Terrible noise coming from transmission

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Rosenfelder
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Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:07 pm

A couple of weeks ago I was driving down a hill, and decided to hit the brake suddenly. Suddenly there was a terrible noise from the transmission. I pulled over and looked under the car, expecting to see some disaster. The engine sounded fine, but when I hit reverse or brake, there was a noise like something wanted to escape. I found that if I drove very slowly, I could move in low. I nursed the thing to a friend's house. He said "well, what do you want to do? Do you want me to pull you home?". I decided to drive, cause there was no noise, if I went slow. My neighbor followed me in his truck, with a big pull strap in the back. All went well for a mile or so (all down hill and using the e-brake), until I got to the last up hill. It did not want to go with out more noise. I got pulled the rest of the way.
Because the sound seemed to 'definitely' be coming from the transmission, another friend and I pulled the hogshead. We saw nothing unusual. Later I pulled the engine, and still have not seen a smoking gun.
The only unusual thing I found was an apparently loose castle nut behind the pressure disk, when I removed that. Later I noticed that all the aluminum spools that mount the magnets were pitted in the direction of rotation. The crank case showed a funny 'sand blasted' area where something was apparently propelled against one side, also in the direction of rotation.
I have yet to complete the tear down, and may find something obvious like a big broken part.
Could the loose nut cause all this noise?
The engine was overhauled a year ago and I have not had any trouble until now.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, J.R.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:37 pm

Could the loose nut cause all this noise?
Darn right it could!!

You're lucky you still have a transmission in that thing. That nut has no business being anywhere near that engine much less inside it. The only thing I could think of is that it was used to set the distance on the clutch throw out (not being able to judge the size of the nut). Something as small as a lockwasher can destroy a transmission.

I can hardly believe the car has been driven any time or distance with that inside.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Erik Barrett » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:37 pm

The thrust washers in your rear end have likely failed.

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:42 pm

Do you know for sure what's inside your rear axle? I ask this because noises from the rear often travel up the drive shaft tube and are mistaken for transmission noises. If the answer to my question is no, your problem could be here: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:57 pm

Engine is overhauled a year ago. The transmission has a terrible racket. There is impact damage all over the flywheel spools. A loose nut is found in the transmission.

And it's a rear end problem.

Huh.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Adam » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:04 pm

Terrible noise in the engine, especially in low & reverse. A loose nut was found inside the driving plate along with all kinds of other damage as it had been rolling around inside the engine & trans.

You found the problem.

Now you have to closely look at everything else for hidden damage, or just put it back together and take your chances...


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:27 pm

I think that it is a 5/16 or 3/8 nut. It must have found a 'safe' hiding place, maybe on a magnet, until a sudden braking shook it loose. I can't believe that it has been shooting around in there loose for a year. Last summer I made a 60 mile round trip and last month a 42 mile round trip, without any problem. Even drove in a Memorial Day parade. Just dumb luck. Engine at an idle sounded fine, only made noise when I tried to move.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 pm

John

I agree. It hasn't been bouncing around for long as you WOULD have known. If it is that small, it is a most certainly a 3/8-24 nut and has possibly come off of a pedal support bolt that was installed backwards.

If you look at your pedals on the hog's head, you should see 3 nuts on the outside...each physically located at the "underside" of the pedals, holding the supports (ramps) for the pedals. It is possible that the mechanic put this together with the nuts on the inside and then failed to cotter pin them. This is the only place I can conceivably figure where this nut came from (suddenly).

I think this is a long-shot, but it is remotely possible.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:19 pm

It might have been off one of the connecting rods during a previous adjustment. Sometimes something falls into the transmission and does not cause any problems until it happens to get picked up by the magnets. It can be soon after falling or years later.

One thing I experienced soon after installing a rebuilt engine was the first time I took it out it was running fine until the magneto cut out. I immediately switched to battery and it ran fine except not quite as much power. I drove it for about 10 years and participated on tours in that condition. Later I rewound a magneto ring for another car I was restoring and rewound a couple more. I decided to install it on the car I had been driving for years. I found laying in the bottom of the crankcase, the funnel off the inside oiler. The magnets came in contact with it and ripped it off. When that happened, it cut the winding on the magneto coils and then landed in the bottom of the crankcase causing no future problems. I had an outside oiler on the engine and it got enough oil to the front so that was not a problem.

