'16 Centerdoor restore...

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fordorgalore
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'16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:27 am

Just picked this up yesterday. It appears to be a mutt and also appears to be re-wooded. Who did this wood, I have no clue. Not much correct about it and it will have to be replaced. Should be a fun winter project.
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George House
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by George House » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:33 am

Hmmmm... Once again - very interesting. I also have a ‘19 centerdoor. Original wood in excellent condition. Your bracketry: very interesting upper steering column stabilization bracket. I don’t have this. And the “dish towel rails” on both doors. I have them too. Are they meant to grab and close the door with?
One of the biggest problems with today’s youth is they’ve never known the fear of hearing leather being rapidly pulled through seven Wrangler belt loops.

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by George House » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:36 am

Our centerdoor is my wife’s favorite. Think it’s the bud vases. And it’s the ‘peppiest’ T in my collection. Congratulations on your acquisition. Upholstery looks good. You sure you NEED to reword it?
One of the biggest problems with today’s youth is they’ve never known the fear of hearing leather being rapidly pulled through seven Wrangler belt loops.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:57 am

Thanks George, yes I'm pretty sure I will end up doing a frame up carving on it. It was redone but no accuracy to any of it. And I knew that before I handed the cash over. This also appears to be a mutt. Seems to be a mix of close but no cigar parts. It should keep me busy this winter and that's really what I want and need.
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Rich Eagle
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:34 am

What an ambitious project. I will look forward to some pictures along the way.
Those center-doors are very special.
Rich
When did I do that?


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:48 pm

Are you going to add a couple more doors Don? :D


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Dallas, heck no!! I've gone on a diet and cut the calories in half with this one. :D :D :D


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:59 pm

Rich, I tried to add some pictures this afternoon. NOPE once again this forum has a problem with my pics...frustrating. I even tried the same pictures I posted and no cigar. So when this fancy dan forum has a mood swing I will post again. Errrr !! :? :? :?


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:25 am

More pic's... This car was originally from the Upper Peninsula where you look up to see how deep the snow is. I was a bit surprised to find rolled roofing under the top pad. The weight of the roofing material took a toll on the top bows. Just part of the fun … Notice the prior stapled the chicken wire and screwed the headliner hangers. yeeee ok~ :o Once again this forum accepted these pictures and that was that. I will try to post more pictures as its mood allows....
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:05 am

Yikes...hard to find anything for a pattern. Oh well, it will be a fun challenge.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by John Codman » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:26 am

I definitely see why you are replacing the wood!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:22 am

Oh boy... Buyer beware. This thing was obviously slapped together to increase it sale price. I didn't go for it but now i'm amazed at what i'm finding. The "D" pillars are suspended along with the vertical slats. I don't mean to knock someone's attempt to restore a car but this isn't restoration.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:39 am

Looks like some nice pallet lumber was cut with a hatchet to build it. A bit more detail was needed? I like the double switch on the dash. More work than I would want. Im sure you will be knee deep in sawdust soon and have a real nice T by spring. Thanks for the photos!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by John kuehn » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:54 am

Well at least you have some wood structure to by. Sort of and better than nothing. I guess!?
Good luck!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by John S-M » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:42 pm

Wow, what a challenge...I understand the concern of many as to the quality of wood working....very umm....interesting, the top bows look like they were put in upside down, and those steel l brackets ! ?? Would be helpful if any of the original wood came with it, not only for patterns, but also to ID the body builder...I suspect this one is a Fisher body , but the door latches puzzle me, my '19 CD has latches go thru the "bottom" of the window frame, are several inches taller , and face the other way ,also no brass around them. Have you checked the headlights yet, should have 2 bulbs, as used in 19 & 20 closed car only. While you certainly have your work "cut out" for you, I wish to thank you and the fellow who did this attempted rebuild for rescuing this rare model from the bone yard...I look forward to seeing the process going forward...this forum continues to be a great source of info for myself and others. THANK YOU FOR SHARING...Best wishes, respectfully, John


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:09 pm

Wholly Moses! I have finally seen woodwork FAR worse than I have ever done! I mean, I know I have done a lot of "cannot afford better" "low budget and cut a lot of corners" restorations over the years? But never anything nearly THAT bad! And yes I have used free pallet wood, but I sort through it and cull out anything not decent enough.
At least the car got the right person to do this now. Don Booth, you are/is the best for this for certain (along with Charley Shaver IF he was still doing this sort of thing). No doubt when finished, this will be one of the best center-door sedans around!
Is this one for you? Or someone else?

