Tourer year identification and engine questions

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Waikinoluke
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Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:07 pm

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Hi I’m new here and probably asking the same questions an many before me!
I’ve got a model t project I’ve bought in bits believed to be a 1919 tourer, the engine that has been reconditioned many years ago has no provision for the generator but is stamped as November 1919.
The transmission cover has provision for a starter and is stamped November 1919 as well.would this be correct as starters were optional for open cars? I read that all engines after april 1919 were the new style.
Also how can t tell if the chassis and body are in fact 1919?
Reguards Luke
Waikino new zealand

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Ruxstel24
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:47 pm

The casting date 11-19 should be a 1920 year model, the engine number does not match and appears like the first digit is a C over top of a 5 ?
Possibly a replacement engine for yours or another car.
Correct block for a starter car...


Humblej
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Humblej » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:00 pm

C in front of the serial number indicates Canadian manufacture, 226k would be November 1919.


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Waikinoluke
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:18 pm

Ok so even tho the block doesn’t have the provision I’m the casting for a generator those blocks were still used on cars with a starter? Or is it a non starter engine? I realise with the transmission cover a starter can still be fitted but no generator to charge the battery!
And were Canada a bit behind as I thort those blocks were discontinued earlier in 1919.


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Allan » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Luke, the engine number and casting dates are consistent with an early 1920 Canadian produced car. The only inconsistency is the lack of mounting for the generator. That is an anomaly. I can understand the transmission cover being a starter type as these became the standard in 1919.There should be blanking plates over the two mounting holes. Usually, when the starter equipment was not fitted, there was also a cast blanking piece to cover the spot where the generator was mounted, on blocks which were cast to receive same. Yours does not fit the programe!

Allan from down under.


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Humblej » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Please post a picture of the location the generator would go. I suspect you have a blanking plate that you can swap out for a generator mount, and there's a ring gear on the flywheel.


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Waikinoluke
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:59 pm

Ok I thought it was a bit strange ,I’ll need to track down a timing cover as the ones I have at to fit generator blocks. I also have some later blocks but they would need reconditioning.
The car it’s self could be made up from parts from other years,is there a photo gallery or the likes that show the tell tail signs for of identitying different years?


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Waikinoluke
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:00 pm

I’ll take some more pictures ant post them soon

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:56 pm

This will date the frame.
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The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by kerry » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:44 pm

The first of the starter T's at our end of the world had a bolt on belt driven generator.


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by kerry » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:51 pm

img450.jpg


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by wayne sheldon » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:19 am

I think the biggest part of the problem here is that Canadian, and US production differed quite a bit, and the differences are still being sorted out. On many details, Canadian production lead the way, on others, US production was ahead. I don't know just when the "no generator" blocks ceased in Canada. In the US, no starter blocks were used on no starter cars (open cars or TT trucks only!) only through mid to late 1919 model year. After that, for about one year only, most but not all non starter engines used the earlier no starter timing gear cover with a special cast side cover for the big timing gear. The hogshead for awhile may have been the earlier non starter type or the later starter type with block-off plates. From some time in 1920 till the end of production, open non starter cars used the same blocks and hogsheads as all other Ts including the generator mount casting and front cover, but with simple block-off plates where the starter and generator were supposed to mount.
Canadian cars were different. Because of many being right hand driven, they had a generator mounted on the left side of the engine as Frank v E says, and shows the picture of. I am not sure how long that generator was used, but it wasn't very long. The problem with the generator and right hand steering brackets was sorted out, and Canadian cars got the same generator as the US cars used. Regardless, I suspect (but don't really know for sure?) that Canadian production may have used the true no generator block a bit longer than US production did.
I believe that Russ Furstnow was working on the judging standards for Canadian Ts last year. He may still be working on it. Your car/engine could maybe be an interesting data point for that effort?

1919 was an interesting transitional year for the model T, US or Canadian. I am not quite certain, but I think 1919 was the last year for Canadian Ts to have the straight windshield and "two-man" top. Canadian Ts lead the way for a slanted windshield and "one-man" top (easier for one man to put up or down than the "two-man" version) I think beginning in 1920. US model Ts didn't get those features until 1923 models.

It should make an interesting model T !


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Waikinoluke
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:37 am

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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Glen McConachie » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:50 am

Hi Luke

Have you been in contact with some of the 'local' t guys?
There are a few in the Waikato that may be able to assist if you are trying to piece parts together.
I'm a bit far away but can ask around if needed

Regards
Glen Mcconachie
Dunedin
New zealand


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Waikinoluke
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:09 pm

No I haven’t but that’s a good idea.
It looks like my chassis is a 1923 not a 1919 but that’s fine with me.
Thanks to everyone who replied your input and info is greatly appreciated, it really is good being signed up to this forum.
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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:50 pm

I still say that “C” looks like it was stamped over a “5”... :?:


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Waikinoluke » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:59 pm

Yea It definitely looks as though it’s stamped over another number! I’ll take another photo up real close


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Allan » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:20 pm

Luke, the last of the chassis with the forged running board supports were on 1921 models here in Australia, so yours having the pressed steel one piece style is at least 1922.
Re the engine number, Canadian engine numbers all have the C prefix. your letter C is smaller than the numbers, which is not usually the case. If that smaller C is stamped over a 5, the original number then did not have a C prefix, so may be a USA engine. If that is the case, such a US number would be way earlier than the casting date would indicate. The plot thickens!

Allan from down under.


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Re: Tourer year identification and engine questions

Post by Allan » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:28 pm

My apologies. If the block is USA production, it would be around August 1921. I was thinking it would be a 6 digit number, rather than 7.

Allan from down under.

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