Slightly Loose Felloe

[Ben Umberger]

Gents,

I have a non demountable ('14 front) with a slightly loose Felloe. Thinking of drilling the rim 24 times and placing screws through and into the Felloe.

Was thinking that if there was some kind of 2 part epoxy that was runny enough to squirt into the holes (with a syringe) it would improve the equation. Any ideas or thoughts
Thanks

[Steve Jelf]

I don't like the sound of it. Making the spokes tight in the felloe is not the same as making the felloe tight in the rim. I would bite the financial bullet and send that wheel to a good wheelwright for new wood.

[Scott_Conger]

Ben

Jim Almeter of the Fun "T's" did a wonderful clinic some years ago on removing the rim, reducing the diameter of the wheel's fellos by about 1/8" and then gluing on a continuous band of wood around the OD. That was followed by fixturing on the mill and manually rotating the wheel to the cutter to present a concentric and very slightly oversized (resized) wheel that the rim was very tight on. He and his wife are or were in the rural Bradenton area. Others on the forum have done similar. Ask around the club and someone will remember and maybe even have the tools for such a repair.

All of those screws will not shrink the rim to the fellos, but will pull the fellos outward, exacerbating the problem. Everything needs to be under compression, not pulled apart.

Assuming the rest of the wheel is sound, this is a perfectly safe and effective repair.

[DHort]

That rim is heated and shrunk onto the felloe. Then kept in place with 2 rivits. No glue is going to hold it. Like Steve says, it needs to be sent to a wheelwright to be rebuilt. Your safety and that of your passengers is too important. $300 will be a lot cheaper than a hospital bill.

[Scott_Conger]

a 1914 wheel has 6 rivets, not 2

the correct use of a traveler on both the (oversize) repaired wood portion of the wheel and then on the ID of the rim will allow for an appropriate compressed assembly and is a perfectly safe repair. I will grant that pretty much any repair can be done poorly or dangerously and if that is the level of work coming out of someone's shop, then by all means, the work should be sent out to an appropriate specialist.

[TWrenn]

There's an old saying..."when in doubt, throw it out". Obviously you doubt the integrity of your wheel. Front wheels take a lot of punishment on turns. I would not trust even repaired felloes. Send it to Noah Stutzman. And then drive with confidence. I wonder about the other front wheel. I just had 3 wheels re-spoked by Noah because I doubted their integrity. Glad I did.

[Rich P. Bingham]

That rim is heated and shrunk onto the felloe . . .

That is certainly the time-tested method for shrinking iron tires on wagon and buggy wheels. Does anyone know if this is the method used by Ford's wheel wrights in pre-demountable days ? Do the wheelwrights rebuilding our artillery wheels use this method ?

[Scott_Conger]

Rich

Ford, I don't know but modern vendors - at least some of them do. Coker, I believe is one that either does, or did (and I'd be surprised if they've changed). Given the CTE of steel, it would seem short sighted to not make use of that benefit. To what temperature, I don't know, as I have seen blasted/primed rims come back looking just fine, so in that case it is not heated to the brutally hot temps that a wagon tire is typically heated to.

[Moxie26]

Using a certified wheel right is a good suggestion. I have checked wheels by elevating the axle so the wheel will turn free and tighten the nuts on the inside of the hub to help the wheel rotate in a straight line , taking up any slack brought on by dehydration of the wood.

[Altair]

The non demountable rims with loose spokes can be repaired. The felloes are riveted to the rim with three rivets in each half, there is a cleat that the rivet goes through where they are joined. The rivets can be ground off from the inside and punched out. New rivets are readily available. The loose talons, can be drilled out some are 3/8" and some are 1/2". A size for size drill can be used through the hole in the rim and drill the old talon out to a depth of about 1 1/2 then glue a new hardwood talon/pin into the drilled hole. I turned the pins on my lathe to fit tight. Note because the hole is air tight a small hole should be drilled in the pin to be inserted to allow the air to escape, the glue will squeeze out the hole and fill it. This will be as strong as new if not stronger. You could use any material for the pin even metal. When completed re-rivet the felloe back in to the rim. New cleats and rivets are available. I have done this procedure on 3-4 wheels and they are as strong as original.

[Kerry]

If you watch the period film called, "Ford Model T plant produktion", (and yes that's how they spelt it) the wheel rim is pressed on the wood and the workers are not wearing gloves. so I don't think any heat is involved on the rim like wagon wheels are assembled.