Anyway, You caught it early before it blew up the entire transmission, but you should check everything out thoroughly and replace or repair everything which was damaged before you re-install the engine. That includes the magnets for cracks or the brass screws broken.
Norm

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:51 pm

And it's a rear end problem.

Huh.


Yes, I know it seems silly. But I also know rear axle noises are often taken to be coming from the transmission. I agree that the pedal ramps as a source for the loose nut would be possible as Scott describes. The only other explanation for it I can think of is that it may have accidentally been dropped in there sometime or that it came off a rod as Norm suggests. The front corners of the hogshead have a little shelf formed by the top of the pan where loose objects sometimes lodge until they bounce off and do mischief. That nut could have been slung by a magnet and sitting there for weeks or months before it moved. Why are all the spools pitted, and only on one side? I can't imagine that one nut hit all of them enough to cause all the pitting. Is the pitting from corrosion? If so, what did it, and why would corrosion be only on one side of the spool? What about that rough patch in the pan? Rust pits in a pan that sat with water in it sometime in the past 90+ years? It's all very mysterious. I'll be interested to see what further dismantling reveals.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:00 pm

I bet that nut was up in around the magnets and got sort of tucked in. Probably been there since the rebuild. Stranger things can happen. I would check all the places inside the engine where it could have been used. Not that many as I remember. If you don’t see anything suspicious it was probably dropped inside the pan or was picked up on the bench by the magnets when being assembled in the shop.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:18 pm

If you read the initial posting carefully, the problem started when the brakes were applied HARD! Climbing a steep hill aggravated the symptoms. I think Steve quite probably nailed it with the rear axle comment. Very easy to eliminate if the hogshead is off. See how much “slop” is in the rear end by “rocking “ the car fore and aft. There should be virtually NONE!

Yes the loose nut is a problem, but is not consistent with the symptoms.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:57 pm

Les

this is not to pick on you, but when a guy says the transmission made a racket and he ultimately pulls a nut out of the transmission, and the transmission (on a nearly new engine) shows impact damage all over, I have a hard time jumping on the rear axle bandwagon.

I will agree that in the MAJORITY of cases when a transmission makes "sounds", it is most often ring/pinion (or similar), but for the life of me, I cannot fathom why or how you or others can discount the removal of a castle nut from the transmission and immediately lay blame elsewhere. Do you regularly find these things in YOUR transmission? I sure don't!
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:35 pm

Scott, chances are you're exactly right. I'll be interested to see what John finds with further investigation.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by JP_noonan » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:01 pm

Since the engine has already been pulled, i would think you could get a GENERAL idea of the condition of the diff, good or bad by spinning the wheels/pulling in and out on the axles and listening for noises etc...No? :?
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:37 pm

JP.
Precisely my thoughts. Nobody knows where the nut came from inside the engine. So to reassemble the car without a “cursory “ inspection of the rear axle would seem foolish to me. Hopefully I’m wrong.

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Bob McDaniel » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:06 am

I swore my transmission made the sounds when the thrust washers went out in the rear end and it only made the noise when I was moving or stopping. 80% of the time I find two things went wrong at the same time on my cars and most problems are not related. The nut could have done some damage and made some noise but why only under power? My guess here is you found a problem that may have saved your engine but maybe it is not the problem that made the noise you heard when you hit the brakes hard and then when you are in low. I vote to open the rear end and play it safe if you don't know what you have inside. You might even be able to turn the drive shaft with a wrench and see if the gears bind or skip in the rear. If it does, you know you have a problem like missing teeth.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by RustyFords » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:54 am

Regardless...I'd be wanting to look inside that rear axle if it were mine....if only just to see whether or not the babbitt washers had ever been replaced. Now is the time to do it.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:09 am

I don't mean to rub it in but I see this so often on the Forum. Back yard wrenchers pulling stuff apart without asking here, (or some one who knows). OK something was in the engine. The assumption was that's the problem. But it may not have been. In fact if, as I also suspect, its the differential, that nut might never had been found with proper diagnosing.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:11 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 pm
The three bolts and nuts attached to the pedals are properly installed and still intact. Nuts on the outside.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:19 am

I messed up that last reply...
I'm having trouble pulling the clutch drum. I have a 'Steven's Repro' clutch drum puller. It doesn't open up enough to install the foot disk. I used a big nut instead, but as I tighten, the rig starts to shift off center. I'm having the shop at work, modify the foot disk. I used some heat from a MAPP gas torch. After I inspect the rest of the transmission, I'll look into the rear end. Not sure how to do that though. Thanks all for the support.

