Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

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Paranyos
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Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Paranyos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:57 am

I bought my 27 touring a year ago and havn’t had a moments peace yet. Being new to model T’s the car seemed pretty good but immediately the problems started. I have gone from front to back diagnosing and solving problems, with the help of the ford service manual, a couple of great local T guys and the MTFCA forum. The car had a terrible vibration under load and I pulled the drive train and found a worn universal and pinion bearing assembly, as well as a drive shaft .006 out of round. I just replaced them all and went for a test drive. Everything was great for the first few miles and then my happiness turned to anxiety. I started to hear a kind of chugging sound coming (seemingly) from the drive train or transmission, or somewhere under or behind me. The further we went, the worse it got and my old vibration under load returned. We went about 15 miles total and by the time we got almost home, we were wondering if we were going to make it. I should mention that I did need to adjust the high gear adjustment bolt on the clutch pedal last night. I was getting a little lunge at start up and found that the clutch fingers were not releasing completely when the emergency brake was pulled back. That seemed to correct the problem. My wife recorded the chugging/whining sound and I will try to attach the recordings to help diagnose the problem. If it does not work, anyone interested, please email me at paranyos@me.com and I will email them to you. You need to listen to near the end of both recordings to hear it really well. Thanks again for the help, I sure hope you guys can figure this one out. I am at my wits end with this car. Paul A. I could not attach the sound files. Please email me if you are willing to help!
Last edited by Paranyos on Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A man has got to know his limitations!


Scott_Conger
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:12 pm

You changed universal, driveshaft, pinion bearing assembly...

Did you:

Properly set pinion depth to ring gear? How? (Milling face of driveshaft bushing, or FunProjects Spool bearing kit?)
Replace front driveshaft bushing?
Set ring gear/pinion backlash?
Did the rear axle even come apart?

answers to these questions will lead to better responses.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Topic author
Paranyos
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:59 pm
First Name: Paul
Last Name: Aranyos
Location: Greenville, PA
MTFCA Number: 50118

Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Paranyos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:34 pm

Scott, I ordered the fun projects pinion bearing assembly. However when it arrived from Snyders, I found that it was not a fun projects assembly. I specifically asked the girl on the phone if that was the one they sold and she replied yes. I used it anyway as it looked just like it and seemed very well made. I did not take the rear end apart, but was reasonably sure I had the pinion gear placement (in relationship to the ring gear) in the correct position according to the ford manual. I realize this is not the best way to go, but was hoping to avoid an extended down time since I have never been able to drive this car more than a few miles at a time since it’s purchase a year ago. The drive shaft bushing was tight on the new driveshaft and needed to be reamed as the old driveshaft was slightly undersized. The bushing did need a little facing to get clearance from the universal. Thanks for your interest.
A man has got to know his limitations!


Scott_Conger
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:57 pm

Sorry that you've had so much angst with this car. The hobby is fun when you can drive...not so much if repairing it is your only interaction... :cry:

I think your best bet is to stick with your local T chums, provide them with plenty of appropriate beverages and hope for the best. Your symptoms and sounds could have a couple of sources, and those sources are at either end of the driveshaft and there is little point to guessing until more diagnostic work is done. Sorry about that.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Ruxstel24
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:04 pm

One fairly simple thing you can check is end play at the rear wheels. Any in/out movement there can indicate a problem with thrust shims, Babbitt or bronze ? Did you inspect the ring gear when the driveshaft was out ?
My guess (only a guess) is the problem lies in the rear end.

You'll get there, good luck !


Topic author
Paranyos
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Paranyos » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:31 pm

Thanks guys for the words of encouragement. It has been a long haul with plenty of disappointments. As soon as I get one thing figured out and fixed another pops up. At this point I have almost doubled my purchase price, and I didn’t get it at a bargain. The few times that we have driven it without troubles, it has been really fun. We just want to be able to enjoy the hobby without fear of breaking down far from home. I did check the end play at the rear axel, shortly after I got it. There was no seeable movement. I could feel the slightest movement, I woul equate to perhaps a 32nd of an inch. The previous owner told me that he had done the rear end a few years ago. Aparently he neglected to do the drive shaft, universal and pinion as well as everything else on the car. Cosmetically, the car looks great. Moral - looks are deceiving. I did inspect the ring gear and all teeth looked good. At this point I am about ready to put it in the barn and throw a tarp over it until I have the mental energy to deal with it again.
A man has got to know his limitations!


