Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

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Mark Gregush
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Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:00 pm

Did any 21 inch Ford wood wheel have loose lugs type rims? I know some 30 inch and the rear TT did. I am trying to help someone that has 21 inch wood wheels that am thinking are Chevrolet transplants so want to be sure.
The wheels look like this one at least in the fellow area;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1919-1920-1923 ... SwKphcN3ie
I have only seen photos of his rear wheel and it looks to have a Ford hub cap on it.
Last edited by Mark Gregush on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did any of the 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Jeepbone1 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:29 pm

Yes. I know for sure Jackson made some. My uncles 26 touring has a set on it.


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Re: Did any of the 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Allan » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:36 pm

Not on our Canadian production.

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Re: Did any of the 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:33 am

Jackson or Jaxon?
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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:54 pm

I think both were used. Jackson was the company name and the lugs had Jaxon on them.


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:33 pm

There is some interesting information on the MTFCA encyclopedia concerning Fords transitioning to the use of balloon tires (21”) and the type of wheels and rims used. Ford sent out a directive to the dealers about using the 3 different brands used besides Ford and how and when to use them. Jackson or Jaxon isn’t mentioned so they may been an aftermarket brand. Not sure about that of course.
Some of the brands that’s mentioned used lugs and some didn’t. It seems that the Ford brand wheels and rims didn’t use lugs.
There is lots of information about wheels and the directive from Ford is very informative.

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:30 pm

Jaxon supplied wheels to primarily GM and maybe some other car makers, but as far as I know, not Ford. The 3 makers of wheels in the book "Model T Ford, the car that changed the world" are listed for the 30" wheels, there are no makers listed for the 21". I did check the 1928 parts book to see if there was any information on 21" loose lug wheels, rims, there is none. The 21" would have been an option for 1925 up. From the information in that book, the 24 would have come with 30" wheels with no option for the 21" unless I missed it. If the DVD has more information, I do not have access to it. As I told Milford in his ad or email message, it would not be first to have the Chevrolet 21" wheels put on a Model T.
All I can find is a letter from Firestone dated March 6, 1925 talking about them supplying balloon tires to Ford in the documentation section of the book.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by dobro1956 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:48 pm

I will agree with Mark. I am not home with my library, but I do not remember ever reading about or hearing about any removable lugs associated with Ford 21 inch wheels. There are removable lugs for the Hayes 30 x 3-1/2 inch wheels and also TT rear wheels. I have done considerable wheel research on the 26-27 Improved model Ts. I have never seen any mention of removable lugs or mention of Jaxon wheels or lugs. Jaxon wheels are usually associated with Chevrolet and other makes of autos. It is also fairly easy to remove the hubs from a T wheel and install it in a Chevy/Jaxon wheel. Thru the years of working on Ts, I have seen converted Jaxon wheels with T hubs many times.

The above is Just my 2 cents worth and is probably over priced ....


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Altair » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:35 pm

I have 21" Chev wheels on the front of my 26 Canadian T 10 foot inspection you can't tell, the valve is orientated one set of spokes either left or right of the Ford location. I just re drilled a second hole. The old hole could be filled re-finished and there would be no way to tell. I believe Dodge came with lug type wheels.


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Speedsterguy2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:58 pm

The other way to come at this question is from the part supplier end. Attached copies are from the 1929 "Official Catalog of Genuine Wheels, Rims and Parts" published by the National Wheel and Rim Association. Rim photos in the following posting.
Attachments
1929 Wheel & Rim catalog.jpg


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Speedsterguy2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:02 pm

And here are the Cleve Weld, Firestone and Kelsey-Hayes rims:
Attachments
Kelsey T Rims-2.jpg
Kelsey T rims.jpg
Firestone T Rims-2.jpg
Firestone T Rims-1.jpg
Cleve Weld T Rims-1.jpg


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Speedsterguy2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:05 pm

And one last Kelsey!
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Kelsey T Rims -3.jpg

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:18 pm

Tim thank you for the information. What does it show for 21" Chevrolet wheels? Say 1919 to 1928. Part of this is trying to figure out what rims are needed for the wheels that are on Milford's coupe. I am fairly sure from what photos I have see, that they are Chevrolet wheels.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Speedsterguy2 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:42 pm

OK. The same catalog shows 33 different rims for 20 different Chevrolet models between 1919 and 1929. All were made by Jaxon or Kelsey-Hayes. However, there is only one loose lug rim in 21 x 4.5. That is a Jaxon Type 30 rim. (click on photo and it will turn right way up)
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Jaxon Chev Rim 4.50-21.jpg

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:58 pm

Big thanks again Tim. maybe by 26/27 Chevrolet was using the same #30 rims on both the wood wheel and disk wheel.
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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Mine look like the Type 30. Interesting that they are on a Ford. It has Model T hubcaps. Better pics coming soon.

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:44 pm

Thanks for posting such great rim information, Tim !


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:58 pm

Here are a couple of other photos of the wheel. Unfortunately, I cut off one edge of the wheel, but I don't think it has a notch cut out of it like the ones in the EBay ad.
Attachments
WZCKbMn8RpSplvUzP7DwNg.jpg
fullsizeoutput_212e.jpeg
OujB6j0STcC1DAUdLTxPTQ.jpg
ViGYebSaSZazg2zYl8BYdg.jpg
agrSqoZaRdOSMANJ9qKffg.jpg


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:59 pm

Final pics
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IU436O6hRK6VJ%Gp84+xoQ.jpg
Q0bMaZB+SdqEipxFrYUUvQ.jpg

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:35 pm

Ok looking good so far. Do the fellows have a notch about 180ish from the latch holding the ends together?
DSCF7527_LI.jpg
DSCF7531.JPG
DSCF7533.JPG
Here is a photo of the narrower 26/27 rim on a 28 wheel with the wider fellow.
DSCF7525.JPG
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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:04 pm