John S-M, So that is the definite distinction for those "two-bulb" T headlamps? I have wondered and asked a few times on this forum in the past about that, and don't recall a definitive answer (maybe I missed it?). I have read quite a few opinions, speculations, and over the years later proven wrong devoutly-believed ideas. 1919 and '20 closed cars "only" makes better sense given the numbers of lamps around than almost any other ideas do. (I hope my aging memory can file it properly ?)

Don B, Anything going on with the Lambert? Or did it drop to the wayside? Haven't heard anything about it in quite awhile. Just curious, It is such a neat automobile!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:01 pm

HI WAYNE !!! Let me say first that its great to know you are still keeping people honest on this new fancy dangle forum thingy. Secondly, thanks again for the kind words. Its a sign of a intelligent, thoughtful, caring person. So why are you still living in Funkafornia ?? (just kid'n I know its the hot place to be). This car I bought for myself. Its what the west coasters would call a "support project". I can't take it on the planes with me but it still serves its purpose by keeping my mind active. Actually I fell in love with the centerdoors. I just love driving the '22 around and I can't explain why. This summer I got a call from a friend I've known since birth. She wanted to know if she could stop by for a visit. I instantly said "absolutely !! ". When she arrived I was completely shocked to see she had her 97 year old mother with her. Monabelle raised me and her 3 daughters until we graduated from high school and then we all went our separate ways. It was totally unexpected and the flood of good memories dang near made me pass out. I ended up taking them both for a ride in the countryside in the '22 C-door. They both just had a smile from ear to ear and was experiencing something new from something old. When we got back to the shop Monabelle hopped out of the car and came right up to me with her finger pointed at my nose and said "Donny I will NEVER forget this" and I looked at her and said "Neither will I kid". There are so much crap in the world now days, to find something that spurs that kind of a response from a person that has seen it all....well its just wonderful. So if one C-door is that cool then two C-doors might sway the good Lords opinion in my favor, when the time comes.
The '19 C-door was priced right considering it needed to be completely re-done. Most of it is complete but I am missing a generator and also the metal dash. I didn't expect to find a chainsaw kind of construction, but that's ok. I will go buy some rough cut ash and start one piece at a time. I'm getting too old to keep doing cars for others and this one I what to take a pace that is more inline with a 65 yr old. I also want to NOT work all summer on other peoples cars and spend it with my lovely wife. She will be retiring next year and I hope to hop in our new motorhome and head out west. So I suggest you get that 30 amp service box installed and also a firepit, if its not asking too much? ( :D ).

The Lambert is being restored by another and he is up to his eyebrows in work. The owner has purchased at least a dozen other one only cars and they all need restoration. I was actually being recommended to him to restore the 1910 Fuller he purchased. So not much to report on that one. I will update now that this forum will accept my pictures. I'm still having issues with it. Today I lucked out and it took the above pictures and then it just quit. Reminded me of my first wife... Anyway stay alive and kicking and always BE SAFE !! :)


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:49 pm

Some more pic's.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:51 pm

Hey there Don B! I am pretty much trapped in Califunny at this time by family needs. I really shouldn't talk about it. Suffice to say we seriously considered trying to move out about two years ago, and I was all for it. Unfortunately, after realities started setting in, others couldn't handle it. If I had my way, we would have been out of this state of insanity fifteen years ago. I have been in Califunny nearly my whole life. However, since I was very young, I have been proud to say "I wasn't born here." If certain circumstances change, I may leave here yet. Although, as I get older (68 now!?!), it may become not worth the cost and effort to make such a move.

So, a 1910 Fuller I am afraid to ask about. I had one of those, one of only about 17 Jackson-built Fullers known to exist. About half of those are 1910s. I sadly had to sell mine due to family needs, a recurring theme in my life. I just hope the one I had got a good home. I had my doubts about that when I sold it. Maybe this is the same one? If it is, and was badly treated, I don't want to hear about it.

On to better things!
I do hope you can post updates about this (or any) restoration. It is always fun to read of others making progress on their projects.

Take care and be well my friend!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:17 am

This is the '10 Fuller I was referring too...

