing a average hill on blacktop. Nothing really very steep. I was in Warford overdrive and was shifting to Warford 2. I missed the shift and was stuck in the cross over from 3 to 2 for just a second maybe 2 seconds. But it was enough to stall out and start to roll back. So I was in a true freewheeling neutral. Now I have many years and many miles in a T. I always thought I could grab the emergency brake handle and stop the car rolling back with the large drum 26-27 style lined drums. I even practiced it a few times and felt confident I could safely stop the car in the event of rolling back. But the 2 or 3 seconds I wasted messing with the gear shift and only one hand on the steering wheel allowed the car to roll back and as T's do in reverse the wheels turned violently hard left causing the car to U-turn backwards and off the side of the road, and then slide sideways about 30 foot till we reached the bottom of the slope causing the tires to dig in and flip the car over. We were lucky and no serious injuries. There were 2 more Model T's behind us. Their owners helped us, and stayed with us till the State Trooper and wrecker arrived. While waiting I asked the other T owners to think about how long it was from the time I stalled out till we were upside down in the ditch. After thinking awhile one said 7 seconds, the other said 9 seconds and I said 8 seconds. But in reality the first 3 seconds sealed the fate of the event. Yes, if I had grabbed the emergency brake handle I may have stopped the whole event from ever happening. But after that first 3 seconds, there was nothing I could do. Even if I was younger and still in my 20s, I probably could not react fast enough. So unless you have " cat like" reflexes, do not count on the emergency brakes saving you. Sometimes "maybe", most of the times "not".

[Will]

Donnie, Your story is the reason I think I'm going to go ahead with the juice brakes. I'm a big fan of safety and reliability. I like the originality make up of the model T but as mentioned earlier its not 1919 and these cars have to compete with modern traffic to a point. Here in Florida 90% of are roads are straight and level and 4 lanes, I may be living in Pa this time next year where the roads are hilly and definitely not straight and only two lanes. About ten years ago I added the AC brakes just for that reason for more stopping power and yes they have saved my bacon more than a few times. So now with the addition of a KC Warford transmission with the true neutral I feel that the juice brakes not only make sense but with the future modifications of the transmission it screams a mandatory safety modification to the stopping power of the car. As you said, 3 seconds isn't time enough to make a life saving decision. Thank you everyone for your input.

[Scott_Conger]

FWIW - as a 59 year resident of Florida who has since escaped, 4 lane roads as a majority in Florida is a perspective simply of where one resides. As someone who has toured their "T" extensively in Florida, I can state with certainty that the majority of roads in the state are 2 lane and even some great shell/dirt in Central and Northern Florida. You simply have to plan your trip. Google Maps is your friend.

Notably, I know that St. Petersburg to Daytona Beach, and St. Petersburg to Tallahassee are all possible on surface roads. Not always bucolic, but not 90% 4 lane or Interstate, either. It takes effort, and I'm sure Melbourne is as densely traffic'd as Pinellas County, but I'm certain it can be done.

[jsaylor]

I should add that I do have safety hubs if that makes any difference

I would review the installation pdf before ordering to be sure there are no issues with the safety hubs. Review with the vendor when ordering.

I ended up putting Sure Stops on my 27 Tudor. I was getting too much brake fade with the modern Rockies. I am very satisfied.

[dobro1956]

I believe they work with safety hubs but I would check with Birdhaven to be sure.

[Mike S]

Hey folks, I am new here but I think that I will install the disc brakes. First and foremost, I live in the Smoky Mountain area and almost all the roads have some form of incline or decline. Like I said, since I am new to all of this, from what I have been told that (since I have a Ruckstell axle) should I have to stop on an incline, then the original brakes don't necessarily have enough stopping power, but more importantly, should I lose, for whatever reason, the drive train, I am severely out of luck even with Rocky Mountain Brakes. I know that the purists do not like these, but I really think that I should install these as a safety precaution.

I'm new to driving the car and don't want to get in a situation that I cannot control.

Am I wrong?

[fireheadman]

hoping on this thread.... I was leaning more towards the RMB setup until I started learning more about my Pie Wagon.
Seems my grandfather cobbled many years of parts ranging from 1910 - 1928, so the "all orginal" part is out the window. Most of the changes he made I agree with.

I do prefer the look of being in the correct "era", however I am more concerned with the person in front of me that decides to make a last second lane change or quick brake check or is too busy being intrigued by my Pie Wagon and not paying attention. So I"m starting to lean more towards the Sure/Shure Stop - Wilwood Disc brakes and just blacking them out the best I can.

Will have to take the chance on ripping the spokes loose or out from a quick stop, but definitely not wanting to experience a bad reverse day.

