Synthetic Oil

[Model T Ron]

I use Shell Rotella 15w40 non-synthetic but I just looked and the difference in price between standard Rotella and Rotella T6 (Synthetic) and it's only $4.00 more per gallon at Walmart. I am tempted to go Synthetic for just 4 more bucks.....not sure when my engine was rebuilt but after 250 miles or so the dip stick looks as clean as the day I changed the oil.

[TXGOAT2]

Some Montana 500 competitors use synthetic oil in near-stock engines. That indicates to me that it is fully suited to use in Model T engines. Wal Mart offers a 10W30 synthetic blend that would be a good choice, and they also offer a full synthetic in 10W30 and 10W40. I'm pretty sure someone would sue Wal Mart out of business if their product did not meet label spec. If your engine has some wear, STP offers a product that is synthetic compatible. I am using the Wal Mart 10W30 full synthetic in my T and oil consumption and leakage are very low, probably about the same as a new Model T. My car has Kevlar bands, and they work very well with the synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is supposed to have the best resistance to cold weather and hot weather conditions, along with low ash and high film strength qualities. Beyond all that, it may soon be all that's available.

[Model T Ron]

You comment on changing every 1500 to 2000 makes more sense to me knowing your running Synthetic. I still think synthetic is an overkill but $18.28 vs $22.28 is making a good case to switch to Synthetic at my next oil change. My engine may have been rebuilt many years back as I do not know the history but I have a feeling very few miles were put on since the rebuild. I think running about 750 on standard oil and then switching to Shell Rotella 15w40 T6 (Full Synthetic) is in my future.

Synthetic offers better protection for all the reason you mentioned above......may not be necessary but 4 bucks is cheep added insurance and I can see running 1500 miles as apposed to 750 so it's actually cheaper for me to run synthetic.

[TRDxB2]

I use Shell Rotella 15w40 non-synthetic but I just looked and the difference in price between standard Rotella and Rotella T6 (Synthetic) and it's only $4.00 more per gallon at Walmart. I am tempted to go Synthetic for just 4 more bucks.....not sure when my engine was rebuilt but after 250 miles or so the dip stick looks as clean as the day I changed the oil.

Things to consider -
The color of oil isn't the only factor in determining its state of usefulness (color is effected from engine heat) - texture (foamy, gritty) is far more important. Since the Model T engine lacks a oil filter such that engine deposits are kept in suspension, the frequency of oil changes should be based on miles driven or time (oil additives will stratify over time). So oils with high mileage between oil change claims makes little sense for a Model T engine. You should refer back to oil change frequencies before multi viscosity and synthetic oils...as I recall 500-1000 miles or yearly and that was with an oil filter. So the best oil for a Model T is one that you will change yearly (assuming miles driven not being the factor) but when.....
Good reading --- https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/03 ... ners-make/
"Under the proper circumstances, oil can sit in an engine for six months and still be derivable. To help decide whether an oil change is necessary immediately after a car has been stored, Speed offers three situations:
If you’ve been cranking the car once a month while in storage, change the oil immediately.
If you didn’t change the oil when you put it in storage, change the oil.
If you put in fresh oil when you stored the vehicle, don’t change the oil."
So don't pay for the mileage claim, buy to change it every year regardless of mileage.

[greenacres36]

Rumor has it synthetic flows a little better in a cold engine. That would be a huge benefit in a splash lubricated engine I think. I use it.

[TXGOAT2]

I believe you are correct. Synthetic oil in a given viscosity range should provide better cold start cranking and lubrication and could be expected to reduce cold start clutch drag in a Model T.

[TRDxB2]

Rumor has it synthetic flows a little better in a cold engine. That would be a huge benefit in a splash lubricated engine I think. I use it.