Also, after this 'terrible noise' happened, I could drive slowly in low without noise, but when I sped up or touched the brake or reverse, the noise kicked in. When Alan pulled me up the last hill, I was in neutral (clutch pedal pushed half way in, and lever in vertical position) there was no noise.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Jeff Hood » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:54 am

No telling how that nut got in there, but I suspect as has been suggested that it got picked up by the magnets on the workbench when everything was being assembled. Good thing you found it!

However I don't think that is the source of your noise. I don't see where you describe the noise other than being terrible, but if it is happening when the driveshaft is under load, forward, reverse, and braking, and is a loud rapid POP POP POP POP POP, your thrust washers have failed and the ring and pinion gears are skipping teeth. On a closed driveline car where the rear axle is solidly connected to the back of the trans by the driveshaft tube or torque tube, the noise is conducted through the tube to the trans and heard right under the floor, but it is occurring in the rear axle.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:36 am

For those who theorize that a nut in the transmission will not make a racket and cause damage, drop one in, take the car to the ice cream shop Sunday to test the theory and report back Sunday afternoon to let us know if your theory is indeed fact.

It wasn't too many years ago that virtually no one understood that rear end noises would translate up the drive shaft and sound like a bad transmission. It looks like the pendulum has now swung the other way, in that so many are prepared to believe a stray nut in a transmission simply could not cause the problems described.

Perhaps every tooth is off the pinion and ring gear...maybe the key is sheared on one or both axles or all 6 bolts on a rear wheel have sheared off. Perhaps the release spring is missing on the crank and the crank is spinning out front. All that noise might be cleared up with the right oil. Have I covered all the most popular guesses yet? I'm not looking at the car, so I don't know. I do know that when I learn that a nut was pulled from the transmission and then read that some folks claim that it couldn't be the source of noise, they are leaping to a conclusion using a different sort of logic and experience than I.

Sincere best wishes go to the OP
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:02 am

Going to pretty much repeat what I've said here before. Proper diagnosing. Not pulling stuff off the car first. "It ran yesterday now it won't start so I pulled the head". You've all seen this kind of post and it always defines a shade tree guy sticking his neck out. Guesses on our part do not help but simply muddy the issue. Offer proper procedure please.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by rgould1910 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:58 am

I am surprised that no one has suggested taking wheels off and pushing each axle shaft in toward the center of the rear end. If a thrust washer has disintegrated there will be a lot of detectable movement. Not discounting something in the transmission, but the driving symptoms sure sound like skipping gear teeth in the rear end.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by rgould1910 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:03 am

The other thing that comes to mind is a disintegrating roller bearing in the ds spool.
Happened to me with similar symptoms.

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:19 am

There was no diagnosing done here at all. At the very least pulling the trans inspection cover and seeing nothing unusual should have led to checking other possibilities out. He's tearing apart what was, he claims, a good running recently re-built motor that made no noise with the car standing still. As yet that nut appears to be a fluke. I'll re-read to see if anyone has tried to identify it as an internal engine part.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:41 am

He's tearing apart a transmission that had a nut floating around in it doing damage. Kudos to him,

Charlie, should he just drop the nut back in? After all, you would just open the transmission door, not see anything and would have left the nut undetected and unfound. I'd say the OP has made more and better progress than by your description, you would have at this stage. And maybe he WILL eventually find a bad rear end, but in the mean time, he has removed an unexploded grenade from his transmission. I think you're being pretty hard on a guy who had a problem of some sort, has found a significant problem within the transmission, and will likely get this resolved whether he is berated for his diagnistic skills or not. This is a great way to dissuade lurkers from posting their first question and discourage those that do, from ever repeating that horrid offense again.

