Metal firewalls

[Dennis_Brown]

When was the changeover to the metal firewall?
Then when was the tall metal firewall first used?
Will the short metal firewall interchange with the 1923 wood firewall or work as a pattern for a 23 wood firewall?
Thank you.

[Wayne Sheldon]

For all practical purposes, the steel firewall was first used for the 1923 model year. However, there were exceptions. Some late 1922s had steel firewalls, or so some say? Or, perhaps they were carryover 1922s that got the new firewalls. Some branch assembly plants continued producing the earlier models later than did other plants.
Quite a few early 1923 models originally had wooden firewalls. Most likely, there were a lot of them scattered through the factories to be used up.
The changeover to the larger firewall is a touchy subject for many model T fanatics. Others consider it very simple. 1923 models all had the earlier smaller firewall, and all 1924 models had the new larger "high hood" firewalls. The confusion comes from the fact that some body styles like the new coupe and two-door sedans began production early. So, is a coupe manufactured in June of 1923 a 1923 model? Or an early production 1924 model? That issue may never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Ford's own literature and policies don't seem to help significantly. Certainly, there is validity to both arguments.

[Wayne Sheldon]

As for the interchangeability of low steel and wooden firewalls? Some confusion when the steel firewalls were first being used, had the new firewalls available in the assembly plants, but NOT the firewall brackets designed to allow for the different offset from the bracket holes on the frame-rail sides. The brackets needed to allow for the difference in the firewall thickness! Ford's factory compensated for this problem by using radiator mounting/bolt "cups" as spacers between the earlier "forward mounting brackets and the thinner new rearward mounting firewall!
Unfortunately, too many people in the hobby when confronted with this anomaly, "corrected" the "error" by replacing the earlier brackets and spacer cups with the "correct" later brackets. A few early 1923 models do still exist with the "factory fix", as well as a few photographs which have been shared on this forum in years past.
Ford also recommended replacing damaged wooden firewalls with the new steel firewalls for years after. Some shops or customers would replace the brackets also for proper fit. Others would use spacers of some sort. Stacks of flat washers, large nuts, or even pieces of wood have been found on earlier model Ts that have had the wooden firewalls replaced.

New-old-stock low steel firewalls seem to be fairly common. Even I have one. I suspect the reason for this is that Ford pushed the dealers to stock them as replacements for damaged wooden firewalls, and a lot of them were never sold or installed.

As for using the steel firewall as a pattern for making a new wooden firewall? Maybe I shouldn't admit this? But I have done that for a couple cars. There are a couple minor adjustments that need to be made, especially around the carburetor mixture rod, to compensate for the lack of thickness. But it seems to work okay.

Good luck!

[Steve Jelf]

Bruce says the steel firewall was introduced in January 1923. Both steel and wood were used concurrently for a couple of months. By April all firewalls were steel. The taller steel firewall that belongs with the high radiator and hood arrived with the 1924 model year in August 1923. I can't vouch for the accuracy of any of this. I wasn't there.

The low and high steel firewalls are easily identified by the large wiring hole. On the low firewall (1923) it's under the terminal block. On the high firewall (24-25) it's above the block.

[TRDxB2]

Why does the part list shows 3634-H for 1917 - 1923. Note also the * for the bracket years.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Frank B asked "Why does the part list shows 3634-H for 1917 - 1923." Referring to the low steel firewall.
Ford considered the steel firewall to be a superior replacement, and an appropriate repair/replacement for a damaged wooden firewall. Ford was not trying to satisfy our judging standards today. Just keeping his cars running, and his customers happy.

[dykker5502]

Why does the part list shows 3634-H for 1917 - 1923. Note also the * for the bracket years.

My officielly 1922 but maybe 1920 Model T wich originally was a Touring but at some time in it's life got a danish build four door body, have a low steel firewall and that have made me wonder.
Either it have been a requirement in Denmark/Europe to have firewalls of steel OR it was exchanged with that 3634H when the 4 door body was made.
My officially 1921 Roadstar pick-up is the same. The body is a 1920 touring also with steel firewall also assempled in Copenhagen originally.

I really need to go to the Benson Ford archives to see what's in those boxes marked "Copenhagen".

[Norman Kling]

