Paint question

[Flyingpiper59]

Good evening forum chums, I hope that everyone is well…. I have another newbie question and I hope you will indulge me….. I’m going to repaint my 1927 model T Tudor in the original colors…..solid bone Car…. Mechanically very very above average ……So…..green up top and black down the bottom….. Regarding said black, do I go gloss black or some kind of satin….. I would like to thank you all in advance, yours Aye!……Ed

[John kuehn]

Looking at old photos of Model T’s that are apparently in great or new condition all the colors look shiny and not satin. Of course the photos are in back and white but you can see that they are glossy and not a satin or dull color. When it comes to paint colors on Model T’s there are different opinions as you will soon find out.

[George House]

Shiny black....Rock Moss Green, Brewster Green or Highland Green ? Ford used the latter. Google ‘mtfca 1927 green’

[Been Here Before]

Do with this as you want.

A previous post of the interior, back panel of a Model T Ford switch. To my knowledge this is the black as it came from the factory.

Yes, this is possible an original factory black.

(I would guess with the modern paint analysis to match, it may be possible to approximate original factory black from this piece.)

DSCN1620.JPG (72.15 KiB) Viewed 6250 times

[Craig Leach]

Hi Ed,
Go with gloss black. Are you going to paint it your self? If you are I have found a crutch that works good for me, I use tractor paint. Both my speedster & firetruck are painted with tractor paint. Speedster is John Deere yellow & the firetruck is International Red. A fellow Ter turned me on to this years ago when I asked about the beautiful paint on his speedster (red) I had already painted my speedster JD yellow because the paint came with the parts.
The paint is easy to apply & holds up well. Although colors are limited the same colors the tractor MFG's use. There are some very nice colors. best as I remember there are 2 greens JD & Oliver ( a very nice darker green ) 3 each yellows, blues, reds. 2 greys a white & a orange. There is probably more but not @ the Tractor supply I go to. They also have a hardener for one brand of paint. It's not real expensive $ 50-60 a gallon and they have a primer also. The real nice part is you can buy it in rattle cans and it will match if needed later. If you are having a professional paint it do not mention this post. None of the ones I've talked to will even spray it. it's well below there high standards of paint.
Craig.

[pron022020]

Most anything that looks satin is faded like old lacquers and enamels did over the years. Originally everything was shiny.

[Norman Kling]

I use catalized Acrylic Enamel. But I omit the clear coat. It holds up fine when usually parked inside the garage. When I wash the car, I just rinse off the mud or bugs and then use the car wash and wax solution in water. I get this stuff at the auto parts place. Just some in water with a sponge and wipe on using a little elbow grease in some locations where bugs are on the paint. Then wipe on a clean bath towel. I have never used rubbing compound or paste wax. This paint has held up for about 20 years and only need an occasional touch up on scratches or dings.
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

From 1927 Ford literature on Cimorelli's website:

1927 Ford Greater Value booklet:

"Beautiful color tones in satin finish now enhance the graceful body lines of Ford cars".

.... There is a lot more information on Ford's T-era painting methods and materials, but I don't remember where I came across it....

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

In 1924 they were very glossy when new, I would assume they would be through 1927 as well.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford described the color finishes on the late cars as "satin".

[TXGOAT2]

There may be more information in some of the Ford letters sent to dealers.

[jiminbartow]

High gloss. Any original glossy 100 year old paint will have dulled and oxidized over the years and can be revived to its’ original gloss with rubbing compound. Jim Patrick

[TXGOAT2]

Ford described the "new color finishes" as "satin' in 1927 Ford literature. I'm not sure if the black cars were satin, or if the black fenders and running boards were satin on the color finish cars. They don't look satin to me in many pictures.

[ThreePedalTapDancer]

Looking at this photo the body does look satin while the fenders appear glossy.

[Rich Eagle]

I mixed Van Sickle tractor paint to resemble The Green used on early Ts. It is easy to paint but dries slowly. I found it pretty durable. The gloss is there but not overpowering. Several have mentioned that it has just the right sheen for an old car.
It does depend what you want. I like it.