Not a rumor but a fact. Having said that it is the oil viscosity specification that determines cold weather flow and how it thickens when it warms up. Here is an example that may get you thinking, but first put aside the synthetic vs regular oil issue. Many of Today's cars (2019 +) are recommending 0W30, yes "0W", for faster lubrication to vital engine parts when starting. So would you switch to this weight oil since it would be even better in cold weather? https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/educatio ... -faqs.html

[greenacres36]

Well……may be good for upper cylinder lube in an older engine. Lol

[TXGOAT2]

Thicker ain't necessarily better. In fact, it usually isn't. While Model Ts don't typically have the very tight clearances of modern engines, they lack a pressurized lube system. Ford recommended what would be close to an SAE 20 oil for year round use and even thinner oil for winter and warned against the use of "heavy" motor oils. As late as 1949, Chevrolet recommended 10W oil for cold weather use, and for extreme cold, they recommended 10 W oil with 10% kerosene added. In 1949, Chevrolet still used babbited rods, cast iron pistons, and a low pressure oiling system with rod bearing lubrication only a little more sophisticated than the Model T. You can burn the rod bearings out of a good Model T or Model A engine by putting thick oil in the crankcase and starting the engine on a cold morning and revving it.

[Professor Fate]

I like using the screen and magnet on my cars.
I use 10-30 and I only run cars in 40f+ temps. The warm season [model t season ] here is awesome but only lasts May- October

[Norman Kling]

I use 10-30 from Walmart. Usually it is Valvoline. I do not use synthetic oil. The viscosity does not increase with hot weather. The numbers mean at is like 10 would be in very cold weather and like 30 would be in hot weather. It just changes viscosity less with temperature than the fixed viscosity oils. The detergent will hold particles in suspension but since there is no filter, it must be changed often. I also use the screen and magnets. The magneto magnets will also pick up some particles, but at least the magnet in the screen will remove some of them.
Norm

[John Codman]

What Norman Kling just said. Any off-the-shelf modern oil is better then what was available when the Model T was new by several orders of magnitude: synthetic is overkill. If it makes you feel better to purchase the "best", go for it, my Model T has been running on non-synthetic oils for 94 years and is just fine. I do use Mobil 1 in our whole-house generator and my lawn tractor (air cooled engines get quite a lot hotter then liquid-cooled powerplants). The generator starts and immediately goes to 3,600 RPM. I do want the best possible lubricants for it. The garden tractor works hard and gets a lot of use; again, I want the best possible lubricants for it. Compared to those two, The T engine's life is a paradise.

[John kuehn]

What kind of oil is the best comes up every 2-3 months. You can count on it.
The house brand HD oil at Auto-zone, Wal- Mart or the Dollar store is WAY better than what was available during the Model T era.
I use 10w30 here in Texas. Rotella is good too.

Synthetic oil is OK but save your money and be happy with house brand oil at the above. Your T will never know any difference but you pocket book will.
Using an oil screen with or without a magnet helps too. It’s an old accessory that has turned out to be quite effective and one of the best accessories that survived and works.

[TXGOAT2]

I find that my old standby, Wal Mart 20W50 conventional, is no longer cheap. What's more, it's often in limited stock or out of stock. These ricerocket tuner kids don't buy it. What doesn't move in volume, Wal Mart phases out.

[Jack Tarlinton]

As a newbie to Model Ts I have been doing some research into oils to use in the engine I'm currently building.

This discussion from 2008 came up in one of my searches - it's interesting to me because of the discussion regarding using additives to boost zinc levels.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1205933038

About half way down the thread some members chime in with information quoted directly from communication with the manufacturers.

I don't know enough to take a side regarding any of this, but thought some on this thread would find it interesting.

Best regards

Jack

[TXGOAT2]

A stock T ought not need the zinc compound. An OHV conversion might, and an engine with an aggressive cam and valve springs might benefit. I don't know whether the zinc would benefit transmission gears. It might very well do so; however, gears in good condition make a rolling contact rather than a sliding contact like a cam and lifter.

[TXGOAT2]

STP now offers a p[roduct that contains ZDDP. It's in the regular blue pint bottle but with a white cap. It's supposed to be compatible with both synthetic and conventional oil. Might help... can't hurt... at least in mild weather.

[TXGOAT2]

Does anyone know if ZDDP offers a continuous benefit in certain engines or does it just protect the cam/lifter interface at start-up?

