It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

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James_Lyons-WV
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It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by James_Lyons-WV » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:43 pm

I realize that I am going to tied to the whipping post for this, but I really don't care. My subject line says it all. I believe that as a club, we should start encouraging "preservation" instead of restoration, when correct, original cars are discovered. Over the past few years, I have seen four, good, original brass cars have a grinder taken to them, and ruined through a complete restoration. One of them was a beautiful 1911 Cadillac Touring that was a fantastic original. While I like the look of a beautifully restored antique car as much as the next guy, I believe we've come to a point in history, where it has become paramount to preserve the correct, un-restored ones that are left for historical benefits. Now I admit, there are cars that need to be restored. But at this point in time, restoration should be the solution for cars that have been previously restored wrong, aging restorations, or cars that are just too far gone to do anything else. Cars that are missing major components clearly fall into the restoration category. And those that have been damaged surely need to be put back on their feet through restoration. But cars that are complete, with most or all of their original paint, and can be made serviceable in "as-is" condition through a thorough "preservation" process, should be saved by all means. I believe we are losing historical detail by the frequency with which we are so quick and eager to restore. Just my two cents.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Bob Solak » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:54 pm

I would go out on a limb and suggest that most members would agree with you IF we came across a true Rip Van Winkle car.

However, what are really the odds of that happening anymore? And I mean a completely untouched car that maybe needs a new set of tires and a once-over of the internals to get up and running?
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:55 pm

You're right, of course.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:05 pm

Several clubs have started a class for Historical Preservation. This is a step in the right direction. I have cringed to see some great cars fixed up beyond hope with metallic paint and overstuffed vinyl in the wrong pattern.
I haven't had many complete cars to choose from and built several from reject parts.
I share your hope.
Rich
When did I do that?

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by CudaMan » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:24 pm

If you want a car preserved instead of restored, buy it! :)
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by mtntee20 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:46 pm

The question as to "why" must be considered.

I believe preservation is important to the majority of this forum due to the fact most of us are older and understand the need. Consider the newest generation where the majority of them do not even want a driver's license. They have little to no interest in cars. Are these people going to ever come to appreciate Old vehicles when they do not care for Any vehicle today?

Another consideration should be as to what is more important to the Model T world (all aspects thereof). Is it better to have 1,000 cars on the street, running, and presenting themselves to the public. OR is it better to have 500 cars on the street and 500 originals either not being driven or presenting an "old piece of junk" image? While all of us on this forum would never call any T, a piece of junk, there are many who think that; if it doesn't shine, it's junk.

In the last few years, there are many of us who have seen many museums close due to lack of funds. Those funds come from visitors. This shows a waning interest for history. I'm afraid is also shows a big sign of the "dumbing down" of America. The uneducated are much easier to manage. Those doing the managing, are interested in the rewards of their management. I fail to see much, if any, interest in history in that scenario.

To sum this up, I believe it is a great treasure to find an original vehicle and maintain that vehicle for posterity. I also believe it is important to present our vehicles to the public, and ourselves, for enjoyment and enrichment of our lives. However we can fulfill those goals should be accomplished. If a person has the room, time, and money to secure an original, GREAT. If I only have enough room, time, and money for one or two old pieces that need restoration, GREAT. We need MORE vehicles in the public eye, ON the STREET to promote any interest possible.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:13 pm

I can walk both sides of the fence so to say, but it all comes down to the person who owns it and what their wishes are. I have advised others with respect to their cars vs cost of restoring. We just need to disagree with respect.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by REHelgeson » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:21 pm

I would submit to everyone there are very few Model T's that are anywhere close to original. The Rip Van Winkle T is one thing but a T that was possibly restored 50 or 60 years ago then left to deteriorate in a barn or shed is another. There also those T's who have been kept on the road by having their owners patch and piece them together. I've seen many a T that looked like it had been untouched only to notice upon closer inspection a whole host of parts from other year T's. I'm sure this was done to keep them running and on the road.