Richard Gould, I agree completely.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:43 am

Sometimes strange noises stop! One time I had a bolt come out from the driven plate flange at the rear of the brake drum. It made a big bang and then no more noise. However, Next time I tried to start the car, the starter locked up. The bolt had been picked up by the starter gear on the flywheel and tossed up into the oil screen under the inspection plate! The engine ran fine. Upon pulling things down, I found the drum was cracked at the bolt holes and the bolt just worked out even though it had been wired in place.
So your nut could have been the cause of the noise
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:09 pm

Why in God's name would I drop a nut back in ? What I said and I'll say it again was that he pulled apart a running/ recently re-built engine before checking anything else. This is exactly what he did.Didn't post here and asked no one about it.He found a nut that hadn't caused a problem prior to tearing it down and might never have caused a problem. "The engine ran fine & quiet and the car made noise only when moving". Read the post. It's very telling. Another thing: If a lurker is so thin skinned that he/she can't take real (and I do mean real) suggestions about how to correctly diagnose and repair their vehicles well maybe they should continue to lurk. I never stick my neck out about things like noises but suggest ways & things that should be checked before wrenching things apart. That's simply not how it's done and if you were working on the outside in a shop doing what he's done you'd be looking for work in a hurry. There's a right & wrong way to do these things and randomly tearing things up isn't it.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:42 pm

Charlie

the man thought he heard a noise from the transmission. He inspected it and found a nut flinging around inside. Sounds like he did an excellent job diagnosing a flinging nut in a transmission. Everything you've written indicates that you are downright angry that he found that nut and if he'd done a PROPER job of asking your permission and advice, he'd have missed the nut entirely. That would have been a sad day.

Isn't it just a B**** when someone does a shade tree job of it and actually finds a significant problem along the way? If you think for a moment that a loose nut flinging around in a transmission
might never have been or would never become a problem
tells me that any advice you ever give anyone, regarding Model T's, is suspect to the point of being summarily ignored.

Perhaps the OP will eventually find more trouble in the rear end, too, and then everyone will be thrilled.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:24 pm

Oh please don't give me the holier than thou BS. There's simply a proper way to do this you're on the contrary side and are now making up garbage to back it up. The man's on the Forum. HE"S ON THE FORUM. Not a lurker but poster. Could he have gone the same route ? Damn straight BUT if he asked here first you can be sure he'd have the rear end on horses and checking it out first. Once again "the engine ran quiet the car only made noise when it moved" . This discounts the nut from the noise problem. Understand the kings english ? You don't start at the front you start at the back in this case. Am I angry ? Sure because if he had posted here first he wouldn't be doing what he's doing. My advice, Steve's and a number of others made suggestions from EXPERIENCE. Not guess work.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Michael Peternell » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:01 pm

Gotta say I'm with Scott on this. I'm definitely not even considered as a model t guy. But if found this in the transmission of anything
old piece of equipment I owned and the insides showed that kind of abrasion going on I'm pretty sure l wouldn't tear apart the
Rear end to see what was wrong. Could very well be something in the rear end. But really why would you start there?
That's like " I have milky looking looking oil, should I check my tire pressure?" I get the fact that it has been diagnosed
Through years of experience. But why would you start there? Cause someone posted it as a probable cause on a website?
Sometimes common sense has to kick in.
Just an opinion that means absolutely nothing.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:51 pm

Because people who've experienced it are advising you. Take the knowledge or ignore it or don't ask for it. He found something in the engine that as yet hasn't even been identified as belonging there and therefore seems to have been dropped in possibly at the recent re-build BUT the engine ran good and was quiet. Do you pull it and tear it to pieces or jack up the rear and check the diff ? Bloviate all you want he may very well be spending time & $ for nothing. If you don't know ask.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Michael Peternell » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:01 pm

Pretty sure we're on the same page. I agree with not throwing parts at it until it's fixed!

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Bob McDaniel » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:11 am

I don't want to stir things up at all but the OP did say he saw some damage in the transmission area although it may have been minor damage so I am with him on this pulling things apart to check for the cause. Little things turn into big problems fast. That turned out to be a good call on his part when the nut was found and inspecting everything else inside is now also a good idea. The noise could have been the nut at some point but I have heard the sounds of a small part like that flung around inside an engine and the same sound from the rear end. Both sounded like the transmission was about to explode but the difference was the part inside the engine only made noise after the engine started and gained a little RPM before the magnets let it go and kept making that sound till the engine was shut down and the rear end noise only happened when the car was moving but when sitting still it sounded normal. I still would at least check the rear end at this point if it were mine but if not and the problem still exists after its back together then its not that much extra work after putting it together to take the rear end out if it needs to come out. The way it sounds just did not add up to the nut as the ONLY problem here to me. I am not saying to pull everything off the car but check what you can check while you can within reason. You will feel better about the next drive when you KNOW its right. ;)
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:00 am

