My coupe, what year?

[tvw]

I have been enjoying my coupe in the beginning of winter months while the 22 touring stays pretty in the shop, fun to have a T to play year around
The previous owner's father resurrected the coupe from "a pile of junk" around the 80's, said it was a '17 but when he redid the wood with home brew mesquite from his Texas ranch he took the easy route and made the B pillar a non removable part of the body. When he went to register it in tx they said it was a '19 because of the body style and used the '20 motor serial number for the vin . So I title it in Colorado and the trooper states it's a 20 because of the motor number. Realizing all the things that have been done to this car over the years and the lack of a real vehicle identification number I find the whole year thing amusing but I am curious what year this body really started out as, although I have no plans to re wood the car at this time, the mesquite is functional and solid, glass is all newer safety and rolls up and down nicely.

[tvw]

A couple details to help with identification, the door hinges have been "modified", a couple of them appear to have been made out of house door hinges

[tvw]

more details

[tvw]

Aw dang, meant to post this in general, oops

[John kuehn]

Did the previous owners Father indicate if there was an engine with it when he got it or was the current engine already in it. Maybe the frame has some details that can help you determine what year and you may need to determine that to get accurate at all. But you did mention it was from “ a pile of junk” or whatever that means. I’ve got 2 built from parts but it’s a 19 Roadster and a 21 Touring and those parts are fairly common and really close to each other overall except the body itself. Plus I’ve got them pretty accurate up to 95%.
You may have to settle from the engine number what it is considering it’s been built up from parts. That’s the thing about Model T’s since they can be put together from this and that since lots of parts would fit or “sort of”!!!

[George House]

It could be a ‘17-‘21....when were suicide doors discontinued ? Any evidence of cowl lamp brackets ? If so, it’s a ‘17-‘18. Closed cars didn’t have cowl lamps; they were ‘electrified’. I’m not including those demountable rims. They were introduced in ‘19 but could’ve been changed out. Trunks were integral with the coupe body beginning in ‘24 and not demountable like yours. I hope this helps..

[Kevin Pharis]

Lots of good coupe details in this car wanted thread…

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28839&p=253151#p253151

(Could be the very specific car this fella is lookin for too)

[tvw]

Yes I have been following Walt's thread and understand his specific wants, that is where I got most of my limited knowledge about coupes. I'm also grinning ear to ear as I drive my well worn T around the gravel roads here and tinker on the old girl while Walt waits for perfection. Different goals tho.
Don't know how much emphasis to put on the "pile of junk" statement, builder is long gone now. Yes the wheels likely have been changed out. What I'm interested in is differences between 17 and 20. I don't see any evidence of cowl lamp brackets, no covered up holes or welds that I see. So those would have been on a 17-18 but not 19-20? good clue there! I have no reason to believe the frame is a different year than the body but it could be. What can I look for on the frame? I'm thinking that there would be differences in the door openings on the body and how the metal fits with the partially removable wood B pillar of the 17-18 vs the solid pillar of 19-20. It was 21 that the door went from opening suicide style to hinges on the A pillar right? Thanks everyone!

[George House]

Thanks for the come-back Jeff. The biggest difference between 17-20 for Closed Model Ts is crank starting (17-18) and starter motor/generator (19-20). Supposedly; when crank started, Ford supplied kerosene cowl and tail lamps. So, their absence allows me to guess your coupe is immediately after the brass radiator era or 17-18. If your coupe is not a later day hobbiest assembly T, check out the frame. If it has cast- or forged - running board supports, that would be correct for 17 through sometime in 19. I’m second owner of a 19 centerdoor and it has the earlier frame with 2 truss rods between the support pairs. If it has full length side to side stamped steel running board brackets, that would imply late 19-25. Glad you’re enjoying the drive !

[Walt Wise]

Check your email for a note from me and if not in your Inbox, look in your SPAM folder, which emails can go to when anyone is not one of your contacts.

[tvw]

"Supposedly; when crank started, Ford supplied kerosene cowl and tail lamps. So, their absence allows me to guess your coupe is immediately after the brass radiator era or 17-18."
I'm thinking you meant 19-20 because of the lack of cowl lamp brackets? Or am I reading that wrong.
I will check out the running board supports, thanks!

And thank you for the info Walt, some things to look into...

[John kuehn]

Jeff
You can use this website to find out more frame and chassis details. Go to resources then go to the old version of the encyclopedia and you will find the changing details over the years in Model T’s and it’s components.
Besides the frame check out the differences that occurred in the rear axle and parts. That changed along the way with the running board supports also. And as stated the u channel running board brackets would indicate the later frame. And hopefully it’s the frame that the car originally started with!
Most any questions about dating your Coupe can be found there.

[ModelT46]

The body seems to be a 1917 model. It had the removable piller. the chasis , wheels, motor could well be from another year.

[TRDxB2]

I have been enjoying my coupe in the beginning of winter months while the 22 touring stays pretty in the shop, fun to have a T to play year around
The previous owner's father resurrected the coupe from "a pile of junk" around the 80's, said it was a '17 but when he redid the wood with home brew mesquite from his Texas ranch he took the easy route and made the B pillar a non removable part of the body. When he went to register it in tx they said it was a '19 because of the body style and used the '20 motor serial number for the vin . So I title it in Colorado and the trooper states it's a 20 because of the motor number. Realizing all the things that have been done to this car over the years and the lack of a real vehicle identification number I find the whole year thing amusing but I am curious what year this body really started out as, although I have no plans to re wood the car at this time, the mesquite is functional and solid, glass is all newer safety and rolls up and down nicely.

I am always puzzled by the statement in the Model T Encyclopedia and why it is ignored. https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm
"The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car."
--
Also the engine serial number was only unique with Ford during the Model T era. The current VIN identification system is unique encoding, including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds, as defined by the International Organization for Standardization. So it is a global id not just one within a State or Country. Knowing all this you can ask the Trooper what if that engine number exists, but for a different vehicle, like a 1927 Dodge Brothers (it was unique within Dodge)
Note 1927 model T engine number 15,076,231 is 8 positions and the Ford format, see below, only allows 6 while the International Format allows 8

The bottom line - newly assigned VIN numbers are "smart" encoded numbers that some knowledgeable user of VIN codes can determine the Make, Model, Year etc of a vehicle. For the rest of the World's population it is just a unique identifier that can be used to LOOK UP all the detailed information about that vehicle. So a VIN of 15076231 by itself (no picture or physical car to look at) doesn't mean its a 1927 Ford Model T, that info is in the database
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Here is a link to the current VIN formatting used by the Ford Motor Company https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Vehicle_I ... /VIN_Codes