Someone ate 30 pound of sugar and took a can of red paint and brush to it.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Sarikatime » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:30 am

Donald, there was a very detailed and lengthy article in the Vintage Ford, I believe in several issues in 2006 or 2007 where this person rebuilt a centerdoor from the ground up . It was pictured as a step by step reconstruction along with full explanation of what where and how. When it was finished it had all the bells and whistles on the car that Henry never intended or dreamed about but it was a great article. If you cannot find it let me know and I will look back in my library and take copies or pictures if it would help. Frank


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:41 am

Frank

your time frame is correct...it was Joe Fellin of AZ. Very complete and thoughtful series on a total rebuild from soup to nuts. Your description of all the bells/whistles is modest. I've never seen a T festooned with more stuff than that car...I'd say it was more like a calliope or orchestrion (with appologies to Ben Yumori who actually drove a Caliope T)!
Scott Conger

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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:59 am

Frank, Scott are you sure it wasn't the write up of Les Sumners Centerdoor? Les lives about 45 miles away. We have known each other for several years now. Les is a perfectionist at everything he does and heck of nice man. He took the old fabric material from my 1922 C-door and actually duplicated its design. Les had his C door at the Standish Model A and T show this summer. It was by far the best car there and the interior was incredible. I will be using him for details on this restoration, he doesn't know it yet so don't say anything. :roll:


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:17 pm

This is some of the pictures of Les' C door.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dropacent » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:21 pm

Don, I always look forward to your wood car adventures. You have a 3 dimensional brain, which is a rare thing and will be much needed on this one. I have seen worse, many , many years ago. It was a packard body where some “restorer” poured fiberglass resin down the termite infested pillars. Have fun, I already know you like the challenge!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:22 pm

And more... plus two of my '22 C door.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:53 pm

Don

Les' car is gorgeous and may have in fact been in one of the magazines...I don't know. If so, it is a striking example of woodwork, as I know you are going to do. With respect to my instance, I was indeed referring to Joe Fellin of Apache Junction, AZ., and his series of articles.

FWIW.
Scott Conger

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:21 pm

FWIW, Not my Fuller (just as well, it has become an unhappy memory). Mine was a two cylinder (a 22 hp two cylinder!). Engine was also a Davis however. Mostly original, with a fair repaint for a museum back in the 1950s. I just hope it did get a good home. Such a wonderful car!

Enough of this drift!

Let's keep the thread on a soon to be wonderful restoration of a model T center-door!
Thank you for posting all these pictures Don B, et al.

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:48 pm

The wood in Joe Fellin's Centerdoor, while an ambitious restoration, was not anywhere near the caliber of Les's centerdoor wood.

And that's just the opinion I formed from looking at both. I'm not degrading Joe's restoration at all, because restoring a center door is a daunting task. (i know first hand), but Les did it like the factory.
William L Vanderburg

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by HornsRus » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:14 pm

i have rewooded 6 of them, you have got your work cut out for you. i still have all the patterns charley


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:33 pm

Charlie, I re-wooded my '22 C-door is the '19 the same? I know there are slight differences such as the metal skin around all the windows and post. I haven't had a chance to compare the two yet. Also, do you rent or sell patterns? They would be handy over back and forth comparison. Thanks in advance.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by John S-M » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:08 pm

It seems I owe you all an apology , in an earlier post I mentioned the 2 bulb headlamp setup, Wayne's polite questions got my foggy brain working.....I had to be sure I didn't put out misinformation, alas I was only partly correct. So here I post from Mr. McCalley's magnificent book , p.257 "Now that the Ford had a battery,new headlights were supplied which had two bulbs ;one for the regular "bright" running lights, and the other a 2 candle-power (C.P.) bulb for the "dim" lights........................…Non starter cars continued the double-contact bulbs, wired in series..... I stand corrected, and most sorry for any confusion :oops: :oops: , respectfully, John s-m


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:38 pm

No worries. We are all still learning what was done when on these things. Bruce's research was far and away the best up to the time the book was written, but even he thought (told me so!) there were errors in it, and it would take many more years before much of it would really be known. Part of the problem is that factory records, and design notes, and sales brochures, and various other historic records and reports do not always agree. Throw in factory photos along with thousands of other era photos coupled with what we see on surviving largely untouched cars, and we really get lost.
I do not claim to be the expert here. In fact, I have asked this question myself several times over the years on this forum about these lamps. I do think Bruce's book may be wrong on this point. There simply are not nearly enough surviving two bulb lamps to have been used on all the cars with starters and batteries for most of two years. There are not enough surviving cars of those years with the two bulb lamps. There are not enough era photographs of cars of those years showing two bulbs, and plenty of photos showing only one bulb.
This may be one of the details we may never figure out precisely, correctly, what happened when.
Frankly, I think closed cars only for much (but not all) 1919 is one of the most likely probabilities.
But that is just my opinion.