I have a T which I purchased at an estate sale in El Cajon Ca. The car is registered as a 22. It was said to have been "restored" in the 1960's. It has a low radiator and low cowl with a steel firewall. It has the straight windshield with the top half folding back into the car. It has an oval gas tank. Someone installed a 26-27 engine in the car. It had an older engine number on the registration when I bought it but the insurance policy showed the newer engine number. In order to get it transferred into my name we had the CHP inspect it and they verified the later engine number so that is now the number shown of the title.
Another member had a car which he called a 22. It had a one man top and high radiator on it and slant windshield.
Anyway, I have no idea whether my car came with a wood or steel firewall, however an excellent job was done on it and it has good body including the wood and a good top. It had Riverside tires on it when I bought it but they were very old. I kept the best one for a spare and put on modern Riverside tires. They look identical to the old tires but mine were made in Vietnam. This car also has the kerosene lamps on the cowl and tail light. The tail light is converted to electric.
Anyway, the reason I have given all this detail, is that there seems to be some overlap between 22 and 23 cars. perhaps some of the 23's were first sold in late 22 and were originally titled as 22 and some of the 22's were first sold in early 23 and titled as 23.
In some states cars were titled as date of first sale, and in others the model year. Sometime during the year the windshield and top were changed from 2 man to 1 man.
Anyway, I have no idea what firewall was on the car when new. It might have been a non starter engine, but maybe had the starter and the restorer liked the look. Maybe the starter was added when the 26-27 engine was installed.
It is hard to find out all the facts about a car unless one has a thread all the way from the original owner till now with all changes along the way noted.
Norm

[John kuehn]

Yes Ford wanted to keep his T running. After 20 years or less people would go to the salvage yards and find a low steel firewall to replace the rain soaked wood one on their car. They would get it to fit and go about their business because they needed the transportation to their job or whatever and not for the next car show. I had a 17 Touring going by all the indications it seemed to be that except it had a steel low firewall. A friend of mine found it in a field and I bought it for $25.00. That seemed to me that must have been what happened to it years ago when the T was in its last usable days.
I think the majority of T ‘s were used till they just worn out and the ones that were taken car of and left in a barn are getting scarce and getting hard to fine but it still happens.

[Norman Kling]

The T was getting to the point where it would have been traded for a new car or junked, right when the "great depression" started. People had no money to spend for a new car, or if they did have the money, were afraid to spend it for fear they would lose their jobs and so they kept the T's running for a long time. Then when WWII broke out, they were just coming out of the depression and new cars were not being manufactured for civilians, so they kept the Model T's going for another 4 years. Then you had to get on a waiting list to get a new car for about 3 more years so they kept them going longer. By then the old car clubs began to be formed and the hobby began.
That's why so many Model T's still exist today. Not only were they the highest selling car for years, but are easy for do it yourselfers to keep running.
Over those many years, many parts were exchanged and conversions were made, so very few cars are, "original" as found, but many are a combination of interchangeable parts from different years.
Norm

[Wayne Sheldon]

People do not realize how long a lot of model Ts were driven! When I was little (I have clear memories back to nearly the age of two 1954), and up until we moved from the rented house in the old part of San Jose California to the new house my parents bought (in 1959). There was an old man that drove his model T all around the old part of town. He was certainly a product of the depression, and made a few dollars buying and selling junk, scrap metal, and bottle deposits. I don't know if the model T was a touring car or runabout originally, but it had been converted to a pickup. I also clearly remember it having a straight windshield, so likely a 1917 through 1922. So, his model T had likely been used and driven for more than thirty years!
While his case may have been a bit extreme? There were probably a half million model Ts still on the road during World War 2.

When I was just getting into model Ts myself, I recall numerous discussions in the T clubs about the steel firewalls. There were so many 1917 through 1922 model Ts around with steel firewalls that a lot of people believed they had been built that way at the factory! I even recall seeing a 1915 with a steel firewall stuffed into the hood former! A lot of hobbyists then believed Ford began using the steel firewalls much earlier, and simply for some unknown reason randomly used both wood and steel firewalls throughout the late 1910s and early 1920s. It was only years later when the archives were opened up that the timeline was somewhat verified. And there still seems to be a bit much uncertainty about it.

All part of the model T's incredible story!

[TXGOAT2]

I remember my dad telling me that the Ts with wood firewalls would have failure at the point where the steering column attached to the firewall after being battered on bad roads and generally abused. In many cases, people kept driving them with the steering column wobbling around like clown cars.

[Steve Jelf]

...Ts with wood firewalls would have failure at the point where the steering column attached to the firewall after being battered on bad roads...

That's exactly why I'm making a new firewall for my 1915. One of the bolt holes at the steering column is completely wallowed out and another one is headed in that direction. I figure the current firewall is about fifty years old, so if the new one lasts until I'm 131 I'll be satisfied.

[dykker5502]

Steel firewalls for 1917 - 1923 was not something where people adapted a 1923 - 1925 steel firewall - it was a regular Ford sparepart! It COULD have been added later as the wooden firewalls broke down, but it's there in my original danish Ford Sparepart catalog of 1931 just 8 years after 1923. NO mention of using it in place of the wooden type, but then - the wooden firewall is not listed.

[TRDxB2]

Steel firewalls for 1917 - 1923 was not something where people adapted a 1923 - 1925 steel firewall - it was a regular Ford sparepart! It COULD have been added later as the wooden firewalls broke down, but it's there in my original danish Ford Sparepart catalog of 1931 just 8 years after 1923. NO mention of using it in place of the wooden type, but then - the wooden firewall is not listed.

So there are "Factory Originals", "Vintage Owner Originals". I prefer cars with character - Vintage Owner Originals that reflect the history of ownership like yours.