[Loftfield]

Not me but a good friend had disc brakes. Worked wonderfully until he had small hydraulic fluid leak, discs nicely lubricated, no stopping at all. I recognise that the hobby is big enough to accommodate almost everyone, but my question is, if you want to go that fast why don't you get a Corvette?

[babychadwick]

Correct me here but everyone advocating disc brakes in the name of safety is still driving a model T.....

I have logged thousands of miles in the sierras with factory large drum brakes and a warford. Going downhill sometimes is necessary to shut off the car and run it in gear rather than relying on your brakes to do the job.

It is important not to drive beyond the limits of your car.

[Randall strickland]

On all the T's I've installed disks, I left the original brakes in the trans ,because with the hyd. the pedal doesn't move hardly any and if they ever fail I still have the original!

[speedytinc]

Not me but a good friend had disc brakes. Worked wonderfully until he had small hydraulic fluid leak, discs nicely lubricated, no stopping at all. I recognise that the hobby is big enough to accommodate almost everyone, but my question is, if you want to go that fast why don't you get a Corvette?

Worst T accident I saw was when disks brakes failed after a long dirt road. Center door plowed into a roadster. Of course the disks gave the owner license to drive it like a sports car.
Drive your T like it's a T & you wont get yourself in trouble.

Dobro is one of the few cases where disks would have helped. However, I see a lot of driver error involved. Not knowing what this T is capable of, not ready or practiced on the E brake & shifting a warford well after he should have to make the hill.

I can lock the brakes @ will on all my T's without those UGLY disks. (forward or reverse) Its a matter of adjustments & maintenance.
Will the next modification be a pinto motor swap?

[TXGOAT2]

If I needed more braking, I'd add a KC Warford. Besides having a wide selection of gears, including an overdrive, it's claimed they can be shifted easily while underway. A ratio around 6.6:1 is available, which ought to be excellent for mountain descents. There are a lot of good reasons to keep the car's driveline in good order. The large drum stock brakes on my car are very effective for emergency stops. I would expect them to overheat rather quickly on a long steep descent, so I would use them in such a case only if absolutely necessary. Preparations for steep ascents or descents ought to be made BEFORE commencing either one.

[JohnM]

Having been a professional driver for 25 years for one of the top two freight carriers, they categorize accidents as preventable / nonpreventable, regardless of legal fault. A very small percentage are nonpreventable. You avoid accidents by being fully aware of your surroundings, your vehicles limitations and not fully depending on the other drivers for your safety.

"Worried about the driver in front stopping suddenly". Why are you following so close?

I have no problem with people doing whatever they want to their own car. For some, it's easier to modify your car than to modify your habits.

[babychadwick]

Something else to consider....

When starting a T in neutral with an aux transmission without the t tranny brake (pedal operates disc brakes before engaging trans brake) there is nothing to stop the t trans output from spinning. Therefore unless you have a modern transmission with syncros (you are relying on the syncros to stop the transmission spinning) with a perfect T clutch this is no problem. However cold oil, wear, leaving the parking brake on, any number of things can cause the T clutch to drag. The simple solution to avoid wear on your new syncros or original gears is to never take advantage of a real neutral. To me that sound of grinding gears when putting in gear is like nails on a chalkboard and I try to avoid it.

[5 T Guy]

I have 4 cars with disc brakes. I had a 5th car with disc brakes that I sold.. If you drive in traffic disc are much safer. True you can lock up the rear tires with stock brakes, but it requires a lot of force to do that. I have done a lot of tours in the mountains. Some with 8% grades. The disc brakes have never let me down. I have seen rooky mountain brakes smoking and give-up where the disc are sure to stop just like there name.

[Scott_Conger]

There is no doubt that disc brakes stop well. In fact it's a certainty. I've found that "certainty" often breeds carelessness and worse. I cannot count the times, navigating a steep downhill grade in low gear and pumping my brakes, headed down to a "T" in the road or some such thing, and have 1...2...3, maybe more T's fly past me and cut in only to come to a "certain" stop, using up all of my pre-planned space before the obstruction. That's no fun. In fact, it's dangerous.

I used to go to every tour I could, in the false belief that I was "equally yoked" with other "T" owners, driving their cars sensibly and safely. Those days ended at least a half-dozen years ago (or more) and honestly while I bought a large trailer to tour all over the US in in my retirement, I have ZERO interest in touring anymore simply due to the rarity of finding a Model T guy who still drives like it is a Model T.

I'm all for safety - but unfortunately too often it comes paired with callousness or stupidity. In a big tour with 150 cars it only takes one asshat to send you off the road or at least frighten you witless, and that's the end of the "fun". If you have disc brakes, just please don't be that guy.

