Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

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Jonah D'Avella
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Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:00 pm

Did any of the earlier model ts not have generators?
Last edited by Jonah D'Avella on Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:08 pm

I updated my answer and I see that I should have been more specific :oops:
Simple answer is "no" if you mean "electric generators". Introduced in late 1918 but started as an option to have it then became an option not to have it
Explanation of the system https://modeltfordfix.com/the-model-t-f ... patterson/
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:24 pm

Introduced in 1918...

A slight correction: January, 1919.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Andy Loso » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:09 pm

The early cars had generators; acetylene generators.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Chris Haynes » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:57 pm

My 1921 non electric car has no Generator, Cutout, Battery, or Starter.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:57 pm

Do ya start it on mag?
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Chris Haynes » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:01 pm

Jonah D'Avella wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:57 pm
Do ya start it on mag?
I haven't started it yet. Much to do.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Humblej » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:38 pm

Jonah, you can start a non generator car on mag or an add-on battery.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Ron Patterson » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:08 pm

Jonah
Your question is ambiguous.
If I assume a particular generator type, ALL Model T's had one; an ac generator and that was the internal magneto to operate the coils.
Of course, that is not what you meant to be asking, or was it?
Just joshing with you and your question. :)
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:36 pm

My 26 runs and starts well and I can't start it on mag.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Humblej » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:58 pm

Jonah, to start your car on mag, you have to advance the spark lever about 1/2 inch, unlike starting on bat which must have the spark lever fully retarded.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:11 pm

Do I have to spin it really fast?
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:27 pm

"Do I have to spin it really fast?"

Not if the magneto spacing (clearances) is close to right, magnets properly charged, and the coils in good condition and PROPERLY adjusted, and all other mechanicals in generally good condition.
A very good friend of mine likes to set his up so a slow quarter turn will start his T on magneto.

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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:52 pm

Jonah D'Avella wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:11 pm
Do I have to spin it really fast?
Before you attempt "crank" the engine you better watch a video or two https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... acubXgCg13. Also you need to properly position your body and especially your hand.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:05 pm

I have only used the starter about 3 times, I have been hand cranking it for the last few months.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Humblej » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:08 pm

Ok, you can start the engine on mag with the starter or by hand cranking, and you can start the engine on bat with the starter or hand cranking. Starting on mag requires advancing the spark lever about 1/2 inch, starting on bat requires fully retarded spark lever. When hand cranking on bat or mag, set the crank at the 9:00 position and 1/4 turn pull is all you do, if it did not start reset the crank to the 9:00 position and repeat. Do not turn the crank beyond the 12:00 position.
Warning, if the timing is not set correctly you could risk serious injury while hand cranking and possible damage to the starter bendix if using the starter. Fully retarded spark lever should correspond to a plug firing just past top dead center. A incorrectly adjusted timer rod could cause the plug to fire prior to top dead center and could cause the engine to momentarily run backwards and since the hand crank ratchet will not disengage running backwards it is prone to swing all the way around and strike you in the wrist or arm or head, or any combination, causing serious injury.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Dan Haynes » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:59 pm

Jonah -
When I was your age I was deep into my first Model T (we never forget our first...). I knew every single bolt, nut and screw in that car. I dialed around on the Holley NH carburetor, teaching myself how to adjust it. I fumbled with the nuts on the coils until it started like a breeze (on battery). I grew more confident. Soon, I felt I had coil-adjusting superpowers and, years later, when a friend of mine told me he had found an original hand-cranked-coil tester for $100, I laughed in his face for wasting his money. "You don't need one of those!" I guffawed. "I can adjust coils!"

That day I was driving a 1925 TT C-cab I'd had a couple of years and it was parked right outside the shop door. After fussing with the coils in the TT, I had succeeded in getting it to run great on battery, but only to sputter and die on magneto. The magneto was obviously defective. Stupid Ford magneto.

My friend told me to pull my coils and bring them into the shop and we would take them for a ride on the new hand-cranked-coil machine. I rolled my eyes and agreed to waste my time to humor my old friend. Since I had never before wasted my time with a coil tester, I didn't know exactly what he was doing to each coil, but I watched him tap on this and pry on that, attentively watching a series of fat blue sparks that started appearing as he worked on each one. By and by all four were done.