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by James_Lyons-WV » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:23 pm

Bob... Car's don't need to be the caliber of the Rip Van Winkle car. Although they do need to be in a condition that is serviceable. Right now, I am preserving a 1968 SS-396 Chevelle. The body is straight, but it has rust. The floors had to be replaced along with the trunk. The interior has some tears and the original paint is there, but shot. Nevertheless, there are so few numbers-matching 396 cars that are un-restored, that it was worth preserving instead of restoring. The same goes for Model T's. They can have rust, they can be missing paint and maybe need the wheels re-wooded. But if the majority of the car is good and original, I say leave it alone and preserve it.

Terry... I hear what you are saying. If there were still large numbers of un-restored original cars around where we had to choose of 500 should be driven and 500 not, then I'd say it needed deeper consideration. But we're long past the point where 50% of the surviving cars are un-restored. Right now, we're at the point where its' a very rare thing for an un-restored original car to be found. So in short, we're running out of undiscovered, original cars. That's why I say we need to put the brakes on. :D


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:44 pm

This thread will undoubtedly receive a lot of responses. A similar renaissance in interest in originality has run through the furniture collecting community and met it's inevitable demise...My dad used to buy beautiful antique furniture in the 1960's that had been made before, during, and just as our nation was born. He stripped off the old finish and slathered on polyurethane and was happy with the result. I on the otherhand would seek out furniture that still bore the finish applied by the hands that had probably been born prior to 1700. I always thought that was amazing that I could see and touch something that was just as presented by it's maker, when it's first Philadelphia owner originally purchased it. At the time, I paid a very substantial premium for the "original" article compared to what my dad's version was worth. Well, surprise-surprise, with the present generation valuing IKEA and pressed sawdust over history, both my dad's furniture and my furniture are worth about the same thing today...ZERO.

James, I share your vision of trying to preserve excellent examples of survivor cars, but alass, we may be preserving them for a generation that in general, doesn't give a rat's patootie. It's a very sad state of affairs.
Scott Conger

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by varmint » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:52 pm

Our model T did not deserve to be left to the elements for decades, nor does it deserve to get fixed (cannot use the word "restored").
I already got the photos this morning from the following item then opened this thread just now and don't have the money to make it a reality.
Here it is...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-Ford-Mode ... ctupt=true
Vern (Vieux Carre)


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by James_Lyons-WV » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:01 pm

You may be right, Scott....


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:06 pm

Vernon

now in my mind, that is a great car to restore. Parts appear to be solid, nothing left of the interior, nothing left on the paint, and nothing there that the original owner would recognize as ever having been their car...in otherwords, there is nothing original left other than the parts themselves...and with the exception that they are all there, still assembled as a "car", there is nothing there that could not be assembled from parts. With over 1/4 million of that year/model built, I wouldn't bat an eye at restoring that car, other than the fact that even with a solid basis to start from, it will cost 2x its final value to restore it...such is the lot in the life of a T collector!

Now, if it was an American Underslung, with faded paint and hardened leather seats, I'd find a place in my garage for it just as-is!
Scott Conger

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Russ T Fender » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:58 pm

While I prefer open cars, I bought my Centerdoor to save it from a restoration or worse. My wife hates it and wants me to restore it or sell it as she likes shiney restored cars. That ain't gonna happen! The only problem with the car is that I don't feel comfortable using it daily because of the exposed sheet metal and fragile interior. Other than getting the car running after 50+ years the only thing I have done to it is to seal the original top covering and replace a warped and leaking exhaust manifold.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by otrcman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:19 pm

Rich Eagle touched on an important aspect of this discussion, and I'd like to amplify on it.

For now, the only incentive to push an owner toward preserving rather than restoring is his own personal value system. That, and maybe some encouragement from his peers.