Back to Don B's center-door!

Maybe we should try starting another thread on the headlamps question? I know it didn't achieve a satisfactory conclusion that last time I saw one.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by D Stroud » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:24 am

Don, that wood sure looks like Cottonwood from here, and yes, a lot of pallets are made from it. We have a lot of it here in the MO. River bottom area (N.W. MO.), even had a sawmill here that made pallets from it, at least before the MO. River floods hit in March. Floods are still going on. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:23 am

This car has a two filament socket on the passenger side and single filament socket on the drivers side. I have a feeling the drivers side headlight is incorrect for the car.

Now I have to wonder how the heck the prior managed to put the cobra grain top on? The rear window panel (shown here) shows the cobra grain under the top of the steel rear window panel, along with the padding. They must have put the top together and then mounted the rear window panel ?? There are many ways to skin a cat... and a T.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:49 am

Well lets talk tolerances. This is one way to fit the skin to the psgr side A pillar. Looks like it came up short by about 1 1/2". Hmmmm what to do?? What the hey, I'll just nail a patch in dar…. :)
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:37 am

HOLY COW
William L Vanderburg

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1922 Center Door Sedan


Marty Bufalini
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Marty Bufalini » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:25 pm

I love center doors and I'm really enjoying this thread.

Thanks and keep 'em coming!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:31 pm

Well Marty, if you ever head north, i'm just off I-75 Wilder Rd. Easy on, easy off. You are more than welcome to stop in and see what mess I've got myself into. :)


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:13 am

Hate to keep beating this dead horse but how much work goes in to this kind of sculpturing? I can't even tell what type of tool was used.

After removing the body nails the entire rear wood came out in one piece. Frightening !! The last picture show a frame mount to nowhere.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:43 am

That is one rare body Don!!! Beaver built bodies of Bay City are RARE !!!! Thanks for photos because words would not do justice.

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by George House » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:12 am

Beaver Built bodies from Bay City... that’s too funny.... Here’s a picture of me in the back seat of my centerdoor. Most wimmen think I look like Pierce Brosnan...😜
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:14 am

George House wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:12 am
Beaver Built bodies from Bay City... that’s too funny.... Here’s a picture of me in the back seat of my centerdoor. Most wimmen think I look like Pierce Brosnan...😜
That's because that IS Pierce Brosnan
William L Vanderburg

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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:43 am

George, that's just freak'n cool !! :D :D :D :D :D

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HornsRus
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by HornsRus » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:06 am

don what state are you in? charley


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:19 am

You know, before I read Dallas' comment about beavers, I was thinking the same thing. In reality, it looks like chainsaw. Usually when faced with this level of incompetence, I hold my tongue, but frankly whoever did this was so over their head that to keep at it and do the ENTIRE car like this is really shameful. Looking at these pictures is like driving by an accident...you know you should keep your eyes on the road, but something keeps pulling you toward the mayhem...

I hope his next hobby is not old airplanes.

Don, this is one for the history books. I'm looking forward to the "after" pix, as I know they will be a work of art.
Scott Conger

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:20 am

Charlie, i'm in Michigan the lower mit. North of Detriot about 114 miles. (I know because I had to commute everyday for 8 years of pure bliss).

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Bob McDaniel » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:22 am

Wasn't this the car Gilligan drove around the island? Someone just re-skinned it with center door metal.
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:23 am

Well thank you Scott. I often wonder if my postings are tiresome, its hard to keep doing these old cars and make it interesting.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:25 am

Bob, i'm think'n this thing may have been set up to reenact Charlie Chapin's smack'n the bump ~


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Mikes 1912 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:02 pm

It is amazing what can be done with a bow saw and an axe. No power tools and batteries needed.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:40 pm

Firstly HELLO LES !!! I hope you are doing fine. I miss our talks !

Things are looking pretty dog gone good with the metal. That's a relief.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:29 pm

There, the easy part is done. Let the good times roll !!
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by RustyFords » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:09 pm

Major respect to you Don, for saving something so hacked together.
1924 Touring


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:20 am

Scott Conger said "You know, before I read Dallas' comment about beavers, I was thinking the same thing. In reality, it looks like chainsaw."
The funny thing is, Just before I read that and the several posts before it, I was thinking "I have seen chainsaw art that was smoother than that!"