If you have disc brakes, well then, wonderful. You are safe. Please just remember that there are 3-4 guys left who still don't, and are still driving plain old Model T's (those luddites!). Just remember that while you may be able to stop on any hill, from any speed, at any time, for absolutely no discernable reason to anyone else on the planet, there are others around you who cannot. I won't be one of them, perpetually in the way with my original "T", however, as my "T"s are pretty much retired from touring along with me.

Finally, if you just bought a "T" and are installing disc brakes "to be safe", trust me...you're not safe. These things were built well before the time your safety and well-being was all but guaranteed by Big Brother, and there are a hundred ways these things can hurt you - often badly - and you're going to find out at least a few of them soon enough...disc brakes or not.

[love2T's]

BRAVO Scott! Well said! Seems guys buy a T for what..status? Bragging rights? Something unique? Yet they want to turn them into something that drives nothing like a MODEL T! If ya don't like a T for what it is...buy a more modern car. Like a 50's-80's model. Nuff said.

[dobro1956]

Scott, I agree about people driving faster than the car should allow. I've seen it too many times on tour. So on most of the tours we do, I try to be the last car. or trust the guy behind me. . I know how to navigate the routes, and pick up stragglers or help whoever needs help.

As to adding a Warford to give you more gearing and engine braking, Thats OK till you miss a shift, the trans gets kicked into neutral, Or ??? When that Warford (or any other auxiliary trans) goes into neutral there's not a thing you can do but "ride it out" Your engine braking and Ford large drum transmission brake is useless. If you happen to have a 26-27 Large drum rear end with good internal lined brake shoes, it may save you butt. But they will fade extremely fast. So on a steep grade they will be useless in seconds, (Yes seconds). Repro Rockies will work in a Warford neutral situation going forward. But will still bite you in the butt in reverse. There is no perfect brake setup to make a T "bulletproof safe" The driver and totally understanding his brake set ups limitations is the best prevention. We drive our car thousands of miles per year. Disc brakes are not perfect. With a total hydraulic failure, I will still have my large drum transmission brake. It is set to come into action if the hydraulics fail. It is brand new, was worn in about 100 miles before we installed the discs and then we re-adjusted it. It will never wear out, as it is never in use till a hydraulic failure. So in my opinion the only main issue is the little patches of rubber touching the ground. Its about the size of two packs of cigarettes. So I must always drive and brake with that in mind.

Mike S. I do not believe you are wrong at all. I have driven in the Smokey Mountains. In my opinion a stock transmission brake is barely adequate. That is why auxiliary brakes were a very popular addition back in the day. Other than a hydraulic leak, the only major thing to cause the brakes to fail is a broken axle. If the axle breaks and tears the hydraulic line off then you will have no brakes at all. But then the axle housing may be digging into the ground for a little help. I will still say "in my opinion" the safest braking setup you can have is the Sure Stop Disc Brakes and a very good driving attitude and remembering these cars are about 100 years old or older.

We have just added a new level to our braking problem. Since we camp with our T a lot, we are now pulling a 1929 Zagelmeyer tent trailer fully loaded with camp gear in the trailer and the car. Initial test drives show the disc brakes handle every thing OK on dry pavement and fairly level gravel roads. But not steep gravel roads like we have near us. So we are going to add electric brakes to the trailer. The disc brake master cylinder comes already set up to handle taillights, brake lights , and electric brakes. Will just need to add the electric brake wire. A friend already has electric brakes on his camp trailer he uses for vintage Motor Camping. The electric brakes gives us another two patches of rubber on the ground. And with the trailer we are always going slower than usual.

[Allan]

Bravo Scott. A model T should be driven with cognisance of its limitations. An old timer once told me to drive as though you have no brakes. It is a challenge I take up on occasion, just to see if I can do so.
It involves:
Driving at speeds commensurate with a model T.
Watching what the vehicle three cars in front of you is doing, not the ass of the one just ahead.
Leaving as adequate a gap from the car in front as you can, remembering you have no brakes. Someone pinches that gap! Make anew one.
Planning stops well ahead.
Using the throttle to slow the car and using the engine to help with braking. Slowing enough to use bottom gear also helps. You can even use reverse gear to make the final full stop.
Watch the traffic lights and plan on stopping, rather than hoping you may not have to.
Stay as safe as you can.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

It's normally possible to put a non-synchronized gearbox or 2-speed axle back into gear, while the vehicle is moving, without grinding gears. You have to use the throttle to match the speed of the gears you want to engage to one another. This used to be a common driving skill. You can't do this if you want to select a forward gear while rolling backward, or vice-versa.
In the case of the Model T, is is very important NEVER to allow the car to move backward at anything but a very low speed. It's a good idea to avoid backing up any time it is practical to do so. Backing up reverses the caster and radically changes the weight distribution of the car, which upsets the steering response. The driver's visibility is often limited, too. Moving backward safely in any front-engined car at any significant speed requires skill, and the Model T especially so.

