Wood Plans - Copyrighting?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I really didn't want to 'pollute' some of the existing threads regarding these Copyrights, so I started a new thread. For those in the know, exactly 'what' is the Copyright actually covering, -or protecting?

Where my confusion stems from in this is that as I understand it, Mel & Leon used existing shapes of Wood that Ford Mtr. Company and their engineers fabricated, and these guys evidently copied the existing dimensions and put them on paper. The design, nor the dimensions were Leon's or Mel's to begin with, were they? Furthermore, if Mel copyrighted 1915-1920 Touring plans, -and Leon copyrighted his 1915-1920 Touring plans, how is one not a conflict of the other person drawing?

To break this down even further, If I buy a copyrighted Book and exchange the place of Page 3 and swap it with Pahe 10's location, I cannot call it my own and place a copyright on it, can I? The same thing applies with me making a drawing of a Wheel that I pulled off of a new Ford pickup and copyrighting my drawing. Now if it is my own design or my own artwork that received no inspiration from an existing wheel, then maybe I can. In other words, if I draw a picture of a Ford F150 Wheel and list the dimensions, how can I copyright that? So full circle, exactly what is the Copyright protecting?

[TRDxB2]

As you are pointing out the major issue regarding copyrighting is to prove the origin of the work. as one's own at some point in time as well. Even though Copyrights are immediately bestowed upon a creator as soon as the work is placed in some tangible, transmissible form (such as in a book or online). They need to be registered copyright with the U.S. Library of Congress (same idea as a patent). There are other means to "date" the origin of the work as well, but in the end challenging copyright infringement only benefits lawyers.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

The same thing applies with me making a drawing of a Wheel that I pulled off of a new Ford pickup and copyrighting my drawing. Now if it is my own design or my own artwork that received no inspiration from an existing wheel, then maybe I can. In other words, if I draw a picture of a Ford F150 Wheel and list the dimensions, how can I copyright that? So full circle, exactly what is the Copyright protecting?

Brent,

I think some of your hypotheticals confuse copyrights with design patents and utility patents. Not that this answers your initial question, however...

I am fascinated with your initial assertion that none of this is/was a novel, original creation of the authors to begin with. Maybe think of it like this... let's say an artist copyrighted their painting of Mount Everest. They didn't invent Mt. Everest, nor do they have claim to it, nor can they prevent anyone else from painting it. But they can prevent the use of the image THEY painted. It's not like the wood plans are just scanned images of Ford blueprints that are simply rubber stamped with Mel's & Leon's names & logos. They presumably drew these plans and perhaps added revisions or construction notes not originally in the Ford prints. It was their "Mt. Everest painting", so to speak.

[A Whiteman]

Hi Brent, its a fair question that you are asking, and a good summary from Jerry.

It is the drawings that are copyrighted - you can't copy the drawings done by these gents, which in some ways has nothing to do with the subject of the drawings.

They are not claiming control over the original parts design (the subject), rather just their plans they drew. This mechanism is meant to protect all the work that someone puts in to their drawing/ art in preparing the plans for use. Without their hard work you would need to dismantle and copy an existing body to rebuild yours.

[Scott_Conger]

Original "art" is copyrighted automatically after it becomes a permanent document (drawn/printed)

However, it is legally unenforceable unless and until, registered in the Library of Congress. You can put the Copyright logo on an original blueprint, but if you find that someone 10 years later infringed on it, you cannot take to Federal Court until you DO register it and then just try to win in court proving that you REALLY made the original prior to the infringement! Copyrights, like Patents are things that need to get done NOW, with plenty of documentation of when it was created or when it became an original idea, and the period documents associated with the original art/idea are as important as the idea itself. Been there, done that.

All of which makes this whole Miller/Parker copyright issue a bunch of grade "A" pure baloney. Neither one of them ever sold an ORIGINAL drawing that had either a watermark, a seal, or a stamp. Every single one was an unmarked, unstamped, unverifiable document that even though it originated from the author...every SINGLE one was a flimsy XEROX copy, so exactly WHO is selling an "original" or who is selling a "copy"? I purchased, from the owner of an ORIGINAL set of plans, an ORIGINAL set. However, because of the form it came in, you cannot tell that ORIGINAL from a copy, because the ORIGINAL is, in fact, a cheap unmarked unstamped COPY. A simple hand stamp, a color signature, or embossing stamp would have protected that original for a lifetime but no such care or effort was expended. ORIGINALS were always cheap Xerox copies and never identified in any way as being authentic originals.