Don B, I don't think you need to wonder how to keep this interesting. For one thing, you seem to have a natural talent for keeping long threads interesting. For another, I think this project just demands interest.

I always enjoy following your threads.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:23 am

Thank you Wayne, this will be a cut in half by the New Years event. And, the project will be a real pain without one good pattern to go by. I can take measurements off my '22 but I can only get so much without tearing that one apart. The next step is to pull the engine and go thru it and then the rearend. Then check the frame for being straight and square. This part was fun because it came apart easily but putting it back together will take a goodly amount of time as you well know. I will have to tap a few of my friends for help on the project, I want it to be as close to original as I can get it. I also want to keep prospective that a hobby is a hobby and not a stress filled burden. The winters are long here and getting into such a project is perfect for a guy like me. Let the world lose its sanity, there is nothing I can do about that. Give me my barn, a commercial free Blues station and a big cup of coffee and all is good. :D ;)


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by D Stroud » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:04 am

Don, I am absolutely in awe of your talent and abilities. Please keep us updated on your progress. I have ADD and when I look at a project like that, all I can see is a bunch of stuff that I have no idea of how to put it all together, only what it should look like when it's done. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:49 pm

" Give me my barn, a commercial free Blues station and a big cup of coffee and all is good."

Do you ever listen to Robert Johnson (1930s)?


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:26 pm

Thanks Dave I will try to keep you abreast as it progress'.

Wayne, the station plays a mix of modern and vintage blues. I love it !

NOW, its been brought to my teenie little brains attention that I may actually have a 1918 Wadsworth body here. The wood that I have removed all had pencil marks as if the prior traced the shape from the original wood. This would explain the four vertical rear panel braces. It would also explain the window channel being attach to the glass and not the pillars. Other oddities like the wood work around the rear window. Its ALL different from the slightly later Centerdoors. IF ANYONE has any information or pictures of the 1918 Wadsworth body frame, I am in need. I can use the hacked up wood for a reference but I would really like to get it as close to correct as possible. Thanks in advance !!


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:18 am

Thanks to Mike Husted its been determined that this is actually a 1915-16 Centerdoor body. So, that changes the plan of attack. This may be a much longer term project than previously thought. Using the original 1920 Fords part list catalog the conclusion is indisputable. The shopping list just grew exponentially ! :shock:


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Model T Mark » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:26 am

I can help with a lot of the chassis stuff when your ready. Rear end steering column and such appropriate for a 15. We are not that far away from you. Mark and Phil Eyre


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Marty Bufalini » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:13 am

Don, thanks for the invite. I may take you up on that.

Marty


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Model T Mark » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:46 am

Oddly I have a pair of repo 15-16 rear center door fenders available to provided I can find them. Mark Eyre meyre14t@yahoo.com.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Jim Sims » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:54 am

My guess is that in the past somebody had a newer open car and used this body to make a closed car. I understand this was done a lot.

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by WayneJ » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:12 pm

There can't be that many 15-16 Centerdoors on the road. How exciting that this on is on its way to being back on the road at the hands of such a talented craftsman!
Wayne Jorgensen, Batavia, IL
1915 Runabout


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by bud delong » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:12 pm

I think what Jim Sims wrote might clear up a lot of questions. :D Bud :D


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:47 pm

Yes I tend to agree that a body switch is most likely. But, its hard for me to believe this thing was used much at all. It just wasn't put together in a safe way.

This WILL be a long term project and I will be taking my time with it. In other words "Having Fun" !


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by J Sundstrom » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:06 pm

Don, that is an ambiguous project but very rewarding when completed. I know little about the centerdoors but like the style.
I have posted a picture of a seat back frame I have and suspect it’s T era. If it looks like it works for you let me know. John (Yooper part of MI)
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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:26 pm

J that looks like a Fordor rear seat frame. It may very well work on this centerdoor. It had no seat back frame so …..can't say for sure. Now, my '22 centerdoor had a similar frame also.
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Will_Vanderburg
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:52 am

My 22 rear seat back looks like John's. It curves at the top like his and is square at the bottom. Here's showing me removing the upholstery from it.
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William L Vanderburg

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:44 am

Right now its the least of my worries. I'm currently tearing the chassis apart and cleaning everything.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:46 am

Interesting headlight, the Fed's wanted Henry to make the headlights brighter. His reaction was to install another socket and lamp.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:36 am

Roughing in the base wood for this beast. Its all oversized so I can fine tune the body fit. Never enough clamps around for this.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Mark Nunn » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:05 am

I would put some old shoes on those running board brackets. You don't want to find those brackets "the hard way".