.Got the engine back together and installed. This is what I found: One stray castle nut. Evidence that something had been shooting around in the magneto space, evidenced by lots of abrasion to the aluminum spools that space the magnets. An area inside the crankcase where something had been blasting against it, consistence with the marks on the aluminum spools. The main felt oil seal on the crankcase was petrified. I assumed that the engine block side was the same, so I removed the crank to get at the felt seal. Turns out it was OK. Apparently replaced when the engine was rebuilt. I replaced both seal halves. I did find that the connecting rod bolts all had lock nuts (no cotter pins or wires). The manuals recommended not reusing the connecting rod bolts, so I ordered new ones with cross-holes and castle nuts. With the oil dippers, cotter pins would not fit, so I wired the connecting rod castle nuts. I noticed that one of the wrist pin bolts was not wired, so I tightened and wired that one. I found a lot of carbon on top of the pistons and in combustion chambers on the head, and cleaned that off.
I removed the clutch pack and pulled the clutch disk drum. I did not separate the three drums. I did not see anything amiss in the transmission.
After reinstalling the engine, and starting it up… The same ‘terrible’ noise was there, possibly worse. An angry clunking noise. Clunk, clunk…clunk…clunk, clunk. Makes you want to quickly shut it down.
A Model T friend came over to re-diagnose the cause of the noise. He determined that it was the rear end. After borrowing a spring stretcher tool, we removed the rear axle. Turning the u-joint on the axle[image][/image] / drive shaft assembly with various methods didn’t reproduce the ‘terrible’ noise. Opening the fill plug showed no grease at the fill hole. It looked like the rear end might be dry. Once before I opened the plug and a bunch of grease came out. It appeared like somehow engine oil was migrating into the rear end. The rear wheels did seem loose on the axles and had eaten up the shims that were supposed to tighten them. I split the rear end and disassembled the differential. The ring gear shows quite a lot of wear, but no broken teeth (looks worse in the photo). There was grease in the housing, not engine oil, just not up to the fill hole. There was evidence of leakage out the right axel at the wheel. There was also an accumulation of metal at the bottom of the case. The thrust washers were intact.
Back at the engine with the drive shaft removed, the engine starts and runs quietly (normally) with the shift lever vertical or in ‘parking brake’ position. But, mashing any of pedals stalls the engine. No ‘terrible’ noises. It seems like there is no neutral. Its like the clutch pack is stuck together (my guess). Looking into the inspection cover shows that the pressure is off the clutch push ring.
The loose nut in the crankcase was not a good thing but was not the problem. What could be the cause of the ‘angry terrible’ noise? Why is there no neutral? Could something be broken between the three drum assembly? Can I reassemble the rear end with a worn ring gear?
Any help would be appreciated. Getting frustrated.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:12 am

John

an angry clunkclunkclunk while engine running and car not moving and everything assembled
a nice sounding engine/transmission with drive shaft removed
Do I have that right?

The difference is this: with the drive shaft in place, the triple gears must rotate to have a neutral. With no drive shaft, any binding of the triple gears will not be resisted by the drivetrain, and they will then spin the entire transmission as a solid unit like in high gear...silently

I believe there is a very high likelihood that you have similar trouble as AdminJeff, ie severely damaged or seized triple gear bushings. This can be somewhat verified by excessive movement/wobble of gears through the inspection door of hog's head or easier if head is off. Pulling drums off transmission will uncover the evidence
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:26 am

Thanks Scott, I forgot to add that the rear wheels were up on jack stands. Wouldn't start otherwise. Sorry for the misleading description.
Last edited by Rosenfelder on Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:31 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:30 am

I didn't see any damage to the triple gears when I had them out. The three triple gear pins and the bushings in the triple gears looked OK.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:50 am

John

I reread your earlier post just now and completely missed where you pulled apart that far...sorry about that.

Did you:

verify the drums spun freely and independently of each other when off the main shaft
there were no bent or damaged teeth on all 3 drums
triple gears were properly timed when reinstalled
forward and reverse drums could be spun and planetary system all operated smoothly

?

At this point, I wish you luck in your search. Not being there to see/feel/hear and grasp at diagnosis through the internet will lead to guesses and not diagnosis as is presently the case

So long as the engine/transmission runs quiet with no driveshaft, and there is no neutral and car must be started on jack stands when all together, your focus is still on the transmission.