[Model T Ron]

Does anyone know if ZDDP offers a continuous benefit in certain engines or does it just protect the cam/lifter interface at start-up?

The way I understand it ZDDP or Zinc offers increased friction reduction and this is good for the engine and in my opinion a requirement for Diesel Engines. I first started using Shell Rotella with ZDDP in my 2003 VW Diesel and since then many people have recommended it for old cars. For the last 5 years it has been my go to oil for the 1929 Model A and now my 1915 Model T.

[TXGOAT2]

Mineral base multigrade oils contain a "viscosity index improver" which gives the oil its multigrade properties. The viscosity improver additive can degrade in hard service due to "shear", which in turn degrades the oil's ability to maintain film strength at higher temperatures. Full synthetic oils do not depend on the additive, and thus do not suffer from "shear" under duress. This would likely be of benefit in a Model T in the transmission gears under extended conditions of high heat and load. A performance cam would probably also benefit.

[TXGOAT2]

ZDDP is probably a must have for something like a '68 Chrysler Hemi or a '67 Vette. A Model T probably doesn't need it. If it offers dry start protection, a T might benefit.

[Model T Ron]

I was looking around and I found Shell Rotell T6 full synthetic even cheaper at Tractor Supply......$19.99 a gallon.

[Gonenorth]

I run 10W-40 full synthetic in my T, and have since after the break-in period of the engine was completed. No issues. However...my engine is not a prolific leaker like some T engines. Actually, leakage is pretty minimal. If that wasn't the case I would be checking out the sales on 10W-30 or 10W-40 wherever I could get it. No sense throwing money away.

[TXGOAT2]

If my engine leaked or burned a fair amount of oil, I'd use Wal Mart conventional 10W30 or 20W50. It's a good product at a good price. Non-detergent, dirt-cheap oil seems to have faded from the market. If you're using a lot of oil, it's cheaper to remedy the issue(s) rather than pouring oil on the ground. I used to buy virgin, 30 W non-detergent oil in handy 2-gallon metal cans *for $2.00 a pop.* Cain't do that no more. If you run several vehicles and change your own oil regularly, putting the used oil in the T is an option. I would not mix conventional and synthetic oil. Three quarts of used oil from a late model vehicle that is in good condition, with one new quart of the same oil added, would make a good lube for a Model T, assuming the used oil has been changed at reasonable intervals. If the late model drained oil is a 0W10 or 0W20, it's probably fine for winter use. For summertime use, I'd add a pint of STP to it. STP is still pretty cheap, and it does have its uses.

[Model T Ron]

I know people put used oil in but I would never do something like that. If my car was changing the oil all by itself I would get a new set of gaskets and fix the problem. You can expect a little leaking on a Model T ......few drips hear and there but not Quarts at a time.

[TXGOAT2]

My engine is tight so I put name brand synthetic oil in it as dids the previous owner. If it was an oil hog, I'd put perfectly adequate used oil ( from a trusted source: me) in it, with a quart of fresh oil to sweeten the additive package. I would not put used oil from sources unknown in any engine.

[Model T Ron]

I still think fixing it with new gaskets would be better. Now if it burns oil and you do not have the money for a rebuild that's a different story.

[TXGOAT2]

It would be an economy measure for use in just such a situation. Repairing leaks can often be done without spending a lot of money, but an engine with advanced ring and bearing wear will find ways to leak regardless. Oil mist will be formed by blowby and loose bearings slapping and it will escape from oil fillers, throttle rod passages, etc. Worn rings will tend to pressurize the crankcase, especially when the engine is under load, and that will often drive oil past even new seals. If I drain the oil from, say, a 2018 Jeep in moderate service at 4 to 5000 miles, that oil is of much better quality than what was available in the 1920s, and it would still have sufficient additive strength for use in a T, more especially if about 25% fresh oil was added. Used oil from any outside source cannot be trusted.

[speedytinc]

Does anyone know if ZDDP offers a continuous benefit in certain engines or does it just protect the cam/lifter interface at start-up?