Someone who mixes paint could get it close to original by mixing a few colors.

[Steve Jelf]

Don't depend on names. One company's "forest green" is another company's "moss green" and yet another company's "elephant puke green". There are two ways of getting the right color.
1 Find an unfaded sample on some hidden part of the car and take it to a paint shop for a computer match;
2 Use the paint formulas listed in the encyclopedia.

Despite Ford's designation of satin in some literature, I go with satin for engine and chassis parts, and glossy for body parts.

[pron022020]

I don't think the late bodies were satin. Lacquer doesn't come out that dull ever. The picture might be before the final buffing, not sure of the process. The designation of satin was likely used to distinguish the newer lacquer body cars from the older enamel ones. If you study up on the Ford process for T's and A's you will find that they buffed most of the body parts which produced a high gloss and glass like finish.

[TXGOAT2]

The late Ford bodies in colors were painted with pyroxylin (Duco ?) paint. Evidently, they were not brought to a high polish at the factory. Duco will take a high polish. It's likely that some dealers polished new cars to increase visual appeal, or if a customer wanted it done. It's likely that well cared for cars soon attained a high polish if they were regularly maintained. Ford called the new color paint finishes "satin" in their advertising copy. I'd think they'd know what they were building and selling. A lot of period Ford advertising material and dealer correspondence/service bulliten material is available for review.

[John kuehn]

Interesting thread about paint colors as usual!
I wonder how the potential T buyers reacted to the satin paint shade if they were left as ‘satin’ and not buffed out. If I were buying a new car satin shaded paint wouldn’t be appealing to me. I’ve been to a few car shows and don’t recall noticing a restored car done in satin but there are probably some out there.

If Ford did use satin paints on his “improved” cars it sure didn’t help his sales. And then came the glossy Model A’s. And not many satin shaded cars after that. But that’s a guess!

[TXGOAT2]

Besides a cost saving, a satin finish obscures ripples in sheet metal surfaces such as are often found around windshield stanchions, fender brace rivets, bolts, etc.

[TXGOAT2]

See: www.oldcarbrochures.com

See also: Ford letters to dealers

[jiminbartow]

I don’t much care what Ford says about using satin paint. A good paint job is the most expensive and most noticeable job of any restoration and should not be taken lightly. For it can add to or detract from the value of your car. If you make the wrong decision here, by using satin paint, you will not be able to easily or inexpensively change it and you will have to live with it and regret it every time you look at it. Vintage cars painted with satin paint are not appealing to most Model T owners and do not illicit the wow factor that most vintage car owners seek. Additionally, a satin finish makes the paint look old and oxidized, as if it is in need of a new paint job. If I were seeking to buy another fully restored antique car, I would not buy it if it was painted with satin paint because like most people, it is just not attractive to me and I would not want to have to go through the tremendous expense of repainting it in the glossy finish that I and most prefer. In addition to driving it around, one of the enjoyable things in owning an antique car is polishing and waxing it and that cannot be done with a satin finish. I strongly suggest using a glossy finish. Jim Patrick

[jiminbartow]

When contemplating what is correct for our Model T’s based upon 100 year old bulletins, one must consider Ford’s motive behind those bulletins and if it is truly good for your Model T. Henry Ford was a very cheap man, always looking for ways to save money and his motives were not always to the benefit of the car’s appearance. Satin paint is cheaper and does not need to be polished and buffed out, which eliminated hundreds of assembly line workers that were fired because they were not needed. Satin paint does save money, but it also does not enhance the desirability of the product being sold and if they did switch to satin paint, Henry Ford probably lived to regret his decision due to reduced sales, which finally helped to cause the demise of the Model T. The Model T was not the most stylish car back in the 1920’s, but it did look good with a glossy paint job, but without that, it had little to offer in comparison to the the other automobile brands being sold, that had more to offer and that may have accelerated the inevitable demise. Don’t paint your car with a satin finish that will make your T look like the T’s that were overwhelmingly rejected by the public. Jim Patrick

[George House]

Hussah Jim ! Good for you ! I wholeheartedly agree

[kmatt2]

As has been said by others the body and hoods of the new 1926-27 Fords were painted in pyroxylin paint. The pyroxylin paint was not rubbed out at the factory leaving a satin surface. The fenders, splash aprons, and running boards were gloss black enamel as the prior cars were. The fact that the new 1928 Model A Ford factory finish had the pyroxylin paint rubbed out on the cars, but not on the trucks, says that customers didn’t much like the satin look. I would bet that for a extra charge many 1926-27 Fords were rubbed out by the dealers in order to make a car sale.

