U & J owners ... adjustment question

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Mark Osterman
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U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:05 pm

I am enjoying the U&J carburetor recently rebuilt by Stan. Love the 0-30 mph range. The only fault I have experienced is in the upper end. Seems to sputter when I’m in the 35-40 mph range. Took a drive out in the country for extended periods today and never felt like the car was ever able to run smoothly while cruising at 35-40. Is there some trick to adjusting it? I’m running with Brents rebuilt coils and a vintage New Day timer in good condition.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Adam » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:29 pm

Could be a timer or coil issue.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:49 pm

I suspect that you simply may not have enough fuel flowing to keep up with your U&J carb. They are not known for fuel efficiency because they are kind of a zoom zoom carb and that is why you notice the improved performance on the lower end. Try a little bit larger fuel line. If you have a fuel filter that can starve the zoom zoom carbs like the U&J and S4BF Zenith at higher lugging speeds. These are my opinions and I am no expert, just thoughts. Mike


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:55 pm

Another thought Mark. Any chance your carb is icing up? Living in Iowa with high humidity and running without a heat stove can ice up a carb. This can be hard to detect and prove because when you pull over to check it out it usually thaws the icing before you can see it. It will idle nice and will start coughing and sneezing at speed again. A carb heat stove cures it well in my experience.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:10 pm

Mike. Yes, that sounds like something to try. Right now I have a modern steel gas line that’s 1/4” I believe. Maybe if I can get something a little wider it might deliver more gas faster. I don’t have any additional filter on the line.

I don’t think it’s coil or timer related since I ran a straight through NH and an OF with no problems with the same set up.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:16 pm

My money is on the stock small bore fuel line. Going to 5/16 just might fix the issue. I know Dean Yoder uses 5/16 with great success. Mike


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:39 pm

Will 5/16” fit the carb and gas tank compression fittings? Where is it sold? Is it actually modern steel gas line stock? I did read earlier threads that suggest larger diameter lines have no effect on fuel delivery since it’s based on the inlet valve on the float. But on the other hand I’ve read where others suggest it’s the key to success with similar problems that I’ve had.

in an earlier post you asked about icing. I haven’t seen or felt any icing on this carburetor or intake manifold.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by D Stroud » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:43 pm

I just read on here the other day about using a 5/16" copper nickel brake line, I hadn't heard of them before. It doesn't rust or corrode and is easily bent without tubing benders. O Rielly's has them in many sizes and lengths. According to their website, a 74", 5/16" line is $16.99, pretty reasonable in my book.
After I measure for sure what I need, I'm going to pick one up the next I'm down there. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by StanHowe » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:08 pm

It is possible the needle and seat are not flowing enough fuel for higher speeds.
I don't remember when I did that u and J but I have changed the size of the hole to a larger diameter on the last ones I've done.
I modify the seat to accept a viton tipped needle by installing a liner in the original seat and the hole may not flow enough fuel.
Also, they are a single adjustment carb and you may have to open the adjustment a little more so it is a little rich at lower speeds in order to have fuel for higher speeds.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by StanHowe » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:26 pm

Got interrupted. Let me know how it is working for you.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by StanHowe » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Your needle and seat should be fine. It is the newer larger one.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:05 pm

I have been adjusting the needle and then driving. If I open it a little the it effects the low end acceleration. I’ll try some more to find a sweet spot. Will also try the larger tubing. Bought the 5/16 this afternoon. Now .. how do you get a 5/16 tube in a 1/4 gas tank potato and carburetor elbow fitting?


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:15 am

Ok . here is some good news. I bought some 5/16 steel brake tubing to replace the 1/4” gas line.
But before converting all the fittings to install that I decided to see if a little carburetor float adjusting might make a difference.

So I removed the bowl and changed the interface very little. After a test drive there was a noticeable difference in the 30-40 range. Hard to go fast for sustained driving in the city and need to do a country drive for a real test. But it was improved.

Then I tweaked the needle underneath the carburetor by opening it a very little and did another test drive .. and what a difference. The acceleration in low gear was improved as was the higher speeds and hill climbing.