The way I understand it ZDDP or Zinc offers increased friction reduction and this is good for the engine and in my opinion a requirement for Diesel Engines. I first started using Shell Rotella with ZDDP in my 2003 VW Diesel and since then many people have recommended it for old cars. For the last 5 years it has been my go to oil for the 1929 Model A and now my 1915 Model T.

I second this.
I like the idea or chance ZDDP additive makes for a safer oil. I understood it was removed because or clogging catalytic converters. Previous to this era zinc was the norm. Good enough for me. I run straight 30 wt valvoline racing. Is a bit expensive, but comes up on sale often, not that its about $$.

[TXGOAT2]

As I understand it, ZDDP came into use when car engines began to have higher compression, 10: 1 and higher, and more aggressive cam profiles and the bigger valves and stronger springs that go along with them. HP per cubic inch moved up from about 1/2 HP per cubic inch to near and sometimes over 1 HP per cubic inch by 1970. That was pushing the limits of plain lifters, solid or hydraulic, and the answer was better oil and part of that was/is ZDDP. Of course, the EPA squalled, ZDDP became verboten, and so manufacturers moved to roller cams and overhead cams to reduce the loading and friction at the cam/lifter interface. It's now common to see engines making well over 1 HP per cubic inch on pump gas, even in Suburban Mom cars. As far as a stock model T, I don't think it would need ZDDP for the cam/lifters or any other engine parts. The transmission gears might benefit, but that's a guess on my part. Most cars used straight mineral oil up until around 1950 or so. Cars of the late '30s and up to the early '50s routinely made about 1/2 HP per cubic inch, which is a lot more than a stock Model T or Model A, and they did it at higher engine speeds. A late flathead Ford V8 made around 110 HP at 3600 RPM and they did fine on the typical oils of the day.

[Model T Ron]

As I understand it, ZDDP came into use when car engines began to have higher compression, 10: 1 and higher, and more aggressive cam profiles and the bigger valves and stronger springs that go along with them. HP per cubic inch moved up from about 1/2 HP per cubic inch to near and sometimes over 1 HP per cubic inch by 1970. That was pushing the limits of plain lifters, solid or hydraulic, and the answer was better oil and part of that was/is ZDDP. Of course, the EPA squalled, ZDDP became verboten, and so manufacturers moved to roller cams and overhead cams to reduce the loading and friction at the cam/lifter interface. It's now common to see engines making well over 1 HP per cubic inch on pump gas, even in Suburban Mom cars. As far as a stock model T, I don't think it would need ZDDP for the cam/lifters or any other engine parts. The transmission gears might benefit, but that's a guess on my part. Most cars used straight mineral oil up until around 1950 or so. Cars of the late '30s and up to the early '50s routinely made about 1/2 HP per cubic inch, which is a lot more than a stock Model T or Model A, and they did it at higher engine speeds. A late flathead Ford V8 made around 110 HP at 3600 RPM and they did fine on the typical oils of the day.

Pat
Well said and I agree that my Model T and Model A do not need ZDDP but my oil, Shell Rotella has it in there.....it can not hurt and may help like you said. Rotella is Diesel Engine oil and it is designed to hold contamination in suspension much better than regular oil due to its additive package. I have owned Diesels for many years and if you have as well you know that the oil turns coal black as soon as you change it. You need a diesel oil that keeps all that contamination in suspension. With Rotella having properties like that I feel it's a good thing to have it in a Model T.

I also use Mobile One Synthetic in my modern gas vehicles and have had excellent results with it.....without an oil filter I think Rotella is a much better choice. Please keep in mind that I feel oil is cheep insurance and I do not mind paying a little more for synthetic but I do realize that the lowest quality oil available today is light years ahead of what Our Model T's used when new.

[Steve Jelf]

I asked a couple of Model T pros what they use. One, who has rebuilt hundreds of engines, uses diesel oil (Rotella). The other, an ace Model T mechanic who drives a T more than most of us, said Kendall 20W-50. I didn't think to ask why that particular brand.