Russ T Fender
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Russ T Fender » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:21 pm

It can take a lot of work to get a car tour ready. You just have to run it and address issues as they come up. Eventually you will get it all sorted out and have a good, reliable, road worthy car you can drive and enjoy. Don't give up. For your current issue I would pull the rear with the radius rods and torque tube as a unit and tear them down for a complete check. Replace what is needed and set it up to spec. That will either cure the problem or eliminate it as the cause but, in any either case, it will leave you with a reliable set up that will probably never have to be touched again. One thing I learned right off the bat is that you cannot rely on what previous owners say they have done. People have very different interpretations of what constitutes a rebuild. One of my cars was supposed to have had a freshly rebuilt rear when I bought it. It turned out that the rebuild consisted of new outer sleeves and roller bearings. Everything else was original including babbitt thrust washers, a three piece ring gear and badly worn pinion.


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:26 pm

Seriously. A couple of the best things (these days) for a newcomer without the equipment or contacts all ready and waiting is to have a good cell phone and AAA (whatever they call the premium or plus with added towing distances etc) and drive it gently on back road areas where cell service works and you can pull over to wait for the tow. It takes a lot of the anxiety away. Do not push hard or for distance with bad noises as that could become an expensive mistake.
It can take awhile to work the bugs out. And a lot of people are more cosmetically oriented, while some are mechanically oriented. Cars that look fantastic but are unreliable for more than a slow few miles are unfortunately quite common. Do not despair, take your time, and develop some friendships with local hobbyists that seem to like getting into the mechanics. The Ford model T is an amazingly forgiving vehicle.

I second suggestions to go through the rear end again. Especially if you do not KNOW what type of thrust washers it has in it. Making CERTAIN that the washers are of the right type (most notably NOT the original Babbitt/pot metal) is and has for a long time been one of the most important safety aspects of the model T hobby.

Once settled in, the Ford T model can take its caretaker many places no other car can. They have an almost magic ability to connect their caretakers to history, both personal and the world's, and open doors to understanding that is not easily found anywhere else.

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Duey_C
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Duey_C » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:49 pm

Wayne's last short paragraph is magical in and of itself. Heck, even I needed that right now Wayne. :)
Paul, pull those boots back up for just a little longer. You're almost out of the woods.
These little Fords can be worn beyond dust and run seamlessly IF they desire. The '24 gave me the finger real bad last fall but I'll go back after him soon. When he's ready? He's a smooth/super tough little bugger and would probably take me to the ends of the Earth at his pace and he's completely shot. The '18 has been sneering at me too lately with several small problems.
They and Lucky the '24 TT are just mad at me for working on old tractors again instead of just them. Model T's don't like to share you once they have you, so they share their troubles to get attention.
Paul, got a cell phone and registered at youtube? Take a movie and post us one there if you wish. I found it's WAY too easy. :oops:
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:22 am

I feel your pain, or at least I felt it. I bought a 1923 touring that looked very nice but turned out to be mechanically a mess. From the NH carb with holes rusted through the bowl, to the completely worn out front end, to the rear axle that locked up when the Babbitt thrust washers disintegrated, it was just one mechanical misadventure after another. But between those adventures came periods of being able to enjoy driving the car. Eight years ago I got a second T. That has been a big plus. Both cars have needed occasional work that had them grounded for awhile, but rarely at the same time. The first car is now down with transmission trouble that will take major surgery, but I'm about to finish putting a fresh engine in the second one so I'll have a T to drive. Not everybody has the space for a second T, but for those that do I recommend it.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Topic author
Paranyos
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:59 pm
First Name: Paul
Last Name: Aranyos
Location: Greenville, PA
MTFCA Number: 50118

Re: Who wants to play “Identify this sound” ?

Post by Paranyos » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:09 am

Thanks guys for the advise and words of encouragement! I appreciate all of the help I have received from this forum over the past year. I have met a number of really nice T people who have given me advise and lent me tools, carbs, coils, etc. I met a fellow named Bob P. A couple of weeks ago who gave me his number and said to call him with any questions. I contacted him last week while working on my driveshaft and pinion assembly for some help. He said that if things didn’t work out, he had an extra rear end he would be happy to lend me while I rebuild mine. I hated to impose, but called him last night and am picking it up tomorrow. I hope to be up and running by the weekend and can work on my differential at my leisure without pressure to get it back on the road quick. I have found the model T community to be a great bunch of people and we look forward to many years of touring and making more friends. Bob is pretty much a total stranger who is willing to lend out an expensive model t component to a newcomer in need. What a great guy!! Thanks to all for the help! We cant wait to get on the road again!
A man has got to know his limitations!

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