So we would need to provide some incentive to nudge people toward preservation. I would suggest that the Club incorporate, as Rich suggests, a Historical Preservation judging category. And if the Club agrees that Historical Preservation is a higher calling than ordinary restoration, then perhaps the very pinnacle of recognition in the awards hierarchy (the "Stynoski", so to speak) should be for a preserved car rather than a restored example.

Just thinking ......


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:41 pm

Dick

It would be nice if we could get Chris to set up a "Poll" thread to gauge interest in a "Preservation Class". I know I would like to see one and agree with your recommendation to create the class.
Scott Conger

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by CudaMan » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:44 pm

IMO, "Nudging" another owner to treat their own car the way you want it treated instead of the way they want is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE3TELJlsKU


I'll say it again, if you want someone else's car done your way, buy it! :)
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:09 pm

I have to agree cars that some are good enough to make safe to drive be kept as they were. Every thing done to the car over it's life is it's history. My Op is that does not mean it has to have inches of grime covering everything a good cleaning is good. Granted there are cars that are too far gone not to restore. The comments were/are not just about Fords. Just because a car is preserved does not mean it can't be safe to drive on the road. There are way to keep the exterior patina of the engine for example, but rebuild the insides. Oh hell, the truth is, the 1000 cars that were talked about, even if they were restored the 500 would still sit at home never driven. So what difference would it make if they were good examples of how they survived. The 48 below, you would not beleave how many people smile and wave when I drive it. All ages and girls too! :D
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by James_Lyons-WV » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:22 pm

Here's a "before and after" shot of the Chevelle I recently preserved. You take a car like this to the Saturday evening car show at the local ice cream joint, and EVERYONE gathers around it. The same happens with my un-restored 1915 Touring. Everyone wants to see how the factory put this screw in, or what kind of clip held that wire....
before
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by katmankingkat » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:25 pm

It's only original once.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by bobster1 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:55 pm

I'm with you Jimbo, if it is truly original, then by all means try to preserve it for others to use as a benchmark for the ones that do get restored. It is so hard to find a REAL un-restored car! BTW, you really know how to stir the pot!
Bob Richmon, 804-339-0584,bobveco@aol.com, 07' Model N, 1911 T Touring,1913 Overland, 1919 Paco Speedster :lol:


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James_Lyons-WV
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by James_Lyons-WV » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:22 pm

I'm a man of my convictions, Bob!!


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by StanHowe » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:42 pm

This one is going to be preserved pretty much as is. It should be in the shop fairly soon and will get a top, seat covers made from old bib overalls and blue jean legs, the panel below the trunk lid will be removed and a Hoover box built that will make a little pickup out of it. I have a set of cast tailgate irons that should rust up again after a little while in the rain and sun.

It will get a Ruckstell and probably some fresh glass. (AND a Stromberg OF, I like my T's to run right) It runs pretty well, it was overhauled by Eldon from White Sulphur Springs about 35 years ago, Irwin drove it home and put it in the shed and never drove it again is what I remember of it.

Original "I don't know what the color was called" paint on the body, OLD brush paint job on the fenders, wire wheels, new Allstate whitewalls from probably 40 years or more ago and it was up on jacks in a shed for at least 25 years, probably more.

For the top, I am planning to put a waterproof vinyl top and then cover that with an old green canvas tarp I've had for years and years. It is one of the old -- probably Army surplus -- ones that smells like paraffin every time the sun comes out. Not waterproof but I think it will look just right on here. I've been going to throw it in the dump for ten years but now I know why I was saving it.

Be a shame to paint it. Not for sale before my estate auction.