[TRDxB2]

How soon we forget. There have been numerous discussions in the past about what "engine" oil for maximum lubrication. And ignore what effect the choice might have on transmission bands. The Model T falls into the "wet clutch" category along with some motor cycles, rv's, and diesel trucks. The recommendation for those are lubricant codes JASO MA and JASO MA2. As it has it Rotella T4(blended) & T6 (synthetic) both meet that specification.

[Model T Ron]

How soon we forget. There have been numerous discussions in the past about what "engine" oil for maximum lubrication. And ignore what effect the choice might have on transmission bands. The Model T falls into the "wet clutch" category along with some motor cycles, rv's, and diesel trucks. The recommendation for those are lubricant codes JASO MA and JASO MA2. As it has it Rotella T4(blended) & T6 (synthetic) both meet that specification.

Living in NC I think 15w40 Rotella T6 is a better Choice than 5W40 Rotella as I am never starting at temps below 30. What are your thoughts for a Model T

[TXGOAT2]

Read the Wikipedia, et al, articles on ZDDP. Rotella is a fine product and it is highly detergent/dispersant with good ZDDP levels. I would use 15/40 Rotella, regular or synthetic, in a T unless in very cold conditions, in which case 15/40 regular with a pint or two of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL will work well. I have had better results using Wal Mart 20/50 conventional oil in old engines with some wear on them rather than Rotella 15/40. I'd guess that the high detergent/dispersant qualities of the Rotella 15/40 may keep the worn rings and pistons too clean, allowing slightly more blowby. A little varnish/carbon on piston skirts and behind rings in worn engines can actually improve performance in worn engines in light duty service. I have had no issues with transmission bands or clutch function using full synthetic oil. As far as that goes, ZDDP, being a friction modifier, might not be a stock Model T's metal-to metal clutch's best friend. On the other hand it might very well promote smooth clutch engagement and prevent damage from mis-use. More likely, unit pressure between clutch discs would be too low to allow ZDDP to do much of anything. I don't believe ZDDP would affect band performance. ZDDP is effective between metal surfaces operating under high unit pressure, like cam/lifter surfaces in higher performance engines. I speculate that it might offer some protection to Model T transmission gears. Apparently, nearly all automotive lubricants made in the last 70 years have at least some ZDDP, and today's motor oil formulations still include ZDDP, though at reduced levels. ZDDP can be bought for use as an additive at auto parts stores. It's not clear from what I've read whether ZDDP in any reasonable amount will kill a catalytic converter or not. It is a toxic substance, and I would not recommend it for use as a table condiment.

[Model T Ron]

Being a new model T owner with about 300 miles so far I had to make my first band adjustment last Sunday......I do not think the Shell Rotella had anything to do with it. The nut behind the wheel had to learn how to drive a Model T . I found out I was letting the clutch slip a little to much and I was riding out 1st a little to long. I was able to drive my T from day one on my property but it just recently became second nature to me and the miles are now quickly adding up as I go on 15 to 30 mile drives several times a week

[TXGOAT2]

It's like riding a bicycle. Experience is the best teacher. It takes a while for a modern car driver to develop Model T reflexes.

[Steve Jelf]

Caution: The medium light engine oil recommended by Ford was the equivalent of 20W-20. (See Royce's website for an explanation of how we know that.) The 5W-20 used in modern engines is NOT the same.

[TRDxB2]

Caution: The medium light engine oil recommended by Ford was the equivalent of 20W-20. (See Royce's website for an explanation of how we know that.) The 5W-20 used in modern engines is NOT the same.
Oils Chart.jpg

I have posted the link to Royce's info multiple times in the past (years!). 20w-20 is slightly incorrect. It was called "light weight" oil which equated to 20W NON-DETERGENT OIL. They didn't have "detergent oils" then, nor the quality of today's oils. There is no longer a one-size-fits-all for a T engine, choice of oil pretty much depends on the the state of the engine, was it rebuilt?, when, with what, usage and climate. What one person uses without reference to those factors should be a consideration but not necessarily the determining factor.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford recommended an oil with a low "cold test", in other words, an oil that was minimally affected by low temperatures. If multi-grade oil had been available, they would have recommended its use. They cautioned againt driving fast with a cold engine. They also recommended an oil that resisted loss of viscosity at higher temperatures. In those days, that usually meant a "premium", name-brand oil, such as Mobiloil Gargoyle. It was common for manufacturers to recommend adding a percentage of kersosene to crankcase oil for operation in very cold weather. My car has run the Montana 500 on full synthetic 0W20 oil. I am using a 10W30 full synthetic with good results for general driving at up to 50 MPH. Model Ts in good running condition don't like thick oil, unless you operate in Death Valley in July. If I ran my car often in very cold weather, I'd probably run a 10W20 synthetic. If I experienced significant clutch drag on cold starts, I'd add a pint of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL.