Brent, All of the above, of course does not answer a single one of your questions, but I submit that the the premise of the original questions (and every Forum Thread about this topic) is totally without merit in the first place. Remember, It was never a question as to buying/selling/trading these plans when these two guys were alive but somehow their disconnected and uninterested heirs are somehow going to slice through the hobby with a pack of lawyers and decimate our ranks is just silly. Silly to the point where valid owners of original drawings are terrified to pass them on to new owners - a fear that no Used Book Store owner has any thoughts about... because it's ABSOLUTELY LEGAL TO DO SO. This is not advocating ignoring anyone's Copyright...just that the worry about reselling plans is simply a waste of time and worse, deprives a legitimate buyer from the information that may be critical to a restoration's success.

Finally, with respect to Leon Parker's plans, his family sold those drawings at auction. So, did they sell ORIGINALs or COPIES? They couldn't possibly know, nor could the purchaser, nor can anyone else who subsequently buys them or copies of them...they just are not and never were, identified as originals. I remember when they were sold and disappeared from the hobby...people were horrified! "It's a disaster for the hobby!" Presumably because they would not be able to purchase COPIES of those drawings...where was the panic or shame, then?

And I'll reiterate: I'm not advocating the copying of Copyrighted goods, I am simply pointing out that neither the author nor the purchaser could ever tell what was original and what was a secondary market copy. Ever.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Brent,

I think some of your hypotheticals confuse copyrights with design patents and utility patents. Not that this answers your initial question, however...

I am fascinated with your initial assertion that none of this is/was a novel, original creation of the authors to begin with. Maybe think of it like this... let's say an artist copyrighted their painting of Mount Everest. They didn't invent Mt. Everest, nor do they have claim to it, nor can they prevent anyone else from painting it. But they can prevent the use of the image THEY painted. It's not like the wood plans are just scanned images of Ford blueprints that are simply rubber stamped with Mel's & Leon's names & logos. They presumably drew these plans and perhaps added revisions or construction notes not originally in the Ford prints. It was their "Mt. Everest painting", so to speak.

Jerry, your response about hypotheticals is valid, however your point about Mount Everest creates an interesting twist that I had not considered. When the Artist draws a rendering of Mt. Everest, likely the proportions will not be 100% exact to the mountain they are modeling, ...nor will be the vegetation be exact shape, size, & location on the drawing as it is in the real, -or will the colors be exact between the Mountain and the Drawing. At that point we both agree that it is not an accurate rendition and will be varied from being an exact copy of Mt. Everest. If I am understanding your point, in essence the copyright really would only pertain to the notes or revisions that were added by them. With regard to the drawing itself, if Mel or Leon drew a line in the shape of a box that was 4" wide by 8" long, ....and I drew the same size box however added a 3rd dimension (4"x8"x2"), then have I infringed on anyone's Copyrights?

Original "art" is copyrighted automatically after it becomes a permanent document (drawn/printed)

However, it is legally unenforceable unless and until, registered in the Library of Congress. You can put the Copyright logo on an original blueprint, but if you find that someone 10 years later infringed on it, you cannot take to Federal Court until you DO register it and then just try to win in court proving that you REALLY made the original prior to the infringement! Copyrights, like Patents are things that need to get done NOW, with plenty of documentation of when it was created or when it became an original idea, and the period documents associated with the original art/idea are as important as the idea itself. Been there, done that.

All of which makes this whole Miller/Parker copyright issue a bunch of grade "A" pure baloney. Neither one of them ever sold an ORIGINAL drawing that had either a watermark, a seal, or a stamp. Every single one was an unmarked, unstamped, unverifiable document that even though it originated from the author...every SINGLE one was a flimsy XEROX copy, so exactly WHO is selling an "original" or who is selling a "copy"? I purchased, from the owner of an ORIGINAL set of plans, an ORIGINAL set. However, because of the form it came in, you cannot tell that ORIGINAL from a copy, because the ORIGINAL is, in fact, a cheap unmarked unstamped COPY.