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by perry kete » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:37 am

Don,

Today is the first time I saw this thread and I would like to thank you for posting it and sharing all the pictures.

If you are storing pictures and records of your rebuilds on your computer PLEASE use a back up file system. I lost all my rebuild information when my computer crashed a few years ago.

Old shoes over the running board brackets is a good suggestion...I used foam pipe insulation and pool noodles and it saved my legs many times.

Keep those pictures and stories coming,

Denny
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:18 am

Mr Seth, have you taken a new lease on life? I would expect a bit of humor or at least some sarcasm from you. Anyway its good to know you are still out there! Be safe !!
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Ed Baudoux » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:31 am

Mark Nunn wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:05 am
I would put some old shoes on those running board brackets. You don't want to find those brackets "the hard way".
I don't want Don out there working barefoot, though. :)
Grayling Michigan
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:13 am

Don,

Will you be retrofitting a gas tank to go under the rear seat, or take the easy way and put it under the driver's seat? In 1915, it was under the rear.
William L Vanderburg

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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:38 am

I haven't thought that far out yet. My mission right now is to get the body re-wooded. This is a mix of 15-16 parts which makes me lean toward the 16 setup. But we will see. Standby !!

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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:08 am

Is the chassis 1915 too?
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:34 am

Steve, I would have to have someone that knows take a look at it. From what I've gathered it is or its very close to it. But I can be proved wrong rather easily.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Joseph A Stearns » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:28 pm

:Don, looks like your making good progress on the rewooding foundation . Soon you will be ready to install the Carberator 🤓😂
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by ewdysar » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:44 pm

While the Kingston L2 was available beginning in ‘16, the two armed choke indicates that the carb shown is a ‘19 or later example. The Holly model G was available through ‘15 and ‘16 and could also be considered depending on the chosen target date.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:51 pm

1915? 1916? While they may look alike in photos? They are TOTALLY different bodies! The '15 skin is mostly aluminum. The '16 skin virtually all steel. The rear tub is multi-part sections, the aluminum rear tub as a skin is one piece. while very similar, near every dimension is different. I have never seen one up close, nor have I seen photographs that clearly show it. But I have heard and read that the outside of the body hanged slightly below the top of the frame. I have heard and read that a few special parts unique to the '15 were required, but I find myself doubting much of what I heard and read years ago, because as much as I have looked, and studied photos, and seen? I have never seen those unique parts.
The true '15 is not quite as tall as the later C-doors. The rear window, still oval, is slightly different size. The windshield/visors are unique to the true '15 model. And again, body-wise, almost nothing is interchangeable between the '15 and the '16 models.
Production of the true '15 center-door sedans ended mid-year as hundreds of unsold sedans sat in storage awaiting sale. Remember, only about 950 of them were produced.

The '16 model center-door is a whole mystery unto itself. Very little is really known about them. In fact, until recently, it wasn't even known for sure that any were even built originally. Nearly thirty years ago, Bruce and I had a discussion about this subject. It was after the big black book was published (B's bbb), and I was restoring what was believed to be an early '16 center-door sedan. In his books, it was stated that no evidence was known that any "brass" '16 center-door sedans were built. However, Bruce said that some may have been, and admitted there was some evidence to that effect. (Later, I may post some notes that can be looked up, including an illustration in B's bbb.)
I lost track of the details, however, shortly after Bruce passed on, a researcher at the Henry Ford (or whatever name the Benson archive was going by at the time?) found a record of a small number of center-door sedans that were in fact built in December of 1915. Last I heard, total production number is not known, but is thought to be less than a thousand for all of 1916 also (it may even be much less?).