[TXGOAT2]

Anyone could polish a Duco-d car. People didn't buy Model T cars for style and glamorous paint. They bought them for inexpensive, reliable service. I'd bet that most brand-new Model Ts were dusty or muddy by the time they first reached a typical new owner's home. Dust, mud, snow, grasshoppers, children, and more awaited most Model Ts as soon as they left the dealer's lot, if not before. The Model A was a whole new ball game, designed to appeal to urbanites as well as to farm folk and commercial users, and the Model A had a much better chance of spending at least some time on paved roads and of not having to share an odorous barn with a bunch of cows and goats, if it had any shelter at all. Ford had pretty much saturated the utility vehicle market with the Model T. The Model A was a move up-market, made imperative by the mass migration of Americans to cities, vat improvements in the road network, denser traffic moving at higher speeds, and, of course, competition. Dodge Brothers also moved "uptown" with fancy colors and nicer appointments and new model year styling. I would call Henry Ford a practical man, not a cheapskate. The challenges encountered in raising production to meet demand, not cheapness, drove many changes in the Model T, as did materials supply issues that resulted from WWI and the explosive growth of both Ford and the entire auto industry.

[jiminbartow]

Here is a photo of a nicely painted 1927 Model T Fordor, which would have come off the assembly line like this with a Maroon body, black fenders and grey upholstery with thin maroon stripes. Your 1927 Tudor, which except for having 2 doors looks a lot like the Fordor, would have come off the assembly line with a green body, black fenders and grey upholstery with thin green stripes. Regardless of what Ford says, nothing is chipped in stone and it is strictly up to you as to what color or sheen you prefer. Since I like the maroon much better than the green, if I had a 1927 Tudor like yours, I would paint it the maroon, regardless of what Ford said simply because I think it looks better, will be viewed with much more appreciation by the public and may be more likely to attract interested viewers to get into the hobby themselves. Jim Patrick

PS. Imagine the beautiful highly reflective finish on the car below, as a dull, non-reflective finish and you can come to your own conclusion as to which selection is best for you and the appearance of your Model T’.

[TXGOAT2]

Some people insist on correct; most people follow their own preferences. The "satin" finish was low gloss, but not flat. Duco was a fast-curing, hard finish, and would easily take and hold a high shine. A car must have very straight sheet metal to look good in shiny paint. I don't think new Ts had perfect sheet metal, and normal use would soon take a toll on paint. More expensive cars had remedial work done on panels as needed prior to finish painting. Inexpensive cars had little or no metal prep work.

[TRDxB2]

A shiny showroom car may be from polishing as opposed to an assembly line finish

[John kuehn]

Yes! It just looks better.

[George Mills]

another old goats .02...

I am going to say that the use of 'satin' in marketing materials could just as well be a relative term. The enamels of the 1926 issue were in fact quite shiny when new as that is what the 'enamel process' was all about.

The late 26's and 27's were done with Pyroxylin based technology which was nitrocellulose mixed with a binder like camphor. I wasn't around to see a real '27 in real world when new...but as a kid a whole lot of things in and around our house just post WW2 were covered with the stuff! It was the vogue finish of the time, probably the govt had a use for nitrocellulose during the war and someone got factories on the cheap. My recollection is that the finish was more like a later Formica finish. Looked good, looked shiny because it reflected light well, but up close and personal was a bit 'oyster'

Marketing is semantics, so...who knows...just sharing recollections of my youth....

