Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

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Luke
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Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by Luke » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:15 pm

Hi,

Hoping someone could tell me the correct size for the brass brake shoe fixing rivets for a '26 please (with the larger brake drums)? These are the part hollow rivets that are fitted through the friction material to the metal shoe itself. In my case I expect the friction material to be 3/16" thick.

I'd like to know rivet length and diameter so that I can order a box, and since that box will need to come from overseas I need to be sure of getting the right ones :-)

I'm also interested to know if anyone has tried the woven brake/clutch friction material for transmission bands? This is probably more idle curiosity but you never know! At this stage I can't see why it should work reasonably well, except I'm not sure how it would hold up to hot oil...

Actually, if you could tell me the correct rivet size for the bands as well that'd be useful too, please? It'd be great if they were the same size as the brakes but I doubt it's going to be that easy.

Given I live a long way from anywhere that has this sort of stuff I usually order a reasonable amount for stock in case I need something urgently one day...
Last edited by Luke on Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and brake material for bands?

Post by DanTreace » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:49 pm

Have used the vendors emergency brake shoe linings. These are brass wire filled stiff material, comes cut to length and right width.

Used brass tubular rivets , countersink the head 1/2 way into the lining, crimp on backside of metal shoe.

Transmission linings are woven, no wires, and less stiff. Use split rivets in those, brass only, not steel, and fold split into fabric lining.

Tubular and split are approximately same size for each application.

50C2F6E7-D40D-4F2E-B059-946F626CCBF7.jpeg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by Luke » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:46 pm

Thanks Dan, very quick reply, and just what I needed :-)

I'm pleased to hear the transmission band & brake shoe rivets are the same size. Although the 'proper' ones are bifurcated I see no reason at this stage why I couldn't use the same rivets for both jobs. Saves buying two separate boxes of them guess.


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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by jab35 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:00 pm

Luke: As Dan stated, only the bifurcated brass rivets should be used for transmission band linings. There are many forum and written references to best practices for transmission band renewal. Best,

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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by JohnH » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:12 pm

My experience with the repro brake linings was they were inferior to the original asbestos ones (I use mine for normal braking). I went to a brake and clutch place and had bonded linings fitted. Much better. First, I tried bonded linings with a woven material which worked well, but produced a lot of squeaking when the brakes were applied. Got another set of shoes lined with the modern grey stuff and no more squeaking. From memory, the thickness is 5/32".
On the subject of bonded transmission band linings, I am involved with another 26 that had them, and had a lot of use. As far as I can tell they work quite well.
The car has had a lot of use, once being a daily driver, and the drums were in pristine condition when examined. The low was a bit grabby and doesn't take up smoothly like cotton. The linings started to crumble when we took the bands out and now has Scandinavians in it, as does my own car.


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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by Luke » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:55 pm

Jim,

Thanks, I'd read quite a bit on band replacement but didn't find an answer to my curiosity over lining material.

And having the perverse 'need to know why' that I do I'm still not sure that the brass brake rivets couldn't be used without ill effect. I've possibly missed the post that explains this, but for the moment I suspect it's just 'cos the bifurcated items would probably be easier to use (or, 'we've always done them that way'... :-)

John,

I read your earlier post on your brake lining experience but I think at that stage you were still using the woven material (which is probably where I'm heading) - interesting it started to squeak so thanks for the update.

Generally I don't tend to use the hand brake as a service brake, but would like it to be effective if/when needed in that emergency. Given what some tosser seems to have earlier done with mine I'm not sure they're as good as they could be.

I wonder if you have any idea what the bonded transmission lining was? I'm not going to bond mine, I'm happy with the rivets, but in reading the data on the woven friction material for brake/clutch operation I was struggling to find a reason that it wouldn't work. If that other car had the same material it'd be useful to know, but perhaps it's something else again?

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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by DanTreace » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:39 pm

having the perverse 'need to know why' that I do I'm still not sure that the brass brake rivets couldn't be used without ill effect. I've possibly missed the post that explains this, but for the moment I suspect it's just 'cos the bifurcated items would probably be easier to use


Luke, reason you must use bifurcated or split rivets in woven trans band lining is to sink the teeth of those splits into the woven soft fabric linings so the linings don’t pull away from the trans bands. If you tried to use a hollow rivet , that shank will pull thru easy. Not enough purchase of the small fold over hollow shank. You want wide grip into the soft fabric.

The hollow rivets are only for hard materials , if you wished you could use stainless steel Pop Rivets on hard linings for brake shoes.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by Luke » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:51 pm

DanTreace wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:39 pm
....reason you must use bifurcated or split rivets in woven trans band lining is to sink the teeth of those splits into the woven soft fabric linings so the linings don’t pull away from the trans bands....
Ah, thanks Dan. I've not had occasion to replace my bands yet and had assumed the head of the rivet was fitted on the material side, not the outer of the metal hoop. I've used bifurcated rivets with upholstery before but thought the band material was harder and stronger, so wouldn't have needed quite the same treatment.

FWIW I wouldn't use s/s pop rivets on the shoes. This is - partly - what someone else has done to mine, as I see it there are several issues including the potential for damage to the drums; at least brass is relatively soft should it end up in contact.


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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by Luke » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:17 am

Tailpiece - having looked again at some of the postings I'd previously seen I now recollect that I did see the rivet 'reversed' in the band material :oops: clearly my recent foray into the brakes and the horror story there was too vivid in my mind. At least that's my excuse, maybe age has something to do with it too :mrgreen:

Otherwise still musing over the band material possibilities...

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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by DanTreace » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:40 am

12B610C9-415F-4F29-98DE-0BC7ACD90A9F.jpeg
Luke

Using stainless pop rivets could be useful, but alum ones are strong too. Have used alum pop rivets on wood linings. As for s.s. on brake shoes, the heads are sunk deep, only huge lining wear would allow the smaller steel head on steel rear brake drum. Original Ford early shoes are cast iron on steel drums ;)


Alum Pop rivets, photo courtesy of Terry Horlick
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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by JohnH » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:24 pm

Luke,
Unfortunately I don't know what the material was on the bands. And, come to think of it, it was actually riveted, just like old fashioned brake linings. I'd say that the bands were relined with this material during the 1960's just from other things about the car. The material was not woven with wire. I've never had anything to do with automatic transmissions, but I wonder if it's what they used on modern cars back then.


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Re: Improved car brake rivet size, and friction material for bands?

Post by Luke » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:35 pm

Dan, yes I did read about the early metal-metal brakes. Guess they really were for parking only!

I accept that one could use pop rivets, it's just that I wouldn't. I'm no stranger to doing whatever's needed to make things work, and I expect if one only used the brakes when stationary it would be fine, but in some things I can be a bit particular.

Perhaps it's something to do with my aviation work but it just seems wrong to me :geek: although in a bind I guess aluminium would be my choice, being somewhat softer. Clearly the rivet head is well countersunk into the band lining material in the photo you show, so no issue, but that wasn't the case with my brake shoes :shock:


John, I wonder if it was some sort of cork material? That might fit in with them being crumbly, but just to counter that even when new I'm not sure how it'd handle riveting. Hmm.

FWIW I've managed to avoid auto's much of my life but earlier on I had to repair a BW35 in an old Jag I had, I have a feeling it had cork linings.

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