Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

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Alex Dragone
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Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Alex Dragone » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:51 am

Does anyone know what the difference is between an Atwood castle 120 and 120A taillights are? Are the both correct for an 09 Ford? Or is one larger than another? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

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Rich Eagle
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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:14 am

When did I do that?


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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:18 pm

Hello Alex:
As these links show, the chimney and the bale handle are the differences between these two AC styles. There are at least two different configurations of the #120. One has no handle, one has a bale handle mounted on top. Both have the "nipple" shaped chimney cap. There is also a A/C #120X which is identical to the #120 other than the bale handle on this model being mounted at the rear.

The #120A , has the rear mounted handle and is one inch taller than the #120 style, as the result of the tier style chimney that matches the side lamps #104 and #104A.

As to which was used for the 1909 Model year, I'm not aware of reliable documentation that determines this. My guess is that the 1909 T used a number of tail lamps and side lamps of various models and by a number of manufacturers. Credible period photos of seemingly show 1909 Fords with lamps made by Atwood Castle, Castle, Brown, E&J, Gray Davis, and Indiana. My guess is Ford's massive demand for these parts left little room for nitpicking over model numbers for these lamps. The oil lamps had to mount on a "spade" style lamp bracket, had to be operable, and had to look decent...that was about it.

I asked these lamp questions of a known T historian some years back, and he thought the #120 was only A/C tail lamp that was used in 09. When pressed for rationale related to this assumption, he stated that he had seen this lamp on multiple early T's where he believed them to have been original to the car. While I respect this guy's assessment that these were original parts on these original cars, I can't help but wonder what other equipment he might have seen on the other 8000 09's that were built?

Regards,
Scott


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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Alex Dragone » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:24 pm

Scott, thanks so much for the explanation. I have an 09 with a #120A taillight with the handle on the back. Is it possible it could be original to the car?


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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Just my opinion Alex...I think so. I have an A/C #120, an A/C #120A, and a Castle Lamp #120A (almost identical to A/C #120). The A/C #120A is my favorite and it's the one I use on my 09 Touring. I have it set up as a working brake light (that later hardware can be fully removed as needed).
Regards,
Scott


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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:29 am

Would be great if there was more available data surrounding these early T parts suppliers. As per this thread, there appear to be bits and pieces of documentation related to the lamps, but no sustained historic resource. Sure would like to know why and when some of these various suppliers disappeared from the Model T stage, especially those who exited before things REALLY took off. A for instance, what reasons may have limited longer duration for lamp suppliers like Gray Davis, Indiana, Castle, and Atwood Castle. Gray Davis, E&J and Brown are known to have survived into the electric lamp phase, but little info as to what happened to the stock of prominent others.

Not a yes/no question here. Much appreciation for any/all input.

Regards,
Scott

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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by DanTreace » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:03 pm

Scott

That cause would undertake a bit of primary research, that could be done. Today many old media print sources and articles are on-line.

Likely Ford used many suppliers early on for reasons of keeping delivery going as his Ford was alway being built to clamoring sales.

Then, those supplies who could deliver on time, at lowest cost, won the day.

Tid bit on Indiana Lamp, as other gas -elec. lamp companies, the '29 depression must have done a lot of 'em in. :(


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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:30 pm

Hello Alex:
Curious what version of the Atwood Castle 120 you have. If not already aware, there are literally dozens of versions of this lamp, which were sold as not only Atwood Castle, but at a minimum also Castle Lamp Co. and Dietz Lamp Co.. These lamps all display the same basic construction with unique chimney, housing, and handle options. Some have a plain round housing back, where most have a concentric ring configuration. An option offered for these was a handle, where these lamps could be ordered with no handle, a teapot style handle, or a bale handle. I have 4 of these lamps that illustrate some of these variations. These findings accurate, I believe this was a tremendously popular product for the Atwood/Castle Co.

Not surprising that A/C made these lamps under the Castle Lamp Co. name, since Castle was a wholly owned subsidiary of Atwood Castle after 1908. Much more interesting is that Dietz sourced these lamps from A/C, where Dietz was by 1909, a huge industry competitor of A/C.

Regards,
Scott
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Re: Difference between Atwood Castle 120 and 120A taillight?

Post by HornsRus » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:50 pm

my 1911 overland mod 50 uses the mod 120-a taillight no baile.charley

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