It’s funny. I had heard these consumed gas quickly and that had not been my experience. Now that more gas is getting to the carburetor that will change I’m guessing.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by rickg » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:16 pm

This is interesting information, I have four U&J Carbs that were built by Stan, because of a knee issue, knee replacement and three additional surgeries I have been down for all of 18 and most of this year, I did get the engine back together, I removed a new Stipe .250 cam and installed a .280, I wanted to see the difference,i also have a Z head. it will be good to get this back together and go drive it.

Rick


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:55 pm

Been driving around with the U&J and it’s been better, but I still have some throttle movement on the upper end that should give me a little more. Tonight I finally got around to installing a 5/16” steel gas line by reaming the opening on the inlet elbow on the carb and the opening on the stock gas sediment bowl (potato). This was a more elegant solution than using lots of modern fittings to convert from 1/4” to 5/16.” So, it looks stock ... just a little thicker.

I drove around for about an hour to give it a good test. Seems pretty much the same, maybe just a little better. However while the engine was hot I was playing around with the choke. Pulling it very slightly gave me an increase in rpms. Holding it out at the same place while pulling down on the throttle gave very smooth powerful uninterrupted acceleration. So, it looks like I still need a little more fuel. Thinking I either need to open the needle adjustment on the bottom of the carburetor a little bit more ... or install a remote choke control on the steering column as used for the OF and other speedy carburetors. I saw that Stan had a reproduction dashboard choke for the U&J. Not sure if this is just for starting and initial warm up or for actually running richer while driving. Fun to play with this stuff.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:40 am

Just saw what I wrote last night and realized that it’s not really a good thing to increase fuel for driving by use of the choke. So, those remote choke controls must really be for initial warm up with some carburetors.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:45 am

Looks like the only way I could get enough gas for this carburetor was by using the choke. But when I pulled the plugs they looked like I’d been running lean. So I wondered about a possible intake leak in the manifold gasket. I pulled the manifolds, cleaned them up and reinstalled them with new gaskets. I had a very difficult time starting. Got it running on number one and two cylinder only. Thought the manifolds were not tight enough and stripped the threads on one of the manifold clamp nuts/studs.

Took off the manifolds again and saw the gaskets were not compressed enough and one of the steel glands was mangled. So, checked the exhaust manifold and found it warped. Interesting as I’ve been able to get it tight in the past. Guess it was when I first installed this carb that it wasn’t quite right. No wonder I had a difficult time getting it sealed. So am thinking this might have been the cause of insufficient fuel to feed that carburetor. Ordering a new manifold today. Anxious to see what I discover with better vacuum in the intake. An interesting series of events.
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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:49 pm

I just went through about the same thing, just an exhaust leak, but about the same thing on the center ports upon reassembly. My manifold is pretty darn straight however.
I used the old steel rings the second time and all seems good.

If you're still lean Mark, after the manifold gaskets. I wonder if you can drill out the main jet slightly. Back in the day there were little drill bits for just this purpose.
Google "carb jet drill bit set".


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:27 pm

The carburetor was rebuilt by Stan. He has done a lot of these and I sent it to him because it’s one of his specialties. So I’m assuming the problem is something on my end. When I had to jump through hoops to feed it enough fuel .. and then discovered the warped manifold I have assumed this was the root of the problem. I’ll fix that .. and if there is no improvement I’ll ask him about the jet modification.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Bruce Compton » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:23 pm

Mark; Can you post a picture of your U&J float? I believe that it may be too deep (thick) and if it is, the needle valve will seat and shut off the fuel before the correct fuel level is achieved. The reason I'm thinking this is because I rebuilt an excellent U&J but had to replace the float (old one was missing) and I used Don Lang's aftermarket float material and guessed at the correct size. I was able to run the carb and although it idled better than any other carb I have tried, it did the same thing as yours, being "leanish" at higher speeds. Last weekend at Stowe I found another nice U&J and it had a pretty nice original float that is about half as thick as the one I built. With everything else being equal, and both floats set parallel with the body, the slimmer float will allow a much higher fuel level. The one I made is about 3/4" thick and the nice original one is more like 3/8" thick. In any case running with the choke pulled out even a little is not the answer and as well is actually defeating the purpose of the "zoom-zoom" U&J by restricting the breathing.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:27 am