[JBog]

Rumor has it synthetic flows a little better in a cold engine. That would be a huge benefit in a splash lubricated engine I think. I use it.

Not a rumor but a fact. Having said that it is the oil viscosity specification that determines cold weather flow and how it thickens when it warms up. Here is an example that may get you thinking, but first put aside the synthetic vs regular oil issue. Many of Today's cars (2019 +) are recommending 0W30, yes "0W", for faster lubrication to vital engine parts when starting. So would you switch to this weight oil since it would be even better in cold weather? https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/educatio ... -faqs.html

So it sounds like if you live in a cooler part of the country, 0W20 or maybe 0W30?

[Kerry]

5w or 0 flows easier, of course it does, but a T engine clearances are by a today's modern engine specs are worn out so flows easier in and even faster out, it would not be doing it's job as a lubricant in the design of a vintage splash engine.

[TXGOAT2]

As I said, I'm running a Model T that has competed and placed well in the Montana 500 mile race using 0W20 full synthetic oil. The engine is essentially stock, and it has run several thousand miles since I acquired it with no bearing or ring problems. I changed to a 10W30 full synthetic mainly because of the Texas summer heat. The engine behaves the same with either oil. It smoked a little at idle with the 0W20, and when I changed to 10W30 it did the same. I eliminated the smoke by reducing the Texas T oiler flow volume somewhat. No more smoke, ever, and the engine sounds good and has run several hundred miles at up to 50 MPH since the modification with no ill effect. Based on all that, I'd be comfortable using a quality 0W20 synthetic in a good engine in cold weather. I may try it next summer in hot weather. I have reason to believe it would do fine.

[Model T Ron]

Would 5w40 be a better choice as apposed to 15w40? I am asking because Shell Rotella comes in both.

[Kerry]

Pat, the test would be miles and time, tell us what your engine is like when you have done what Dean Yoder has at a 100,000 miles on 20w50

[TRDxB2]

Would 5w40 be a better choice as apposed to 15w40? I am asking because Shell Rotella comes in both.

The first value 5W vs 15W applies to cold starting (engine as well as ambient temperature). High performance cars today are looking at 0W for quick lubrication. T6also applies to wet clutch specifications - the 40 value may be a bit high for newly rebuilt engine

[TXGOAT2]

If 0W20 syn failed to lubricate all parts of the engine, the car never would have completed the Montana 500, which it did do. Beyond that, I don't believe that it would have stood up to the way I drive it, particularly in 95-100 F weather. I believe you would find that the film strength of a good 0W20 synthetic oil is substantially higher at oil temperatures well above 200 F than that of the best oils available in the 1920s under similar conditions. I believe that you could destroy a Model T engine a lot quicker running a heavy oil in a tight motor, especially in cold weather, than you ever would running a good multi-grade synthetic. Modern multi-grade oils with a low 1st number, and particularly synthetics, approximate the flowability characterstics that Ford engineers recommended for the Model T. They far exceed every other aspect of 1920s oil performance in any operating environment, and particularly in cold start lubrication and warmup and operating in very hot weather. Use what you like; Ts can tolerate less than ideal oils. (But stay away from the heavy stuff in cold weather!)

[TXGOAT2]

5W or 0W would probably be more suitable for use in Maine than in the Carolinas. A 30W or 40W equivalent at operating temerpature ought to be fine for a T engine. I'd go with a 10W30 for break in, unless in very cold weather, in which case I'd choose a 5W20 or even a 0W20.