If my bolded statement is incorrect in any way, then there are other possibilities.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:16 am

I thought the drums rotated freely when the engine and transmission were re-assembled. The triple gears each had a timing mark, but the sun gear didn't. I installed all the timing marks in between teeth on the sun gear, and counted the teeth between each gear, Wired the triple gears to the sun gear and dropped the assembly over the triple gear pins. All went together OK.
I didn't re-soak the cleaned clutch disks over night in oil, but squirted a lot of oil on each disk as I re-assembled them.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by rgould1910 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:42 pm

When you have the rear end out did you take the pinion off the drive shaft and inspect the roller bearing and thrust bearing? I've experienced broken or disintegrating bearings on two occasions with varying symptoms.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:09 pm

Richard

as I understand it, in addition to noise, the car has no neutral. How would a bad pinion bearing cause the car to have no neutral?

I believe that rear axle noises can sound like transmission noises, that from the pictures, his rear end has seen better days, and that even "no neutral" may simply be maladjustment following the transmission teardown. But with the present facts, as laid out by the OP, I'm not a fan of ignoring a symptom to fit a cause, which has to be done to point to the pinion bearing.

Whatever it is, I'm sure we both wish him a speedy discovery on the root cause of his trouble.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:10 pm

Did not check the pinion bearing...yet.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Jeff Hood » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:23 pm

I see maybe three different things going on here.

1) That ring gear shows obvious signs of skipping over pinion gear teeth. It is beyond any further use. This is the cause of the terrible noise in the original post -SKIPPING TEETH. The noise sounds and even feels like it is right under the floorboards, but it is not the transmission! In the original post it was stated that the noise occurred while braking, trying to reverse, or under acceleration, but he was able to drive it gently as long as not climbing a hill etc. Classic gear skipping probably due to worn thrust washers or thrust surfaces if the pins have worn or sheared. The bad noise came from and is still coming from the rear end.

2) That stray nut in the engine doesn't belong there, may have made some noise sometimes, but apparently caused no harm other than the witness marks found on inspection. He dodged a bullet there, good thing he found it, but it was / is not the problem.

3) The transmission seems to have no neutral. The transmission was working fine in the original post. He drove it most of the way home and apparently had low, high, and neutral as well as reverse except for the noise. Something is mis-adjusted or out of place due to the disassembly and reassembly of the transmission during inspection. Possibly in the reassembly of the clutch pack or the timing of the triple gears.

Overhauling the rear axle with new ring and pinion and thrust washers will end the noise. Finding and fixing the transmission mis-adjustment or mis-assembly problem is the next issue.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:47 pm

Jeff

I just blew up the photo of the ring gear which I had not done previously. Looking at it closer, I now believe you are correct, as is the advice to look into the pinion bearing that Richard gave. I made a significant mistake in not viewing the picture closely enough and giving poor advice. Like you, I believe now that the rear end rebuild will solve the root cause of the grinding when putting on the brake. As far as no neutral, who knows, but it will likely be sorted out shortly.

That was a good catch, and far more obvious than I could see.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:01 pm

At least you're now seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Good Luck.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:21 am

I will get ring and pinion gears ordered. What else will I need to get the differential back in working order?


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:08 pm

I do have new bronze thrust disks to use. I didn't like the look of the tapered end of axles, and ordered a new pair. Have seals coming for the outboard ends of the axles.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:36 pm

Nobody seems to have new standard ring and pinion sets until November. A friend offered a used ring gear. I may be able clean that up and use it.

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by JP_noonan » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:03 pm

John, if it were mine, i would wait on a new ring and pinion, as its impossible to clean up wear on the ring, and have it properly seat to whatever pinion you decide to use. Although its not the most difficult task on a T, rebuilding the diff may very well be one of the most important ones, as far as safety is concerned. Do yourself a big favor, get the book, get the new parts, do it right once and you will feel 100% more confident in driving your T. That's what i did when i was in the same situation as you..Good luck, and keep us posted.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:27 am

JP Thanks. I found a good used ring gear, which I may install. The pinion that I have looks OK. I have new thrust disks. I don't want to leave the T in pieces until November when new parts are available, and it should be good practice to set the differential up now and then do it again when I get the new parts. I need to get the rear end back together so I can diagnose the 'no neutral' problem. Without a drive shaft, and the engine running, shift lever vertical or pulled back,when I push any of the pedals, the engine wants to stall. Clutch pack seems stuck, but I've been wrong before.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:25 am