IMHO
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by babychadwick » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:03 pm

I recently purchased a Lincoln that I believe to be in very decent original condition. The paint is either a very old respray or original. The seats have been redone but the rest remains original. The engine has an issue of which the extent is unknown at this time. I admire the desire to retain originality but am faced with do I want a good useable car or something sitting in a museum? If someone had the same make and model restored and wanted to trade I would. That will never happen. So I will do what I feel is best and that is to retain as much of the originality as possible and make a good driver out of it. As has been said, if you want it kept untouched original buy it.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by JP_noonan » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:45 pm

I for one am a fan of both the restored, and the un-restored, as i find the beauty inherent in both. I doubt there's a lot of T restorations going on nowadays unless its a nice brass, and the owner is completely aware what the market will bear. I was lucky enough to fall upon an older restoration that just sat unused, but i completely agree about trying to keep the patina on a nice solid car. Like usual, it all comes down to the taste of the buyer. As others have said, thinking your car is close to original after 100 years is probably pure fantasy other than a few examples we have highlighted over the years. The way i look at it, buy the Model and the condition that is pleasing to you, by doing this, you are doing your part to keep the hobby alive, and yourself happy all in the same process.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by JP_noonan » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:19 am

This was my T up for auction about 1984, a pretty sad sack for sure. I can see the argument about keeping her the way she was, or restoring her to its previous glory, the last owner chose the latter. The door was missing when bought and replaced with another that has the wrong bottom hinge, but that doesn't bother me because, well , close enough for now, its all good. :D
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Tim Rogers » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:24 am

I enjoy both sides of the coin, however there is absolutely nothing that compares to the sight, smell and ambience of an original automobile- especially those from the 20s, 30s and 40s.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Russ T Fender » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:44 am

It's not a Ford but it is completely original and has served as the guide for restoration of other cars. There are details that just cannot be picked up from a picture. I have had restorers camp out in my garage for days while they documented every nut and bolt and diagramed the striping and other finishing details. If this car had been restored that would have been lost. The car has been gone through mechanically and runs well.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by RustyFords » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 am

I like both kinds, but the older I get, the more I like cars that show their history...as long as they have most of their paint and are servicable, running cars. I've never liked car museums. Cars should be driven.

My 24 Touring is a preservation car...sort of.

After spending a couple years pouring over every aspect of the car, I'm convinced the paint is all factory original. However, the forensic evidence also points to a decent fender bender that occurred 70+ years ago where the radiator shell and one front fender were replaced along with an aftermarket honeycomb radiator. This wreck/repair occurred so long ago that the repair parts were taken from a T that was also a solid original wearing original paint. The actual body panels (cowl, seat backs, etc) are so nice that they could probably be sold as NOS.

The combination is free of rot and free of surface rust. It has all kinds of dents, a bullet hole, and an accessory fender brace. But, it's NOT junky by any stretch. You can tell that this car was worked hard but cared for during its long work life. It was certainly parked inside or at least under an awning and the repairs made to it were made with what was available on the farm but were high quality repairs.

So...all that to say this...my car is not a factory unmolested preservation car, but it is something that I think should be preserved. It's a snapshot in time of an era when tough people were enduring tough times using Model T's that were well past their prime, but were the only thing they had and could afford. I've stabilized all the paint, re-wired the electrics, replaced a bunch of wood, rebuilt the rear end, and will have it running in a few months. I will not hang a million old pots, pans and other junk off of it and make a cartoon out of it. It deserves better than that.

And, I will not restore it. It deserves to be put back in running order and otherwise preserved. If this car had been found in the 70's or 80's it would've been taken apart and restored. And that would've been a tragedy.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by pdgriesse » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:43 am

Heres mine---Unrestored but only as "original" as previous owners kept it in running condition.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Jim_PTC_GA » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:44 am

Preservation was my goal when I rebuilt my dad's T. I have anouther one that preservation wasn't an option. It's a total rebuild. Dad's T I tried to keep it how he had it in high school and college. I dad add mirrors, and blinkers. The top and seats were a total rebuild, time wasn't kind to those.