Next time I shut down the T I’ll remove the bowl and take out the float. This is the one Stan made for this carburetor since what I gave him was only the upper U&J casting and a replacement bowl to retrofit. He hasn’t really weighed in on what’s going on with this carb so I was assuming it is normal. I’m still driving the car with the choke closed halfway once warmed up.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Bruce Compton » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 am

If Stan made the float, I can only assume it's correct. I'm sure though that the one I made is too thick. I intend to shave it down probably next week and try it again.Testing this carb on my car is a real pain as it has the original engine pans so adjusting the valve is almost impossible unless you take the whole carb off, or put the car on the hoist and work through the hole in the engine pan.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Bruce Compton » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:17 pm

Mark; Have you had a chance to check the float yet?


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:03 pm

No, though I did fiddle with it’s level when I started on this project. I have yet to install an inline fuel filter as Stan suggests. When I get around to that I’ll take some pictures of the float.

Right now I have a handle on how to start .. warm
up and drive with the carb using the remote choke adjuster.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by StanHowe » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:12 pm

Well, I just spent about ten minutes typing a reply but it appears it didn't post. So I will try again later.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:28 pm

Carb is running fine Stan. I assume you’ve already read my posts and how I got enough fuel in there to satisfy its thirst. I’d say don’t invest too much of your time responding unless you have another / better method. Sorry you had trouble posting.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Bruce Compton » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:17 pm

That's great Mark. What did you end up doing to avoid having to run with the choke half on? I'm doing up two of them right now and could use the knowledge gained. I've already thinned down the first float and built a second one to match it although I haven't ran either carb since. Bruce


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:30 pm

Bruce, No ... it’s operating with the choke control pulled out a little and that’s where it runs best. The spark plugs look good so not too much gas or too little. I was hoping I wouldn't need to run it this way but after reading sbout these choke controls ... some carburetors used them in exactly the same way with no trouble. The only other option would be for someone more skilled than me to refigure the jet opening I suspect, but Stan sent it to me this way and it is one of his specialties so I assume it is what it is. Interesting that evidently mine works differently that all the others he’s rebuilt, but it took him a year and a half to get to this and he wasn’t thrilled to work on it. He finally got it put together pretty quickly to get me out of the way. 😀


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Bruce Compton » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:14 pm

Mark : I would be the last guy to question Stan's work, so there must be something else wrong. If you need the choke even partially closed after the motor warms up, obviously the mix is too lean. You have addressed the fuel line, the needle and seat, and the float level so the only thing that will lean the mixture is air entering somewhere else, probably after the carb and before the intake ports. This leaves the carb/intake mounting surface, an air leak in the manifold itself (plug or fitting for vacuum wipers)or the mating surfaces between the intake and the block. I have trouble believing that any car or carburetor was designed to have some cobbled up arrangement to involve partially closing the choke to make it run properly. If you're OK with having to run with the choke applied, you might just as well go back to an NH straight through that would probably flow better than your U&J with the choke applied.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:47 am

I hear ya Bruce. I went through all of that. It’s an NOS exhaust manifold and a well seated intake manifold so I don’t see any way for a vacuum leak unless there is a crack I can’t see. Stan made the float the way he makes all of the ones for the U&J. So, I don’t think it’s anything related to Stan’s rebuilding and I don’t really mean to imply that. Might just be this particular carburetor and I only thought that maybe tweaking the jet might be an option. Are you interested in giving it a try?

I did like the NH straight-through carb a lot, but this U&J does give me some more hill climbing ability and the idle is very low and even.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Bruce Compton » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:09 am

Mark : I'm choosing to stay out of this with regards to changing something Stan has built, but will offer a few more suggestions. I would hate to drill a hole in an original U&J intake, but might consider building a thin (3/8") spacer to fit between the carb and intake with a fitting for a vacuum gauge after making absolutely sure that the two surfaces are smooth, even, and tight. If that didn't prove anything , I'd be looking very close at the float and fuel level again and/or backing out the adjustment needle a bit. Drilling out the main fuel jet would not be on my list of options as there are hundreds of these carbs feeding way more exotic motors than yours and doing it just fine the way they were originally designed.


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Re: U & J owners ... adjustment question

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:38 pm

Lets email since I’m not sure this thread is any help to others. Mosterman@eastman.org

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