Would this water pump actually pump water?

[Arbs]

I pulled this water pump off of a T I recently purchased and I have a question. Given the design of this impeller, could it actually pump much water? I didn't expect the angle of the blades to be so parallel with the water flow. I'm not asking if water pumps are worth it as that has been rehashed many times. I'm just curious if this one would even work.

[TXGOAT2]

It would move some water, at least at higher speeds. Is the impeller as designed, or has it been repaired? From what I've seen, the T accessory pumps were not designed to be high volume pumps. The small diameter of the impellers, and inefficient volute design would only give a gentle flow. That was all that was needed or desired in a system with no thermostat, no pressure cap, and capable of operating on thermosyphon. A high volume pump would consume more power and would force water out the overflow pipe at higher speeds. A high volume, rope packed pump would also tend to suck air in at the shaft seal at higher speeds. A pump with excess volume capability works well in a thermostat regulated system with a pressure cap. The thermostat provides restriction, even when fully opened, and that choking effect throttles the pump at higher speeds, which provides some overpressure in the block and head while limiting the pump's power demand. The Model A pump is also intentionally limited as to volume, and another reason, in addition to those above, for soing so on the Model A setup is to prevent the pump from developing lower pressure in the block and head, which is the last thing you want to do.

[Scott_Conger]

It would very likely move water just fine. Those blades are tangent to the inlet (inclined) and square to the outlet.

I pull the waterpump off of every T I work on. Then after 1/2 of those T's promptly overheat, I put them back on. In those cases, they are a cheap alternative to a $1100 radiator. The remainder...who knows why they were put on?

On this forum, if you got $1 from every person that says they are a "Band-Aid" and somehow should be ashamed for having one, you'd have the money for a new radiator (but don't hold your breath on them paying up).

They can be prone to leaks, but if you wish to solve that issue, feel free to contact me via email and I will be happy to tell you how.

[TXGOAT2]

I believe that at least some pumps were advertised as being useful to prevent radiator freeze up in colder weather by preventing the lower radiator tubes from freezing while driving, and to assure mixing of anti- freeze solutions. I'm sure many were used when a radiator repair was what was needed. Many others probably were used in hot weather states to prevent boilover and many likely were put on trucks in congested city service, or other heavy duty service, in hot regions. Some were probably used in conjunction with hot water type car heaters. While they are not needed under normal conditions on Ts that are in good condition, they do have their uses.

[TXGOAT2]

At one time, Ford sold a lead foil type of packing for the Model A water pump. That probably worked well if the shaft and bearings were in good shape. Water pump grease in the cooling system probably plugged a number of radiators with a mix of grease, packing lint, and rust. In other cases, excess grease in the cooling system may have prevented heavy corrosion.

[Arbs]

Is the impeller as designed, or has it been repaired?

This is the first time I've seen this impeller, so I don't know if it has ever been repaired. I pulled it because it was leaking badly, running or not.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Is the impeller as designed, or has it been repaired?

This is the first time I've seen this impeller, so I don't know if it has ever been repaired. I pulled it because it was leaking badly, running or not.

It appears to have been broken and brazed back together. Also, seems to have an oversized bolt to lock it to the shaft.

[JTT3]

……………………….

[TXGOAT2]

A great many old pumps have worn or damaged shafts in the seal contact area. The accuracy and type of surface finish at the point where the seal contacts the shaft has to be right or the pump will need to have the packing adjusted very frequently and replaced often. Loose bearings will also assure poor results and the need for frequent adjustment. Debris in the coolant will cause issues with any kind of water pump. "Water pump grease" used to be widely available. As I recall, It was a yellowish, waxy grease. A pump would probably give the best service if the impeller was of a uniform shape and well-balanced. A T water pump might reach 3,000 RPM or more at high engine speeds.

[Pep C Strebeck]

Is the impeller as designed, or has it been repaired?

This is the first time I've seen this impeller, so I don't know if it has ever been repaired. I pulled it because it was leaking badly, running or not.

It appears to have been broken and brazed back together. Also, seems to have an oversized bolt to lock it to the shaft.

I think that there is also a set screw to hold the bolt in place. It seems like a lot happened in that small space.

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[TRDxB2]

I have yet to see a fan pulley style Model T water pump that was able to pump coolant any faster than the thermosyphoning action of system provides to it, since the system is not pressurized. The design of this water pump uses the impeller to lift the coolant rather than to push it.