That's dad adding water.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by James_Lyons-WV » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:27 pm

Val nailed it. When you take a grinder to it and restore the car, there are details that are lost to the ages. The red Chevelle i posted above is the second SS Chevelle like that, that I've had. I would take the previous car to shows and park it in a sea of restored Chevelle's and Camaro's. The un-restored cars are the ones that would draw the crowds because everyone wanted to see what it looked like "originally". It was a template by which to save the others. It makes sense to save the remaining un-restored Model T's that are left for the same reason.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:07 pm

There is some great wisdom here. It is good to think about how we like to see and enjoy these cars. Many times when we say what we like it sounds like telling others what they should do. And sometimes we are telling them what they should do. As others have said it is their choice and any effort working on cars is time well spent. Two hundred years from now the hobby will be quite different. I can't do much about it. I build my cars like I want. Some folks like them and some see a better way to do things.
What ever we do here I hope we can encourage others to at least enjoy the cars.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by AndyClary » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:25 pm

I notice the general trend on this forum is toward preservation. I am all for preserving good examples that have survived the ages. That said I really prefer a well restored car that is an example of what they looked like when new. Many of the "preservations" just want the look and are not necessarily original. Flame away, and before calling me a purist, nearly every part on my speedster is modified.

Andy

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by CudaMan » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:35 pm

Well put, Richard!

I like seeing "preserved" cars and applaud those who voluntarily go through the effort to preserve their own cars.

What rubs me the wrong way is the preservationists trying to force (nudge?) others to preserve rather than restore their own cars against their will.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Larry e rutt » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:18 pm

Nice... my thought finally confirmed.. I found this in a barn about 6 month ago. I have been casually looking for this car or one like it for 30 years.. I plan on repairing it to make it dependable but not restoring it. Especially not the paint. I like it as-is
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Marv K » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:31 pm

Nice car, Larry! It's YOURS! But, have to say, I am with Mark on this. The 'nudge', or 'strongly suggesting' to the point of belittling someone or their vehicle, is entering the "Shut the F-up!" territory. Until you OWN the vehicle, THEY can attach all the eyelashes and fox-tails THEY want! I can appreciate and respect their interpretations or wishes, but I/we have not walked in their shoes, either. Respect and enjoy THEIR efforts and ideas.... (While we also enjoy pursuit of our own.) Just enjoy living!

After all, this is about vehicles which might even exist beyond those 110 years of aged metal, glass, and rubber! We are individuals.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Ruxstel24 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:35 pm

I love to see the "untouched" history when it's able to be used again.
I'm of the mindset of whatever it takes to make the owner enjoy the hobby his or her way.
Nothing is really wrong (other than a Chevy V8 !) :twisted:
Unfortunately, finding an "untouched" T anymore is like finding a virgin in Akron... :?

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Marv K » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:42 pm

Are the rumors true that the "Fifteen Millionth Model T" has been repainted?????
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:43 pm

It's no rumor
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:50 pm

As much as I would like to I have never found a pristine original I could afford. Restoring one mechanically without changing the appearance would be difficult it seems. Where do you stop?
My choice has been to build my last two from the ground up using parts I have picked up not really worth restoring. This has resulted in reasonably sound cars. It is still difficult to keep things looking untouched. It has been in the back of my mind that some sort of purist would claim "It's not a real barn find, just a made up one."
No matter how we do things someone may find fault. That is their problem and I can live with it. Each way of doing things has it's own pitfalls. These discussions can bring some of these things to light and show some of the choices.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Marv K » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:56 pm

-Scott-
REPAINTED! Not a rumor??? Should I apologize now for my cynical sense of humor?
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Larry e rutt » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:40 pm

Sorry if I sounded nuggey .. I didn't read the thread I just read the heading and decided to get in on this one... here is what I repaired so far on the car..1. New tires 2.new radiator and hoses 3. Wiring harness.4. Oil cups on the shackles 5.fan belt and pulley. 6. Plugs 7.gas line and shut off 8.carburator float and heat plate ... I need window riser rollers and window felts. Then plan on running it.. I can't wait till spring.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:26 pm