Brent, All of the above, of course does not answer a single one of your questions, but I submit that the the premise of the original questions (and every Forum Thread about this topic) is totally without merit in the first place. Remember, It was never a question as to buying/selling/trading these plans when these two guys were alive but somehow their disconnected and uninterested heirs are somehow going to slice through the hobby with a pack of lawyers and decimate our ranks is just silly. Silly to the point where valid owners of original drawings are terrified to pass them on to new owners - a fear that no Used Book Store owner has any thoughts about... because it's ABSOLUTELY LEGAL TO DO SO.

Finally, with respect to Leon Parker's plans, his family sold those drawings at auction. So, did they sell ORIGINALs or COPIES? They couldn't possibly know, nor could the purchaser, nor can anyone else who subsequently buys them or copies of them...they just are not and never were, identified as originals. I remember when they were sold and disappeared from the hobby...people were horrified! "It's a disaster for the hobby!" Presumably because they would not be able to purchase COPIES of those drawings...where was the panic or shame, then?

I'm not advocating the copying of Copyrighted goods, I am simply pointing out that neither the author nor the purchaser could ever tell what was original and what was a secondary market copy. Ever.

You stated what I suspected Scott. We are about to install a CNC Router to my shop for use in several areas including our Wood Shop. Digitizing prints or drawing is not just simple copying a 2D drawing into SolidWorks or Fusion 360. So, once we have an item digitized and modeled where the item is now 3 dimensional, have we really plagiarized someone else's work? To Jerry's point, if Ford Mtr. Co. patented their Body Wood infrastructure in 1925 for a 1925 Model-T, then what Patents or Copyrights still exist for a Ford Mtr. Co. drawing of a 100 year old patented item? And, ...if I take the time to provide drawings that I entered into a modeling software, exactly what am I going to be able to copyright?

Thanks everyone!!

[big2bird]

It is my understanding,

Copyrights before 1978 expire in 95 years.

I am quite sure there are many specific rules. Mel's copyright expires in 39 years.

[Scott_Conger]

Generally speaking, works published before 1923: are in the public domain.
Works from 1923-1977: copyright protection has varied terms, often involving initial 28-year terms with optional renewal for another 28
Works created after Jan 1, 1978: copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years

Unfortunately because of both Mel's and Leon's publication methodology ie: No watermark, no archival paper, no signature, no colored stamp, no embossing, and simply cranking off another item on a Xerox copier and making it available for sale, their originals are absolutely indistinguishable from other Xerox copies. Multi-copy distortions, blemishes and all - I know that to be a fact, as a bona-fide original purchaser.

An original from the author and a copy made by your friend are completely indistinguishable, so the safest thing to do if your plans were not purchased from the author is to burn them, bury the ashes out of state, and spit-swear all your friends to secrecy.

[John kuehn]

For the sake of argument or just asking questions were Mel Millers wood plans actually have a copy right number or were they ever actually recorded ? Has anybody actually asked or looked to see if they were? Or we just assuming that they were.
I sold some years ago and as I remember the plans had a handwritten note saying something to the effect @ Mel miller copy rite.

[Tadpole]

[Scott_Conger]

And now you can see from Tad's posting that this particular Mel Miller drawing and likely others of his are now or very soon to be public domain.

OMG, what other topic can we jump on to worry about?

[John kuehn]

That’s the point. This has gotten to be “much ado about nothing”.

[26rdstrpickup]

Just out of curiosity, I searched for a list of copywrited material for 1970 and found one in the Internet Archive. I could not find any listing under Miller, Wood, Rewood, Model T etc.
I searched in:
Catalog of Copyright En-tries, Third Series. Parts 7-11A: Works of Art Jan-Dec
1970: Vol 24 No 1-2 by Library of Congress. Copyright Office.
Publication date
1970
Topics
Copyright Records - Works of Art, Reproductions of Works of Art, Scientific and Technicall Drawings, Photographic Works, Prints and Pictorial Illustrations
Publisher
Collection
U.S. Govt. Print. Off.
copyrightrecords; fedlink; ameri-cana
Contributor: United States Copyright Office

[John kuehn]

That was what I asked to begin with. Yes there is a copyright mark on Mel Millers plans as shown on the post. That was what was on the plans I had. So the drawings may or may not of been actually filed with the government accounting office. HHHMMMM??

I guess the truth is out there somewhere.