[jiminbartow]

Here is a properly painted 1927 Model T Tudor for you to compare with the Maroon 1927 Fordor to help determine which color you prefer most. Jim Patrick

88C8F6CF-B5D6-4EAE-8BF9-2291AABD7AC9.jpeg (72.46 KiB) Viewed 5854 times

1927 Tudor painted maroon

1927 Tudor advertisement

4625DF18-82A4-480E-A6DA-D5232B0C6A3F.jpeg (69.22 KiB) Viewed 5842 times

[TXGOAT2]

"If you prize it, SIMONIZE it!"

[TXGOAT2]

For detailed information on pyroxylin finish used on the late Ford Model Ts, refer to the Ford Service Bulletin for August, 1926. Full information is provided on how to apply and repair the pyroxylin, equipment required, and how to achieve different finish characteristics and levels of finish quality.

[Flyingpiper59]

Gentleman…..thanks for taking the time to type out all the great Commentary!… The good news is I’ve decided that I’m going to go with a gloss, the bad news is now I don’t know if it’s going to be green or maroon, LOL LOL have a great evening gentleman

[TXGOAT2]

You'd better spend extra time on getting the hood straight and on the fenders around the rivits and headlight bar areas. Keeping paint on the hood hinge areas and around the hood latches can be a challenge. It's a good idea to select tires that are not highly prone to picking up small pebbles and hurling them at your gleaming new paint job.

[DanTreace]

I am going to say that the use of 'satin' in marketing materials could just as well be a relative term. The enamels of the 1926 issue were in fact quite shiny when new as that is what the 'enamel process' was all about.

From the news reports back in 1926 with the 'new' finish on the Fords, the satin term is defined. Have spayed the old time lacquer on a '26 runabout and when coated the finish is satin. Then I rubbed out the finish to bit of a gloss. The Factory didn't want to spend rubbing out labor, so the cars came in satin, that is why you see the difference in old photos, the baked on black enamel fenders stand out glossy compared to the body and hood.

And note the copy that says the new colors are in shades like the 'regular' colors.....those regular were the previous enamel colors.

[John kuehn]

So Ford was using the so called satin finish as a test case to see if the public would like it? Thanks Dan for the research in finding those pics and information.

This shows that Henry was grasping at straws to try to keep the Model T from losing sales which came to its end a year later! I’ll bet the dealers wondered about it when they first saw the satin finished cars. And the customers? This was a mistake to be sure and was not a good idea for Henry’s T.

Evidentially the idea went away with the introduction of the glossy Model A’s.

[NY John T]

Beautiful example of satin finish on body and gloss finish on fenders, windshield stansions etc

[TXGOAT2]

The Model A was a much more highly styled car than were even the "improved" Model Ts. Color and styling were prominent selling points. The more robust A bodies were produced on new equipment, and had generally stronger body sheet metal parts with more moldings, embossed, and compound curved areas than the T had, as well as fewer exposed fasteners. That resulted in a car that wore shiny paint better than the typical T. They sold at a higher price point, too, and were well worth it. Dodge Brothers had abandoned the one model, no-model-year, durable, practical car policy by 1928, and Ford also moved away from it in 1928. By 1932, Ford was deep into styling and model year changes and multiple lines of cars. Entry level carmakers who could not offer upmarket products faded away. Installment payment plans made it perhaps too easy for people to buy cars they could not afford. Some came to regret it. In fact, a great many did.

[John Codman]

I agree with Jim. If you use a satin (semi-gloss) paint on the car you will regret it, and you will regret it even more when the time comes to sell the car. I also would be careful about using any part on the car except the outer body as a paint guide. I remember reading that Ford used about 30 different coatings on the model T. A paint that is ideal for covering the back of the instrument cluster may not be suitable for the body's exterior.

[TXGOAT2]

If you can obtain period-formula paint, you can paint the car as Ford did, and then choose whether to polish it or not. The Duco paint would take a beautiful polish, if desired, and was very durable if taken care of. If such paint is available, a high end restoration shop would know where to obtain it. I suggest reading the Ford Service Bulletin (August, 1926) for information. The color finish cars were painted by hand with spray guns. At least two options were available for obtaining a high gloss finish, desired.