I know that if I went to a car show and lets say there were 100 T's there, 80-90 were black era and restored and the 10-20 were well preserved originals, I know which cars I would spend time looking at! While I know the amount of work involved in the restoration, it would be the 10-20 I would spend time looking at and digesting what I was seeing.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by gla448 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:29 pm

hi this car is parts of at least 12 cars it is supposed to be a 25 roadster but the front of the body is from a25 touring bernie
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Hal » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:40 pm

I have both. I won't say the T and the TT are original, but it has been a LONG time since they had any cosmetic work done. I will say that when taking them to a car show, they get more attention than my restored Model A.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Bob McDaniel » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:18 pm

I know this one is not the best to preserve but how many unrestored 1913 Tourings have you seen lately ?
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Flathead » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:42 pm

I have an original unrestored tourer...obviously it's had work performed on it over the years prior to my custodianship of it [history], and I've undertaken some sympathetic work as well, ie rewiring, exhaust, etc. However, I am well aware of the deterioration that has occurred to it in the time I've used it...the original front mat has broken up, the interior especially is going downhill everytime I use it, so I tend to not use it as often as I should [destroying the originality]. Quite a dilemma; I bought it because it is so original, and was street legal, but everytime I use it the more I am ruining that feature.
It is too good to restore, but it really needs to be restored!
Nice as it is to have an original, unrestored vehicle, how does one maintain the originality? You need to use it; keep the oil and all parts circulating, but by doing so, the cosmetics are at very real risk of deterioration...100 year old fabrics are really past their 'best before date'.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by vwbusman66 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:48 pm

I have to agree with OP. While there are some cars with history that are well beyond the scope of preservation (degraded beyond help), even older restorations should be preserved instead of re-done. In other car markets, original cars are starting to become the choice for collectors. I know in the VW world, an original paint model will bring more money than a well-painted (but otherwise identical) model. Personally, I'm a fan of the saying "stock never goes out of style" and "its only original once".

I spent a whole summer stripping back a good bit of primer to reveal the original paint on my 1958 panel van. I'd like to think I only have 100 hours in the stripping process. It still isn't finished. I probably still need to put 200 more hours into buffing and stripping.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Tom D » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:56 pm

I find this topic interesting. I am not a fan of top end restorations for many reasons. My thoughts are probably more relevant to newer cars, like 50’s and 60’s as there are more of those in much better shape than Model T’s, but I will give it a go anyway. My thoughts below were originally for that class of cars, not Model T’s, but take it as you wish. First, I believe one of the reasons many nice cars are restored is because of shows. Although people talk a good line about originality, shows do not award them. And the “preservation” classes I see, are always lesser classes, not best of show. I obviously agree with most of what has already been said.

To me, a “restored” car is a questionable proposition. Let me use an example. I am not an art expert, but let us assume I have a Rembrandt and would like to “show” it. To make it score well, I first strip it down to the bare essentials. I sand away all the original, dirty, faded paint. I remove the worn canvas. I replace the wood frame. I polish and chrome the frame nails. I now replace the wood with new, using the freshly chromed nails, recover with fresh canvas, repaint the picture with new, vibrant, modern low emission paint, and – do I now have a master piece? I would think that most would say I ruined it. But that is what I believe we do to “show cars.” By the time restorers are done, we have replaced original paint sprayed on by vintage methods with modern paint sprayed on with modern methods. Any original finishes have been trashed and replaced with new. All upholstery, cloth, leather, carpets, etc., has been trashed and replaced with new non vintage items, installed by non vintage people. Body panels have often been replaced, and reinstalled by people not on the assembly line but by people who spend more time on fitting one panel than the OEM probably spent building the entire car. By the time some restorations are completed, about the only original item may be the serial number- not the actual data plate as that too is often replaced. How can one even call such a car a by its manufacturer’s name? It is a reproduction and should be called that, just like a reproduction Rembrandt should be called a reproduction Rembrandt. An original car, even if worn, should have more value than a reproduction that is winning top prizes. The originals should be the concourse cars, the reproductions should have a “side” class to be judged as what they are.