He handed the stack back to me with a curious smirk on his face but said nothing. I fed them back into the box and started the truck. It sounded fine; no worse, but definitely not noticeably better. "Try mag" said my friend. "No, the mag is dead" I answered. "Try it" said he.

I flipped the key over, knowing it would miss, lose speed and die. I was shocked when it not only kept running, it gained speed and smoothed out! I was in stunned disbelief. How could this be? It was very responsive to the throttle and ran so solidly, without missing a lick. I turned off the ignition and when the engine stopped, I turned the key back to magneto. I pulled the crank and nothing. My friend stepped forward and pulled the spark lever down 3/4 of an inch or so. "Try now." I gave the crank a skeptical flip and it started!" What the...? I turned it off and started it again on magneto. It was easy. Effortless, even. Well, hell! This was amazing!

During the 20 or so mile drive home, the old truck never ran better. It had never run so smoothly and powerfully. It was as if the engine had been overhauled and a distributor put on. It ran like a six. I was delighted. This made me love the old TT at least twice as much!

I started it on mag for the rest of the day and it rewarded me with firing right up and running better than I had ever known it to run. I could not get the smile off my face.
The next morning (I used the truck every day) I did NOT turn the key to battery, as I had always done, but tried mag for the cold start. It started as easily as it previously had on battery. As long as I drove that truck I never turned the key to battery again, I always started and ran on mag.

Epilogue:
I pulled all the coils out of all the cars and hustled them up to my friend's place to give them all the "treatment". My normally jovial friend gave me a bemused smile and said "No". "What?! What do you mean 'no'? I need these things adjusted so they all work like the TT!" "Buy your own coil machine!" he laughed.

So I did! I found a junky one on eBay and charged the magnets, glass beaded all the parts, painted them and had an electronics friend check the big amp gauge for accuracy. Now I run all my coils through it at the beginning of every season and more often if the car has been used a lot. But honestly after the initial setting, they normally don't need much throughout the year; they just work. They always work.

So, Jonah, the answer is yes, if there is no battery, you just start them on mag.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:39 pm

Jonah D'Avella wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:36 pm
My 26 runs and starts well and I can't start it on mag.
There are many reasons why it will not start on Mag. Could be that the magnets were removed, lost magnetism etc etc...
You mentioned that you have started it on battery both cranking & starter. Since you got a "running car" I'd first complete those projects you have started and any that make the car safe to drive.
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:45 am

It can be assumed we're talking about acetylene gas generators since early T's did not have a battery. Answer is no. The base model 1909/1910 T did not include acetylene lamps, therefore no need of an acetylene generator. Some percentage of those that did option for carbide lamps were equipped with an accessory Prestolite cylinder, in lieu of a brass acetylene generator/converter.
SR


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:23 am

When I drive the car always drive it on Mac. It runs even better than it does on battery and I don't have a problem switching. I'm going to try starting it on mag now also, I had my coil rebuild and tested recently.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by RustyFords » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:39 am

Jonah D'Avella wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:11 pm
Do I have to spin it really fast?
My 24 has a generator and starter but it will start with the hand crank on mag....I just have to spin it like a clock....probably because the mag isn't in tip-top shape. Before anyone scolds me....yes, I know spinning it like that is a recipe for disaster. It's just something I wanted to do once to see if it could be done on my car.

As a counter-point however, I started John Mays' 1911 Touring a few times (no electric starter) on mag and all it took was a firm upward tug on the crank. Again....probably because it was in excellent shape mechanically with a like-new mag.
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:53 am

I've tried starting the car and mag, and even spinning it really fast, I can't get it to start. Any suggestions?
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:12 pm

I'll let the others instruct you on this. But here is something that you can do to start
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 760271.pdf


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Billy Vrana » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:31 pm

They must have, they generate smiles where ever you take em,


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Poppie » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:35 pm

Jonah,
Get your coils set up properly on a HCCT. Your coils are most probably set at too high a current draw and your mag is not generating enough voltage at hand cranking speed at say 60/100 rpm but fires the coils OK at idle and better at speed.....N.


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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:02 am

What is a HCCT tester?
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Re: Did all ts have generators?

Post by Humblej » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:14 am

HCCT is a Hand Crank Coil Tester. The old ones were made with a model T flywheel, magnets, and coil ring. Many model t clubs have them or some members have them, one of the advantages of belonging to a local club. A HCCT is very big, heavy, and expensive, not the sort of thing the average T owner has. There are modern electronic versions that do not have the size, weight or cost of an original. Either one is the only way to properly adjust coils. If you have bought rebuilt coils they should already be set up and adjusted and should be good for years without touching.