The car I restored is an issue itself. It had suffered a really bad 1950s restoration. NO attempt was made to keep the car correct. So everything about the car is suspect. However, it was claimed by the restorer to have been a real brass center-door sedan before the bad restoration was begun. It was toured in the late '50s and early '60s with San Francisco Bay Area antique automobile clubs. I never found it, but was told it was even pictured in a national club magazine. All of which really means nothing. A (then) well known collector bought the car in the mid '60s, intending to re-restore it. To that end, it was taken apart. However, then he found a "true '15" center-door sedan, and had it fully restored instead. With no interest in having two such cars in his collection, it (mine) got sold as a basket case. It went through at least four (I think five or six) more different owners before I ended up with it. Each of those owners provided some pieces it needed. And lost a few that it had had. By the time I got it, there wasn't much telling what was original to the car, or not. However, there were a few details, that my car had before I got it that made it different from any other center-door sedan I ever saw, except for one.
That one was owned by some longtime good friends of mine. It was also a very interesting car. For one thing, it was a Canadian built brass era center-door sedan complete with several Canadian features and details. However, it also had been poorly restored many years earlier with a loss of some of its correctness. Although owned by good friends, we somehow never got the two cars together. They saw my car and compared details several times. And I looked over their car a lot of times.
Comparing the cars was interesting for sure. And I think somewhat informative. The Canadian C-door had its original gasoline tank still under the rear seat! The rear seat riser/framework on their car and mine were basically identical, and not like any of the twenty or so later center-door sedans that I got to look at the rear seat risers in! So, our two cars, both believed to be originally early '16 T center-door sedans, had the seat riser designed for the gasoline tank. My car however showed no signs of ever actually having the under the rear seat tank installed. Their car had the front seats replaced by a previous owner to include the later driver's seat gasoline tank (the car did not have that originally!). My car had the gasoline tank under the driver's seat from new. My car also had unusual front passenger seat riser/posts. Their car had the common later style because both seats had been taken from a later car. I only ever saw one other teens era C-door with the passenger seat folding riser/posts like mine.

The Canadian car had some of the usual Canadian things, Robertson screws, fork mounted headlamps.
One of the things I discovered on my car while restoring it, was that the spark/throttle stamped quadrant was originally brass plated! For a late '15/early '16, I think that would be unusual. It of course had the early electric horn button, and the combination of the two features, one mostly early '15, the other mostly later '15/'16, I think was unusual in itself.

Unfortunately, we didn't keep the early center-door sedan very long. We sold it to buy a horseless carriage my wife wanted us to have. I soon lost track of it. I wasn't happy with the fellow I sold it to. And when he passed on a few years later, his estate sold it to a nasty collector/dealer (a two-face liar of the highest order). I have no idea where it went next. I do hope it got a good home/caretaker at some point. The car was worth proper preservation.

Your car? My opinion? If there is sufficient reason to believe it is a '15/'16? It very likely is not a '15 (unless most of that body metal is aluminum?). So restore it as an early '16. If you wish, get a December '15 block, and target December of 1915. That way, you can slip it into the HCCA. Otherwise, anything first half of calendar '16 would be great! There are a lot of fake '16 center-door sedans. Most of them poorly done and obvious to anyone that knows the '15/'16/early black era differences (I have seen a couple with early '20s chassis!). Also my opinion? 1916 is not well enough represented in the antique car hobby.


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:03 pm

scan0018 (2).jpg
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A few pictures of my '16 many years ago, on tours.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:45 am

Thanks Wayne for the information and pictures of your C-door. This project has more questions than answers and I don't pretend to know exactly what the story is here. The information I received from the original 1920 Ford parts catalog does confirm many of the parts as being '15 and '16. My conclusion is the car is most likely a '16 and likely a late '16? Any 100+ year old car has been tampered with and at this point its unknown just how much was changed. I would be the last person to claim this thing to be a original anything. As for now it seems to be a gray area at every turn. I haven't decided which way to go with this thing. The evidence points in many directions and questions are plenty. It would be more cost effective just to put it back together and hang a question mark on the license plate. However, I am enjoying the debate this one little car has stirred up ! Just the fact that there is no one clear answer is what makes this project so fun. Meanwhile I will make my way thru the snow to the barn and crank up the heat and the blues and pick away at yet another historical artifact with just a bit of a smile on my face.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Sheri » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:03 am

Don I have admired your work on these wood-intensive cars on this forum for some time. I completed restorations of several late brass era cars myself some years ago. Most recently a 15 coupelet that took herculian efforts of three different woodworking friends to help me complete. I am also a blues musician. Send me a pm and we can discuss both subjects in greater detail. If your car is a 16 it was most likely painted brewster green from the beltline down.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Allan » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:55 am

Don, this may/may not be helpful.
My 1915 Canadian tourer had firewall to frame brackets whjch still bolted to the top of the frame rail. They were unlike the previously forged 3 hole brackets, being made from flat strip. They followed the frame at the foot, bent upwards and then back fown again, to pick up the frame rail again. They used the same two holes in the top of the frame rail for mounting, but had just two holes for bolting to the firewall, just like the later brackets.
From your frame photos, I can see no holes in the top of the frame rail, but can see the two on the side for the later style. This may indicate that the car more likely to be later than 1915, but then again US production may be different.