How should they be judged? I do not know. Some thoughts may be to judge them all together, but have points clearly favoring original, but not rewarding junk. Obviously a rust bucket, with rotted interior is not worthy. Maybe a factor should be considered for reproduction work. A new paint job, automatically deduct 25%. Thus an 80% condition original paint would out score a 100 % condition reproduction paint, but a 50% original would not out score a 95% reproduction. Same for chrome, interior, chassis, glass, etc. This would allow a great original to out score a great reproduction. After all, shouldn’t a best of show at a concourse actually be a made by the original OEM, not a restorer? And these are automobiles, so should they not be treated as automobiles? Should they not be DRIVEN? Why should a winning car be a car that has never been driven? Maybe for a car to even compete, it should be required to have at least 1000 miles on it. And be driven to the show, at least the last 20 miles- maybe even in the rain!

If not, we will continue to lose great original 80% cars and replace them with 95 – 100% reproductions that come with a trophy. Very sad.


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Mindless Automaton » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:13 am

I agree to preserving what is left.
My car is made from other people's cast offs that were deemed too far gone to restore. I got it to look like a original that'd lived through many changes. People ask when I'll restore it. Never I hope. I like it as it is.

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:23 am

It's what you make of it really. I give you a recent showing of the car series "Chop, Cut, Rebuild" where they restore a "68 Dodge Daytona. Literally they re-used 1 rocker panel and the VIN tag on the dash. ALL other parts were completely replaced and the "restored" car is accepted at shows as the actual car. I'm not a Beverly Hillbillies type car guy. I like 'em done and done right. Patina isn't for me BUT I look for cars with fair/good paint no matter how old it is.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by RustyFords » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:46 am

Tom D...you make some good points. Your comparison of old cars to old art brings up some interesting and valid points even if mechanical things are different than objects that are strictly art.

Even though I count myself a preservationist, I do like restored cars as well. My first car, a 1954 Ford tudor, is an example. I bought it as a high school kid in 1986. It had less than 11,000 miles on it and was wearing original everything...even the spare tire. I paid $900 for it, which my dad said was too much money. I drove that car like one would suspect a high school kid would. We piled kids in it, slid it around in farm fields, cruised in it on Saturday night and generally just used it as a car to drive to school, run errands, etc. My friends and I painted it with spray cans more than once and, out of carelessness, ripped the headliner and seat upholstery multiple times. By the time I left for the military, it was a mess and other than using it to drive away from my wedding 25 years ago, it spent many years in a barn with goats sometimes walking around on it.

Fast forward to several years ago. I dragged it out of the barn, pulled the body off the frame, rebuilt the front suspension, installed new springs, sandblasted and painted every part of the chassis and installed a new engine and transmisson. I then re-installed the body on the frame, re-wired the entire car and started bodywork. It'll get a first class paint job and interior soon.

Ideally, I'd like to have it back in its low mileage form and would preserve it if I could snap my fingers and make that happen. But this car needed to be restored. When it's done, it'll be something that I can (and will) hop in and drive cross country in comfort. But, like Tom said above, so much of it will be new and unrelated to the car I used in high school. It'll just be the frame, body and basic form that dates back to those days.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by ericmac » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:09 pm

Bob McDaniel wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:18 pm
I know this one is not the best to preserve but how many unrestored 1913 Tourings have you seen lately ?
I personally have only had the privilege of seeing one other...mine!
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Raoul von S. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:24 pm

Very good points, including those I might personally disagree with.