Last time I had the engine in place, It would start and run OK, but when I pushed any of the pedals it would stall. That was with the drive shaft disconnected. I wanted to see why there was no neutral. I pulled the engine again. I looked everything over carefully. The only thing that would lock up the transmission was when the clutch spring was released and pressing on the pressure plate. With the spring pulled back with a gear puller, all the drums can rotate independently. I think that somehow the clutch was still clamped up before. I still need to convince myself.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:36 am

What I found in my rear end: There did not seem to be a lot of play. The ring gear is worn. The pinion looks pretty new. I found a better used ring gear. Both ring gears look dusty. There have been in the vibrating parts cleaner. There were no babbitt thrust washers, just three shims on each side of the ring gear carrier. One of the thinnest shims was torn. I have new bronze washers and two new axles.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:24 am

I don't know whether the picture is of the ring gear which was in the car or the "better" one, but it looks quite worn, and I, personally wouldn't use that one.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:25 am

That washer on top looks pretty bad! There had to be a lot of back and forth movement in the whole assembly as it is no where close to the proper thickness. Is that the ring gear that came out, I sure would not reuse it. Hopefully the pins that keep the steel thrust washers are in place and in good shape, if not I would replace them too.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:49 am

One picture is of the 'better' used replacement ring gear, the other with the little spikes on the outer end of teeth is the gear that came out of my car (with the terrible noise).
On my previous 'engine in place test': I had the drive shave disconnected, hogshead on, all bands backed off. With the shift/parking brake lever vertical or pulled back: with the engine running, any pedal pressing tried to stall the engine. I have to think that the clutch spring was not releasing. Not sure how that could be. I thought that the bronze clutch release ring was in the right place. I think that there was still pressure on two of the three clutch fingers with the high speed clutch supposedly released.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:58 am

Given that the ring an pinion were slipping on each other, the pinion is not undamaged. For the savings of $179 for a new pinion gear, that is false economy, believe me. Replace them as a set. New. You've gone through a lot of pain and time to get here...
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:09 am

Ring and pinion sets are not available until November. Lone pinion gears not available either. I checked six suppliers. I want to keep with the 3.64 ratio. I thought that I'd nurse this through until then. I also noticed that I don't think that I have any thrust disk pins. All sheared off.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:47 pm

The bronze thrust washers that I received have no small holes in them for pins. Why not? Do I have to drill my own?


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by jab35 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:23 pm

John: The brass or bronze thrust washers fit between two steel washers that are captive by the pins. The pin protrusions must be slightly shorter than the thickness of the steel washers. And it is likely you will need to remove some brass/bronze washer 'thickness' to achieve the correct ring/pinion mesh. This is well explained in the mtfca rear axle rebuilding book and also in numerous past posts on the Forum. Happy T-ing, jb


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Dan Hatch » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:26 am

Buy the Ford Service manual if you do not have one. It will tell how to do anything you want to do to a T. Dan


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 am

Thanks all. I have the manuals. I have to replace sheared off thrust washer pins.
Question: How do you press the gears off of the axles if you don't have a press?

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by aboer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:08 am

John R. If you come to me , I do it for free for you !!

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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:12 pm

Anthonie, Thank you for the offer, but I live in New Hampshire USA. Maybe too far to be practical.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:56 pm

The gears don't often need replacing, though sometimes the axles do. Just mentioning this, because unless one or the other is worn out, there is no need to go to the effort. FWIW.
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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Rosenfelder » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:29 pm

I have two new axles. The old ones are a little rough. Leaks grease on one side, and the wheels are a little wobbley, even when tightened. The gears do look Ok though.


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Re: Terrible noise coming from transmission

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:08 pm

There's an excellent chance that the wheel hubs are shot if they wobble even when tightened. New axles will be ruined by bad hubs if given the chance. Just make sure the tapers are straight in the hub...a quick check though not super accurate is by simply laying a steel ruler in the taper and seeing if it rocks fore/aft. Also, when the wheels are on the new axles, the axle nut should JUST clear the cotter pin hole. If you need any washers or shims, the hubs are done-for (and they wouldn't be the first).

The modern replacement hubs are VERY well made.
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