A simple test would be to spin the water pump pulley by some external means to see if could elevate coolant out the water neck hose at the top of the engine on its own. Its been estimated that the water jackets and hoses hold about 1.25 gallons or about 10lbs. So looking the pictures below does it look like that impeller can move coolant, lift/push 10lbs, faster than whats being delivered to it?

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[TXGOAT2]

The pump doesn't have to actually lift the water if the system is properly filled. It simply helps move the water. The pump's suction head and discharge head are very close to equal, as the diagram above shows. The maximum thermosyphon pressure differential is very low at best, yet it is sufficient under most circumstances, assuming the system is clean and the ambient air temperature is moderate and airflow volume through the radiator is sufficient to develop a good thermal differential in the system, from which proceeds the pressure differential that moves the coolant through the system. The accessory T water pumps do not replace the thermosyphon function, they only augment it. The Model A and early V8s had the water pumps in the cylinder head, which is a fundamentally poor design. Ford eventually corrected that flawed design by designing the water pump(s) to move cooled water from the radiator outlet(s) into the lower water jacket, which is how the accessory T pumps are arranged. A stock T system would not tolerate much pressure from a pump, since boosting the water flow by very much would stack water up in the radiator upper tank, where it would be dumped out the overflow. A restricted radiator would aggravate the tendency for a pump to overflow the radiator upper tank, however, the weak suction of the pump at the lower radiator outlet would tend to offset that effect in both cases.

[JTT3]

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[TXGOAT2]

There is no lift. The system, onced filled, is balanced. The thermosyphon system alone would be incapable of providing any significant lift, were any lift required. The thermosyphon effect causes the water to flow (gently) by unbalancing the system's hydrostatic balance due the natural expansion of heated water. Heated water weighs less than cooler water, and so the cooler water from the lower raidator tank pushes the hotter water out of the water jacket and into the upper radiator tank. The (centrifugal) pump, if present, provides circulation, or aids it, by physically pushing the water using mechancial energy taken form the fan belt. It does not depend on a temperature differential to move the water. It will move water whenever the engine is operating, regardless of the temperature differential, if any, within the system.

[JTT3]

…,..,,………….

[Art M]

I am going to get some of these heat transfer.and thermo books to fully understand this phenomenon. But probably the heat from burning them would give me more value.

Art Mirtes
.
..

[J1MGOLDEN]

Then you have to ask if the water pump impellers actually block the current flow and slow down the water transfer to let the water linger in the radiator longer to remove more heat.

That is just another possible argument and theory.

I always buy a new radiator and toss the water pump in the trash.

[TWrenn]

Then you have to ask if the water pump impellers actually block the current flow and slow down the water transfer to let the water linger in the radiator longer to remove more heat.

That is just another possible argument and theory.

I always buy a new radiator and toss the water pump in the trash.

I'm with you Jim!

[TXGOAT2]

The thermosyphon system circulates water by reason of the DENSITY DIFFERENTIAL between hot water in the engine water jacket and cooler water in the radiator. It's pretty damned simple. A water pump pushes the water by applying mechanical force to it. In an automotive cooling system, within broad limits, it doesn't matter how rapidly the water moves through the system as far as heat dissipation is concerned. If the water flows more rapidly, it will make more trips through the radiator in any given period of time and thus gets rid of the same amount of heat. Some turbulence in the coolant flow is desireable in that it enhances heat transfer from the hot engine surfaces to the coolant, and vice-versa. Where people get into trouble with "how fast the water goes through the radiator" is when they remove the thermostat on later model vehicles with a high volume water pump. (Particularly on early, low pressure flathead Ford V8 systems) This can cause cavitation on the suction side of the pump at higher engine speeds, and it will lower the pressure in the block and heads, thus encouraging the formation of steam bubbles, and may draw in air at the water pump seal. If the radiator is restricted, it may push water out the overflow at higher engine speeds. In some cases the lower radiator hoses may collapse, which aggravates all of the above. Neither the thermosyphon system, such as used in the Model T, or the pump system, as used on later models, depends on the pump to lift water. A thermosyphon system will not circulate any water at all unless the upper radiator tank is properly filled. A pump system with a typical, low mounted pump can circulate some water if the upper tank is not filled, but you're heading for trouble running a system that way. The Model A and early Ford V8 pump systems were handicapped by reason of having the water pump(s) mounted in the cylinder heads, which is just all wrong. They are less tolerant of low coolant levels than systems with a low mounted pump, among other shortcomings. On the plus side, these systems retain some cooling capacity if the fan belt fails, due to thermosyphon effect. That's not true with most later model systems for a number of reasons. All things considered, the pump/thermostat/pressure cap systems are best by far, and far more versatile and efficient. Some stationary engines used a hopper system, basically an open tank surrounding the cylinder, or a geyser system, where an external tank was used. Circulation in the latter case commenced when the water in the engine jacket began to boil, which would allow some water to spew over into the tank, which caused some cool water from the tank to enter the water jacket via a lower pipe connection. No thermosyphon effect was possible with either of these systems.