I come from a hobby start in the post-war car scene, and as others posted above,
it gets to a point where seeing an original car is a real gem, to be awed by and
cherished. I feel much more strongly about preserving or going to extraordinary
lengths to impeccably restore to "as built" those vehicles that are truly rare than
I do about those we see at any car show. I'd still always favor a preserved car over
restored, but some are more historically significant or outright rare.

When I first came into the hobby, it was all slanted toward slathering the cars
with options and making them so over-restored, they really did not reperesent any-
-thing besides some American Graffiti fantasy of what what the 50's were. Teenagers,
burger stands, and Elvis. Nowhere were there bankers, carpenters, or workaday
adults with real jobs, making real car payments, and listening to Nelson Riddle or
Tommy Dorsey. But a backlash that began against over-glammed billet hotrods has
trickled down to a more general appreciation of leaving cars "as found", warts and
all.

For this, I am thankful. I've always been about driving them, or to be more accurate,
seeing them going down the road, than parked and polished in neat rows at some car
show. But that is our collective history. Some still cling to the shiny-is-best paradigm.
Others like that barn fresh look. More and more seem to be drifting towards the latter
in the last 15 years, where 35 years ago, a well patinaed old car was just seen as
uncared for or outright junk.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by AndyClary » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:35 pm

While many of the post was cars are predominately show I don't think that is true of the Model T hobby. I've been on MTFCI tours where many really nice cars were judged on Sunday, yet toured all week. I'm probably in the minority but I'll say it, I really prefer a well restored car.

Andy


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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by ericmac » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:07 am

I like having and driving both. I have one that was very well restored and then toured like mad. We re-detailed it and eventually got an AACA Senior Grand National award, a class award at Meadowbrook etc. That being said, I can park it next to the original '13 an ac people walk right by it to admire the original car.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Rich Eagle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:13 am

That is the best of both worlds isn't it? Having a variety of T's of different condition does give a perspective of what different people like. I've found each type has it's own rewards.
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When did I do that?

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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Marv K » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:17 pm

It is possible to 'agree to disagree, without being disagreeable.' If it is YOURS, you can keep it, have it, display it, build it, share it, park it, drive it, use it..... As YOU WANT TO, whether I happen to like it or not. Please take note that my T's exist (HERE) first and foremost for MY OWN ENJOYMENT! If you or someone else wish to also enjoy them as they are, so be it.... You are welcome! However, understand even 'sheep' may have their own thoughts and ideas?!?!? Honest, open, forthright conversation and discussion hurts nobody, but just don't tell me what I'M SUPPOSED TO DO! Asking for advice, or to inject an opinion are different matters. Maintain the human respect of others... P.C. Police impositions often seem to conveniently ignore facts, while they're SHOUTING to impose their position upon others. ("Comply, or else!") Be honest and true to yourself first. OK. Respect and appreciate others. OK. Their opinions. OK. All fine and good. Tell it like it is, eliminate misunderstandings and accept the facts. All OK. Again, "It is possible to agree to disagree, without being disagreeable."

Perhaps, I STILL AM that independent farm kid I grew up as???? ("Happiness" IS living in a 'fly-over' State! And enjoying my 'T-Time', my way!)
It will be 'Miller Time' soon enough.... :!: :!: :D
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by ericmac » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:38 am

Rich Eagle wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:13 am
That is the best of both worlds isn't it? Having a variety of T's of different condition does give a perspective of what different people like. I've found each type has it's own rewards.
Rich
Yes it is. I also feel the same way about open vs. closed cars. Having both has its benefits. There have been days where I like to drive them all just to have different experiences.
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:51 pm

That could open a discussion of how many T's is right. I initially thought just one car would be perfect. I could lavish all my time polishing, tuning and maintaining it. Too late for that now. Variety is awfully nice.
Rich
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Re: It's time to STOP RESTORING, and START PRESERVING the remaining good original cars that are left...

Post by Bob McDaniel » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:46 pm

The best of both worlds for me is when I get this 12 restored or "over restored" and park it next to the unrestored 13 or drive them both.
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