[Russ_Furstnow]

Ben, Please have your wood felloe wheels rebuilt. Here are a couple of photos of what happened to an original wheel that had a loose felloe. The restorer (not me) screwed the felloe to the rim along with the rivets. The wood was original and looked good, but was filled with wood filler to make the wheel smooth. Upon making a slow left turn, the wheel exploded. After taking all of the wood from every wheel, I observed that the previous owner had made the wheels look good, but had not made them safe. The four wheels on this car have been sent to Noah Stutzman for rewooding. I urge you to have your wheels redone by a reputable wheelwright. I highly recommend Stutzman's Wheel Shop in Baltic, OH. Your safety is worth MUCH more than the cost of four rewooded wheels!!! I hope this helps. Russ Furstnow

[TWrenn]

Noah was working on the rim of a non-demountable when I picked up my 3 wheels for the Fordor and the steering wheel for the Torpedo. Could very well have been yours Russ! Gosh what excellent work! Anyway, he must've had like 25 rims for Ts all around the shop ...that tells a lot about his work! So Ben, yes, again, take our advice...send 'em in. Russ just verified what I said about front wheels especially taking "a beating" upon turns. Most of us really have no idea just how much lateral stress is on those things on a turn, and well, how many "faster and/or sharp turns" do people even make, eh? I try to make them slow and "wide" just to keep the stress level down. Maybe I'm paranoid or even wrong, but at least it makes me feel a bit more safe, and of course with new spokes it's even better. I think the non-demountabes from Noah are actually less than the $300 that was previously stated. Minus shipping of course!!

[TXGOAT2]

Ford probably had all the wood wheel parts dried in kilns before assembly. I'd be inclined to have any century old wood spoked wheel rebuilt. It's cheap insurance against accident and against the many issues that wheels in less than top condition will cause.

[Thorlick]

I have successfully repaired non-demountable wheels on several of my Model T’s. (By successful I mean the were not loose, wobbly, clicking, cracking paint, dribbling rust for as long as I have had the car in addition to no problems reported from the new owners. This in spite of heavy, often off road, use.)

I remove the rivits and then nail one or more strip of galvanized sheet steel (obtained to order from a local HVAC shop) being sure to pull the strip up tight as I nail. Carefully drill the stem and rivet holes through the shim.

Next with a large rosebud tip on my acetylene torch I heat the rim way too hot to touch, but stopping before red. It takes a long time to heat a rim so have enough gas before starting. Then I drop the rim onto the wheel whilst lining up the stem and rivet holes placing drifts, bolts, or rivets in place. Next I hose the wheel down shrinking the rim to the wheel. Next I bolt the hub in and quickly put it onto the car so I can true it. Turn it running a dial indicator against the rim. I use a wood mallet against the felloe to get THE RIM true. If you can true it with a rubber mallet then the shims are probably too thin.

Try the new rivets in. If they are loose give significant thought to drilling larger and using a larger rivet. Rivet rims to the wheel (remember the two plates).

All that’s left is to finish to your specifications. If you do this carefully I don’t see why you can’t get 50-100 years service (or until you sell the car) from your wheels.

Ford had the wheels pressed together on huge hydraulic presses because he was doing many more than 4,000 wheels every day, dipping each wheel into a barrel of water with paint floating on the surface… removing it from the barrel gives it a second coat of paint. Typical repair or home shops can’t obtain a huge wheel press so they do it differently. I would not recommend Ford’s painting technique either!

TH

[Scott_Conger]

I do not disagree that failing wheels should be rebuilt by a known expert. That said, the failure of that pretty blue wheel, by description, the failure and subsequent inspection of the other 3 wheels yielded the fact that entirely unsound wheels were cosmetically and unsafely restored by the previous owner and the true condition was not divulged. That is an entirely different story than a wheel that develops a loose fello and is otherwise sound, and none of us knows the general condition of Ben's wheel. Maybe it is completely shot, but by some advice, every single shiny wheel should be flagged at a tour until paint was scraped off to prove that the wood was good. When I gave my particular advice, I assumed that some modicum of evaluation would take place... evaluation of the totality of the condition would be made, and if done by the guy I am speaking of, it most certainly would.