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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Ron Patterson » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:17 am

An HCCT is a hand cranked coil tester designed by Ford to test and adjust ignition coils and distributed to dealerships starting in 1919.
Attachments
Restored 18-Z-245 Ford Coil Tester.jpg


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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:20 am

Ok, what does HCCT stand for?
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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Andy Loso » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:37 am

As stated above it is a a Hand Cranked Coil Tester. I have one for sale. Here is the post:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17858


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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:44 am

F: first F: find
O: on O: oil
R: race R: revive
D: day D: drive
Jonahdavella@gmail.com


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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by jab35 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:52 am

I wouldn't spend the $$, see footnote:
Will this tester test for double sparking?
No it will not check for double spark or check the capacitor.
Answered By: 23 SEL
25 out of 27 found this answer useful.


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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:00 am

I wouldn't spend the $$,

What do you mean by that? It is less expensive than the HCCT. What all does the HCCT do anyway?
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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:08 am

Andy's price may seem high, but it isn't. Decent hand cranked coil testers often cost more than he's asking. The other coil testers, Strobo Spark and ECCT, cost a few hundred less. And less costly than buying a tester is sending your coils to one of the guys who restore and adjust them (Ron Patterson, Brent Mize, Andy Loso, Luke Chennel, and others).

I agree with the good advice above on safe hand starting. The difference between starting on BAT and starting on MAG is that on BAT the batteries buzz the coils even as you pull slowly. On MAG you have to pull fast enough to generate the voltage yourself. Of course that does NOT mean spin. Just pull up quickly. Here's my page on hand starting, with links to videos: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html
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Re: Did all ts have generators? And other questions about coil testing.

Post by MKossor » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:44 pm

What all does the HCCT do anyway?
Properly adjusted Model T coils are essential for optimal engine performance. Properly adjusted coils means the coils are adjusted for equal and consistent firing time from the moment the Timer (aka commutator) activates the coil to fire spark when the piston at the proper position. Coil firing timing error degrades engine power and smoothness.

Accurate measurement of brief intervals such as coil firing time (~0.002 seconds) was not practical back in the day but the accurate measurement of electrical current was. The Hand Cranked Coil Tester (HCCT) is constructed with Model T magneto coil and hand cranked to produce the electrical output that powers the coils. The HCCT and All legacy coil testers used accurate Ammeters to measure the resulting average coil current flowing in the coil primary winding as an indirect approximating of coil firing time. The objective is to adjust the coil points on all 4 coils so they produce the same average coil current reading when powered by cranking the HCCT briskly (60 - 120 RPM), and thus, the same firing time. One cavoite is that the coil must only spark once for each HCCT pulse of electricity. There are 16 HCCT pulses of electricity for each revolution of the hand crank so each revolution of the crank must produce 16 sparks. The spark gap rotates with the HCCT crank which makes it easy to see 16 evenly spaced sparks as the crank is rotated when the coil points are adjusted properly. A double spark at one or more of the 16 positions means there is a spark timing issue that must be corrected by adjusting the cushion spring tension on the upper point element. Double sparking is bad because the spark energy is divided between an early (advanced) weak spark occurring too soon and a late (retarded) weak spark occurring too late for good ignition to occur. Considering the HCCT operates at abnormally slow speed (60-120 RPM) that produces abnormally low output voltage and rise time in which the coils will never operate, HCCT adjusted coils work remarkably well provided all 4 coils are matched both electrically and mechanically.

Simple buzz box col testers only measure coil current without a rotary spark gap cannot detect double sparking so are limited in their ability to confirm proper coil point adjustment. They are capable of testing the coil has good primary and secondary windings.

I developed a modern coil tester that accurately measures the coil dwell time to fire spark known as the Electrically Cranked Coil Tester (ECCT). You can learn more about it from the website here: www.modeltecct.com

Coil points are consumable items which require periodic maintenance and adjustment for optimal engine performance. Many learn and enjoy the art of coil point adjustment as integral part of the Model T experience. Others prefer to simply send them out. Definitely considering joining your local Model T club to benefit from the knowledge and resources they can provide to you as a member.
I-Timer + ECCT Adjusted Coils = Best Model T Engine Performance Possible!
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com

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