Allan from down under.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:12 am

Allan B, USA production also used those "bent strap iron" brackets for a short time in early 1916 models. Apparently, with some speculation involved, the plan was to change to the later style. However, probably due to one of the usual production delays, the new brackets weren't available on time. Pure speculation, the bent strap iron brackets were utilized to keep the assembly line moving. Also, apparently, frames had holes for both the earlier and later style firewall brackets for awhile. I have had at least two such frames over the years. Both of the frames I had used the earlier style bracket holes originally, with no sign that a bolt had ever been used in the later style bracket holes on the side of the frame rail.

At this point, it appears there is a lot of speculation about Don B's new project, and just what its history is. The body apparently has a few features unique to the '16 models, however, much of the car is considerably later. Was it put together from gathered parts and pieces? Did someone find a loose body and put it on a chassis they had hanging around? Nobody at this point seems to know. He gets to chose the direction he will take it of course. Personally, I hope he resurrects the thing as an early '16. He is the right person that can not only do the body right! I think he can make it one of the most correct '16 center-door sedans around. Most of the ones around, frankly, are terrible! Frankly, most of the '16 center-door sedans around are '17s to '19s and even a '21 I saw some years ago. Just because someone puts on earlier fenders, hood, and radiator, doesn't make the thing an earlier car.


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:10 am

Thanks Sheri, Allen and Wayne. The frame has numerous holes drilled in it both on the side and top. I have looked them over and the side holes show no sign of ever being used. Normally you would find some corrosion from moisture being trapped but the frame is as clean as new. The inside of the frame shows no sign of nuts being tightened on it. :?: :?: :?:

Wayne I want to get the car put together correctly as a '16. I haven't put a lot of time in researching the '16 but what I've seen so far it is hard to find solid information on that year. What I have learned is much changed in '16 and a early '16 compared to a late '16 is a different car altogether. This is what makes this hobby fun and at this point I have plenty of time to get it all figured out. The re-wooding of the body will be the challenge for this winter and maybe beyond. Thanks for all your help and knowledge of this project, its extremely helpful and welcomed.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:49 am

I'm thinking this is the original glass channel...what do you think? Also a picture of the firewall bracket mounting holes.
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Lessumner » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:24 am

The windows look correct. My 21 has the same window treatment. The padding covers a steel framework that includes the attachment of the lifting strap.
Your frame holes for the firewall brackets is the change period from forged to pressed steel style. Les Sumner


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Sheri » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:19 am

My 16 coupelet (yes, at one time i owned two of them)was an un molested survivor right down to the green wool headliner and the frame did have the side holes for the 17 style firewall supports as your frame does. They also showed no signs of ever being used. Apparently they started to get the frames ready for 17 production well ahead of the end of the brass radiator design.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:12 am

Nothing sweeter than a tight front end. New bushings thru out and she's good to go!
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Topic author
fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:00 am

I found the drivers side of the frame had a slight bow in. Took a 20 ton jack and straightened it out. Just part of the fun !
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:24 pm

Are you sure twenty ton is enough?!
Kidding. The last one I straightened I use a trailer tongue and leverage!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:53 pm

Yeah it was a bit of overkill but I got it within a 1/16". The funny thing is, the frame was bent inward right at the running board brace. It looked to me like it was done at the factory. The brace still has the original rivets and no sign the brace had had any impact. It wasn't off but maybe 3/16" and only the top of the frame was bent inward. So I got it as close as I could without overdoing it. :?


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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:54 pm

Within a sixteenth of an inch sounds pretty good!
Thank you for my chuckle of the day!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:08 pm

Went thru the front end and the rear-end. Frame is straight and painted. Brassworks stock just took a jump!
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CudaMan
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Re: '19 Centerdoor restore... :)

Post by CudaMan » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:18 pm

Don, the speed at which you work and achieve great results is amazing! :)
Mark Strange
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1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)

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