Here are some other pics of the whole wheel. No notch that I can see.
Attachments
fullsizeoutput_2131.jpeg
fullsizeoutput_2134.jpeg
S+hDCD7RRh26zZQMzdVveQ.jpg

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:45 pm

Milford, my first suggestion at this point is to find a set of proper wheels and rims for you car, the 30X3-1/2's.
Looking back over the photos I am seeing a mixed bag of parts, maybe.
In your ad for the rims, the photo shows one with the dimple which should be the 26/27 style that would need a notch in the fellow like I showed above. In your above photos, the first rim you show with the tape is 2-3/4 to 3" across the back, but from the other side is about 3-1/2" and the wheel shows no notch. Were they the same rim? The 1928 did not have the notch or dimple.
If you wish to continue with the wheels on the car:
Measure across the top of all 4 fellows and rims. Dose not matter where they are on the car just the measurements. Are all the rims/fellows about the same width?
Side by side; narrower 26/27 and wider 28 rims;
DSCF7535.JPG
While I am no expert, I am learning more as I go along. Nice thing about Ford in the era they were mostly standardized, well except for rims and wheels but that is another story at this point.
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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:52 pm

Just for comparison purposes here of some pics of a 21” Ford wheel and split rim. Looking at the Ford and Chev differences the most noticeable is the notch in the chev felloe for the lugs. The bolt hole is probably the same size in both fellows.
Other than that the wheels look pretty close.
Attachments
190105B7-2AEA-4E95-AD9C-382155D1714E.jpeg
623734CB-92FA-484E-A4B7-9F53E0669C18.jpeg
FA705A90-463B-43EB-9147-A354C7A46B29.jpeg

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:04 pm

If the fellow on the 1926/27 Chevrolet wheels are both the same, wood or disk, the Ford 21" rim will not fit on the 1926/27 21" Chevrolet wheel for those years, been there, tried that :( The ridge on the Ford or Chevrolet fixed lug rim will not let them go on and the fixed lug holes do not line up.
I have a number of 21" rims, both Ford and Chevrolet, mounted fixed lug type. They range in width of about 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 inches which would be the right size. I was going thru the process of grinding off the ridge on one of the not so good ones. You have to remove the lugs and plug weld the holes then try to keep the ridge you are grinding down at an even height. To keep the rim from moving on the wheel, a locating lock is needed on the rim. The rim I tried this with, things were just not lining up, the lock needed to be on top of the latch assembly basically and would not let the rim bolt to pass thru as is, still working on it. (working with 26/27 disk wheels with spacers on Ford hubs) The approx. 1925-26 Chevrolet wood wheel used 21" rims with fixed lugs like the 26/27 Ford, same except the valve stem hole is in different locations, but these wheels that we are trying to help with are not the 25/27. Those I have rims for! ;)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:25 pm

Looks like availability is going to be the issue in finding the correct rims. I have a feeling Ford wheels and parts for either 21” or 30x3 1/2 are a lot more plentiful than Chev parts but not being a Chev fan don’t know for sure. Unless you get lucky and you might, you may have to go the Ford route.
In years of going to swap meets finding a good set of usable wood wheels for T’s isn’t common and if you see some you had better get them because they will be gone pretty quick.
The cheapest way for wheels is probably building a set since the Ford metal parts are fairly plentiful. But to each their own.

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:32 pm

Milford got the car with the wheels on it so I have been trying to help him. I think putting on the correct wheels might be the best move too.
I am a antique/vintage car fan not loyal to any one make or model, like them all. :D
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:49 pm

I have already bought tires for these because, as far as I knew at the time, these were the right wheels. I think the easiest thing at this point would be to find a couple of the Jaxon rims, if I can find them. All new wheels and rims would be quite an investment. Apparently the car worked fine with these for a number of years. I do not know because the car had been stored in a basement since the early 1960's and the owner died long ago. In a way, I am intrigued by this situation because it was one of those "make do" situations that come up. As you could get Model Ts with 21" wheels starting in 1924, they are not incorrect.

One thing that puzzles me is the rear hubs. As you may be able to see from one of the photos, everything looks pretty good to my eye. I would think that maybe the Jaxon wheels wouldn't fit there? I have a Model T buddy coming over tomorrow and maybe he has some ideas. I will also try one of my 21" Model T rims and see how they fit.

I didn't pay much for this car, but I don't want to get too upside down on it if I can avoid that.

I do great appreciate all the suggestions and comments. It is great to have a community like this to get input and opinions from.


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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:21 pm

Milford you might try the antique Chev website and see if someone has the correct rims for your wheels. Don’t exactly know the name of the site but they do have one I think.
Another way you can go with wheels is to buy the wheel adapters for 28-29 Model A wheels to T hubs. Decent used Model A wheels aren’t real expensive like the 26-27 T wire wheels are. Since you have 21” tires they would fit the 21” Model A wheels. Lang’s sells the adapters and occasionally they show up on the classifieds.
The thing about old or classic cars is that you have to pay to play and if your like me sometimes you have to pay a little more than you want to! I have a 63 Ford Galaxie hardtop that I learned that lesson the hard way!

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:17 pm

I sent the link to the VCCA site to him.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Did any of the Ford 21 inch wood wheels come with loose lugs looks like maybe early Chevrolet, But?

Post by MHSprecher » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:58 am

John,

Thanks for the tip. I have two Model As and two V8s, so I am not new to this, but very new to Ts. I know that there can be some zigs and zags in the road. This one was unexpected, although I thought that the rear wheels looked small for the fender opening. I have a lot to do before I finish this car, but I did want to get the wheels and tires done early in the process.

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