Coincidentally, I have a bit of a conundrum, too: What exactly is one to do when a car with 6 year old rebuilt wheels is moved from FL to WY and develops a "creak" in 15% humidity? I have a '15 sitting in my barn in that exact condition. Shrinkage has allowed a tiny bit of movement between one fello and the rim as evidenced by paint failure. Shall I send it out after 6 years and have it rebuilt again, or am I allowed to band it and repress the rim on? If it happened on one, can the other 3 be far behind? Shall I send out all 4 wheels for re-rebuilding even though only 1 is showing an issue?

I will agree that perhaps 95+% of wheels like Ben is asking about should be dealt with professionally. My reasoning is that 50% of the wheels are too far gone to be repaired (as Russ' were) and 45% of them belong to owners who are simply not competent to make the repairs whether or not they admit it. Having been on a number of National Tours, my estimate of clearly faulty automobiles (for all reasons) allowed to tour is probably in the range of 10-15%. Regarding the remaining cars, if I really knew how worn the front ends were, had bands installed poorly and Rockies adjusted wrong, the number would probably jump up much more, and I have never heard that the only safe way to rebuild a front end, line a band or adjust a brake was to send it to an expert.

Common sense should prevail, and screwing a fello to a rim and letting the spokes dangle like loose baby teeth doesn't pass muster with me. Sending out a 6 year old "new" wheel with maybe 50 miles on it, to be fully rebuilt when it exhibits minor shrinkage doesn't pass set well either.

So, fair warning to you all: if you ever see me touring in my '15, keep far away, as once I get to it, I will have repaired my particular wheel as I described above.

[DanTreace]

That rim is heated and shrunk onto the felloe

That is the better method, shrink the rim to the felloe, then rivet for added security. Having Calimer’s do a set of 30 x 3 fronts for me now, pickup in Luray.

Am confident with my experience of inspecting a T wood wheel for safety, but aren’t confident , since no experience , of repairing a wood T wheel.

That where the skilled 35 years in making wood T wheels business makes me confident of what I, wife, and friends are riding on.

[George Mills]

Ben and Scott,

I'll share the story...take it for what it is worth.

My '15 use to have a bit of a quirk. Make a left turn at slow speed on gravel, and right in the middle the turn it would go hard left against the stops and then whip. Everyone said it was the way the tie rods were adjusted or maybe my axle was in backwards. NOPE!

Finally, I was convinced everything was tight and set correctly, just strong armed those turns with caution. Didn't happen all the time, just some time.

Then noticed the paint had let go between the rim and the fellow and I had a hmm moment. Rivet appeared tight but if I really pushed I thought I saw lateral movement. (Maybe loose Rivet?) So get into it...funny thing, Rivet heads were tight but once the wheels off and tire off I could really move it, only 1/16-1/8 but it moved. Rivet was firm on ends, but had sheared SPLIT in the middle! On the inside of the rim, the rivet head looked a bit like a mini burned valve, so I guess 100 years of turning chatter had taken its toll? It had been working on itself for a long time, I suppose and in the 20 years before I bought it, I know it had but 2-5 miles a year put on it, and before that it was a total garage queen, so was it just during my stewardship?

So, I had a spare wheel in the garage pile, correct spoke/felloe but with the more modern inner bearings. Swapped wheel hubs by pounding old one out on both, jacked the axle hub back in with all thread and washers instead of the normal carriage bolts. Mounted everything up good and tight...

The car has never locked hard left or jittered since...yea, I know...go figure!

[Scott_Conger]

George

failed paint between the fello and rim is a sure sign that movement of some amount is occuring and with a sheared rivet it is not surprising that you were getting some snatching of the steering wheel when turning

[RGould1910]

I've had the same experience as Terry. I purchase rolls of steel shim stock of various thicknesses (typically .012 " is needed) to cut straps to nail against the felloe. I use tiny nails with thin heads for obvious reasons.
I use thicker rivets than Ford used, 1/4" shank after turning down the heads to match the appearance of the originals. I also countersink the rivet holes in the rim so I can mash the stub ends flat against the rim and still have a good hold. I hold the head of the rivet against the horn of an anvil while pounding.
Sometimes I cut thru the adjoining end of the fellows with a hacksaw after removing the plates to allow a tiny bit more space for the steel shim.
I've probably done about a dozen this way and have no problems thus far.
There are still a lot of good wheels out there that can be saved.

[Farmer J]

I have fixed this problem like several of the others by using a roll of veneer from Lowes that has heat activated glue on one side. Use an iron to apply the veneer and hold it to the fellow. The heat from the rim will set the glue when shrunk onto the fellow. Truing the rim and installing the rivets finish the job.