[JTT3]

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[TXGOAT2]

I've run a T at 45 MPH in 105 + F weather for miles on end with no overheating. No overheating, no afterboil, no water pump. No fan is needed as long as you keep moving, though I do use one, which allows idling the engine in hot, still weather.

[RajoRacer]

A "water pump" on a Model T is a bit of a misnomer isn't it, as being a non-pressurized system, it's more of just a "water circulator" ?

[TXGOAT2]

It is a pump. It meets any rational definition of a pump. It makes no difference whether a pump is used in a closed, pressurized system or an atmospheric system, it remains a pump.

[RajoRacer]

Boy oh Boy - sure glad I asked - you have an answer for EVERY subject Pat !

[TXGOAT2]

Mean old women taught me to read.

[Norman Kling]

It does matter how fast the water moves through the radiator. If you use a pump you also need a thermostat. The best use of the thermostat is with a bypass which allows some water to pass when the engine is cold and then fully open thermostat when it is hot. Without a thermostat, the water will circulate with the speed of the pump which will be very fast at higher speeds. This system is not very good in cold weather without the thermostat. When I got my first T it came with a water pump but no thermostat. We drove in the winter in the mountains of San Diego county where there was snow on the ground. We stopped for a break and the members were standing in front of their T's to warm up from the radiator. Mine was completely cold even after driving about 30 miles uphill. Took off the pump later and no problem, even in hot weather going uphill.
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

"The best use of the thermostat is with a bypass which allows some water to pass when the engine is cold and then fully open thermostat when it is hot."

I agree on having some bypass. Fast water circulation will not cause overheating. It can result in oovercooling, as explained above.

A thermostat is needed with a T system that uses a water pump to prevent overcooling, and perhaps other issues. Some means for coolant to bypass the closed thermostat, such as a 1/8" hole drilled in the valve plate, is a good idea. Having a bypass will assure hot water reaches the thermostat in a timely manner, and will prevent hot spots developing around exhaust valve ports during warmup.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

A thermostat is needed with a T system that uses a water pump to prevent overcooling, and perhaps other issues.

Four Model T's & four water pumps & zero thermostats & no "overcooling" or "other issues".

[Scott_Conger]

Jerry

Years ago when I was in the Aerospace industry, several hot-shots were struggling to perfect a force-reflectance fly by wire controller for the V-22. I was not officially assigned to that portion of the project and my suggestions were dismissed summarily. Months of failure ensued. I worked for several weeks in my lab on my solution to their problem and finally while they were in a conference room explaining to Boeing why our company was late on our project, I was demonstrating success to my boss, down in the lab.

When those hot-shots asked how I knew it would work before I started, I simply explained that they were not there to tell me it wouldn't.

isn't it amazing the success you can experience when you don't know any better?

[Craig Leach]

Hi Dan,
Not asking to rehash a topic does not work.
If you can stop the leaks yes the pump/water circulator will work.
And if you are at a T gathering and looking for conversation just open the hood & you will get all the conversation you can stand.
Craig.

[TXGOAT2]

Model T's running 180F + in Michigan, with water pumps and no thermostat? A miracle!
Note: A "winterfront" is actually a kind of thermostat.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Model T's running 180F + in Michigan, with water pumps and no thermostat? A miracle!
Note: A "winterfront" is actually a kind of thermostat.

So be it. Call the Vatican! The one has been running that way since 1940.

[Been Here Before]

A letter was found in the back of a ledger from the Ford Company dated 1908 1 April.

" As I write this for future historians I want to say history is bunk. To offer proof, at the end of production number 2500, I will be introducing a system for cooling the motor called "Thermo-syphon." I am removing the water pump, this should create quite a discussion for the future whippersnappers." Henry Ford.