[TXGOAT2]

I suspect there are some good reasons why Ford did not polish out the color finish cars at the factory. Among them would be the time and labor cost, and equipment cost and space required. Another would be the possibility of soiling or damage to the finish before the car reached the customer. By 1926, Ford was looking ahead to refitting production facilities to accomodate the Model A, and probably did not want to invest in an elaborate paint department to accommodate the color-finish portion of Model T production. As it stood, you could choose to have a shiny, color finished Model T delivered by your Ford agent at the lowest possible cost, or you could buy a color-finish T out of regular stock and have it Simonized, perhaps at a saving, or you could shine it up yourself and save paying others to do it. Looks like a sensible plan on Ford's part to me, all things considered.

[TRDxB2]

Prior to "spray guns" the cars were flow painted. Excess paint captured underneath, then pumped up above and reflowed, by gravity. Notice the guy on the left doing the back. Picture is circa 1914

[George House]

Very interesting picture of Model T body painting. I’ve never seen that before. Thanks for sharing Frank. I’ve always known paint was fairly flowed on and recovered for reuse - but painted after upholstery applied ? My biggest disappointment in T restoration was stripping original paint off my 2nd owner ‘19 centerdoor and repainting. After seeing the above picture of 2 employees flowing paint, I realize now why there was factory paint runs on both rear quarter panels. On, how I regret stripping original paint.

[pron022020]

Pyroxylin Lacquer has not been produced for a while. You would not want to use any kind of lacquer anymore on a car because of the modern paints we have. Lacquer is durable, but it dries so hard it cracks and checks. This is even more of a problem with acrylic lacquer which is the only type still around. The other issue is you have to constantly buff it to retain its shine. These are all problems that don't exist in modern urethane single stage. Done properly, it is just as strong and holds its own.

This is just my own experience back from the days of spraying cars with lacquer up until now. I think a lacquer job is an extremely poor decision these days given all of the money and work it takes to prep for paint only to use something like that. If it was as great as everybody is saying, why do very manufacturers and no car makers use it anymore?

[Luxford]

Like all things progress produces better products. Fords Japan black type paint was the fastest drying product at the time and could be flowed on, Pyroxylin lacquer was a step up it dried even faster but needed buffing to obtain the final gloss. Hold the spray gun too far away from the surface and it will dry before it reaches the surface. It also was not real good at resisting weather conditions and colors faded, if it was white new it would be yellow within months. It was easy to repair.
You had to spray several thin coats to build up enough thickness and if it was damaged a small repair could be done quickly and no evidence of it would show. Acrylic Lacquer was a further step up. It is based on perspex an acrylic plastic like glass which is great at resisting weather especially the sunlight and colors did not fade nearly as badly. It also was terrific as a clear so metallic colors became popular. Being a lacquer it also required several coats and also required buffing had to be applied with large amounts of solvent which found it being banned because of the solvent polluting the atmosphere in some places.
So science moved to a new enamel type paint, a base one which covers with one or two coats and a clear coating on top to supply gloss, add a hardener and some heat and it was rock hard in about 30 minutes. Every year these paints are improved moving towards water as the solvent and they last longer and are far more rugged resisting scratches, sunlight, heat, acids and all other types of problems one can encounter. As mentioned preparation is the biggest expense and finishing with a top quality paint is a sensible solution to preserving the vehicle but an owner has the choice.

The old flow coating like brush painting allows the painter to control exactly where the paint lands, a skilled applier would be able to coat the body without touching the upholstery it was done this way as the workers didn't have to work further on the car and damage the new paint which would be soft for an extended period.

[jiminbartow]

42 years ago in 1980, I sprayed my 1926 coupe with Imron, a 2 part gloss black epoxy that was made by DuPont and it looks like it was sprayed yesterday. Unfortunately, due to ingredients that were banned by the government, it is no longer made, which it too bad because it was the best and most durable paint I ever used. Jim Patrick