[TXGOAT2]

If you drive any vehicle in such a way that other drivers must make way for you, you are going to be in a collision sooner than later.

[babychadwick]

It's normally possible to put a non-synchronized gearbox or 2-speed axle back into gear, while the vehicle is moving, without grinding gears. You have to use the throttle to match the speed of the gears you want to engage to one another. This used to be a common driving skill.

This is very true, I was referring to when you at a stop or near stop that you need to stop the trans/ujoint from rotating to match the non rotating wheels.

However, if when driving and it might drop into neutral and you unsuspecting/automatically hit your brake without the clutch as the T starts to speed up. We'll now you killed the engine and now have to restart in a free wheeling state to bring the rpms up to get back in gear to use your T trans brake. Aren't Ts so much fun.

[TXGOAT2]

A dragging clutch complicates shifting any sliding gear unit. With a T, correct engine oil, gearbox oil, and proper adjustments will help. No matter what you are driving, you have to stay within the design limits of the vehicle. *

*.... And "smart cars" are no such thing.

[TXGOAT2]

I used to have a 1998 Chevrolet 2500 HD with 5 speed manual. It had a 454 engine, 4.10 axle, and a deep low and reverse.
If you backed up and shifted to neutral, you had to wait about 5 seconds to shift into low or the gears would grind. This was due to the very thin oil in the transmission and a large clutch disc that would take a few second to spin down to a stop. The cure was to leave the transmission in reverse until the vehicle was completely stopped, then shift gears. Stopping the vehicle in gear before moving to neutral and either low or reverse would positively bring the clutch disc to a stop and eliminate any gear grinding.

[TXGOAT2]

With a T, a low idle speed will help with braking and with shifting sliding gear auxiliaries.

[Rich P. Bingham]

. . . the main issue is the little patches of rubber touching the ground. Its about the size of two packs of cigarettes . . .

This is the most important fact of life regarding Model Ts and braking. Any Model T in good repair and properly adjusted, is capable of locking up the rear wheels with the transmission brake.

Now what ??

[TXGOAT2]

I'd definitely want to retain the Ford transmission brake on a car with an auxiliary gearbox for the reason pointed out by Baby Chadwick.

[Craig Leach]

Early in my ongoing education of the care & feeding of the beloved Model T while some of us where discussing auxiliary brakes a gentleman
of many of life's experience's interjected saying that the problem we where having with brakes was we where trying to stop the T with them.
On questioning him about this statement he explained in great detail the method of using the engine to do most all of the speed control when
driving a model T, both accelerating & decelerating. It took much practice to break myself from driving a T the same way I drive a modern car.
That said you do need brakes! Auxiliary brakes weather externally contracting, internally expanding or disc are a great addition to any T for
safety & required if you install any kind of auxiliary gearing.
With hydraulic brakes & Aux. gearing ( with no syncro's ) stopping the gears from turning to engage a gear @ a stop is a issue if the T brake is
adjusted to not work @ the expected peddle travel. Using reverse will solve this as it will turn everything backwards then when you let off of
reverse things start turning forward again at that point you should be able to engage the Aux. gearing.
Reverse is also handy to engage a Aux. trans that is out of gear and you are rolling backwards & your RM brakes will only make your life flash
before your eyes.
Internal expanding replaced external contracting & disc replaced the internal expanding for reasons of safety this is just a fact. Disc break
performance is far superior when it comes to wet service & heat fade. So with all other conditions being pretty much equal ( cost wise )
making the decision to install a set of Aux. brakes ( considering the T doesn't already have them ) is only how original do you want the T to be
& if discs are a nonstarter go with what ever you feel OK with & drive accordingly.
I remember Tony Bowker stating @ the start if a speedster run "We all can lockup the rear tires just remember locking the rear tires up will not necessarily stop the car".
Craig.

[Allan]

"due to the increase [sic] speeds I will be going.' There-in lies the root of this discussion. The want, not the need, for speed creates consequences. What will you do with the travel time you might save? At my age, taking some time to get things done is how I like it, including driving my T.

Allan from down under.

[babychadwick]

Allen,
I hope you plan on either doing something about your steering. It can be exciting in a bad way employing stock steering at higher speeds. Many opt for an actual steering box that will prevent feedback.