[David Greenlees]

To answer the original question yes, it would. A duplicate of this pump has been on a fairly heavy 1924 Depot Hack with an original body and an original black high radiator that has been in our family for 65+ years. It keeps it cool here climbing the Vermont hills and mountains and never boils. It tried it once with the thermo-syphon system, but because the original 98 year old radiator doesn't transfer heat all that well it overheated fairly often without it.

[TXGOAT2]

Using a water pump without a thermostat defeats the several advantages of the thermosyphon system.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Using a water pump without a thermostat defeats the several advantages of the thermosyphon system.

Good! Mission accomplished! Get over it!

[TXGOAT2]

In times past, alcohol was often used as anti-freeze. One issue with alcohol antifreeze is that at normal engine temperatures, it boils away fairly rapidly, leaving the system with reduced freeze protection. One way deal with to deal with the problem was to use a water pump and a low temperature thermostat (140 F). This kept the engine well below normal operating temperature in freezing weather, which preserved the antifreeze, while introducing a host of other issues, such as poor fuel economy, crankcase sludging, water accumulating in the crankcase, carbon deposition, and increased liklihood of fouled spark plugs and carburetor icing. But it did save on antifreeze and probably prevented many overnight freeze ups, and helped prevent on the road freezeups due to weak antifreeze. Very frequent oil changes could offset some overcooling issues. The best course was to use glycol antifreeze and either the standard Ford thermosyphon, or a water pump and 180 F thermostat. In extreme cold, a winterfront device was a good thing to have.

[Arbs]

FWIW I removed the top coolant outlet today. There was no thermostat.

[TXGOAT2]

There may be one stuffed in the upper radiator hose.

[Arbs]

There may be one stuffed in the upper radiator hose.

Nope. None there, and the old top radiator hose is now part of my flush-o-matic 2000...

[babychadwick]

I wonder if the Ford system worked so well why were there so many manufactures of aftermarket water pumps? If a pump doesn't work without a thermostat then what would the point be producing one especially considering the radiators of the time were new or cheap to repair . . .

[TXGOAT2]

A pump will work with no thermostat. In fact, under some conditions, such as winter weather, a pump on a Model T may work too well when no thermostat is used.

Ford Motor Company insisted that the Model T engine performed most efficiently and economically with the water temperature just short of boiling, that is, around 190F to 200 F.

In heavy duty service, and/or under extreme weather conditions, an accessory water pump can be of use in keeping the Model T engine temperature within the Ford-recommended range. As discussed above, and in other venues, a water pump on a T can be useful in preventing radiator freeze-up in cold weather operation, and can be used to prevent problems related to alcohol antifreeze evaporating rapidly. They are a useful accessory in some situations when installed and used properly. They are not necessary under ordinary circumstances on a Model T in good operating condition that is properly handled by the driver. A thermostat is not needed with the Ford thermosyphon system due to the self-regulating property of the system. A T system with an accessory pump added loses the self-regulating property, and thus a thermostat is called for to regulate the cooling system so as to maintain proper engine temperature. I don't think new radiators were ever cheap in real money.

[Dan Haynes]

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[Tim Rogers]

Original poster- "I'm not asking if water pumps are worth it as that has been rehashed many times."

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[rickg]

When i bought my 26 coupe it had a water pump and a two row radiator there was a dealer letter recommending water pumps be used with these radiators, i think that is one reason that there were so many water pumps, i removed the pump and the radiator wouldn't cool so i installed a new Brassworks, this was in 2004.

Rick

[Arbs]

This is the first time I've seen this impeller, so I don't know if it has ever been repaired. I pulled it because it was leaking badly, running or not.

It appears to have been broken and brazed back together. Also, seems to have an oversized bolt to lock it to the shaft.

I think that there is also a set screw to hold the bolt in place. It seems like a lot happened in that small space.


pump1.jpg

While twiddling my thumbs waiting for an order from Langs, I started to clean this pump up and confirmed that there is no set screw holding the bolt. It was an oxidation and sediment formation. The bearings seems sound, with no play in them. This may be a rainy day rebuild project.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Dan,
I'm impressed getting the bolt out is usually when I break the impeller. It looks like you have the shaft out. If it is smooth and tight you can
probably repack it with new, clean repaint, and use. ( At your discretion) Keep in mind the packing stuffing nut is also a bushing, also remove
all the old packing.
Craig.