Band Wear

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Fri May 31, 2019 3:35 pm

Recently, while changing the oil in my 1926 TuDor, I noticed that the low speed band spring was compressed more than the other two. I saw this as a indication that the low speed band may be worn. Since I have not opened up the engine in a while, I removed the engine to make a few clearance checks and checks for damage. I use wooden bands. Once the low speed band was out, I noticed an odd wear pattern on the face of the band. I also found that the band was split long wise. Looking closely, I believe the band was not clamping the drum uniformly. Seems that the band edge that is closer to the reverse drum was making drum contact before the other edge. Using a Vernier (I know that measuring wood with a veriner is not accurate, but I tried to apply equal pressure on each measurement and only considered average valves of many measurements), I measured the wood thickness every 45°. I also have a new band which I also measured for comparison. I found that the band edge close to the reverse drum is 0.025-0.030" thinner than the other side and maybe 0.010" thinner than a new band, wear. Trying to figure out why the band wear is askew as it is, I looked at the metal sheath of the band. It is not twisted and out of round. All the rivet were tight. The other bands do not show this wear. I did notice that the pedal shaft is rather sloppy in the hogs head bore. I would estimate that the low speed shaft bore has about twice the wear as the other pedals. I will have to remove the shaft to exactly measure it.
The picture doesn't show the wear in a lot of detail, but.......
Twist wear.JPG
Twist wear.JPG (26.46 KiB) Viewed 2130 times
What do you think, could this pedal wobble cause this type of wear on the band? Any other ideas or things to look at? Thanks Mike


Norman Kling
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Band Wear

Post by Norman Kling » Fri May 31, 2019 4:09 pm

I would suspect the band is overlapping the reverse drum and when you push the low pedal, you are hitting the reverse drum. Even when the band is clamped on the low drum the reverse drum is still rotating, and so you have some additional wear on that part of the band.
Norm


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Fri May 31, 2019 4:25 pm

You have a point, but look closely at the picture. The wear pattern extends to the middle of the band. I don't think that there is that much room to move. In my mind if the low speed band were riding on the reverse band the wear would be narrower, maybe 1/4". I'm still leaning toward band twist. Thanks Mike


rgould1910
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:16 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Gould
Location: Folsom, CA

Re: Band Wear

Post by rgould1910 » Fri May 31, 2019 6:05 pm

I suspect the problem has to do with excess wear in the pedal shaft and probably a worn pedal cam bracket. They can both be replaced with NORS without removing the hogshead. If you can find a pedal with a better cam so much the better.


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Fri May 31, 2019 6:41 pm

Both the shaft and cam were replaced a couple years ago. I think the real problem is the hogs head shaft hole. Maybe I should look for a better one. I wonder can the hole be sleeved? Has anyone done that? Or are there enough hogs heads not to bother. Thanks Mike


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:43 pm

This morning, I measured the clearance between the shaft and hogshead hole. There seems to be between 0.008 and 0.009" clearance. I cut a 0.003" steel shim and fitted it around the circumference of the hole. This really tightens up the shaft. I think I'm going to try this for a while and see if this makes a difference. Thanks for the help Mike


Norman Kling
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Band Wear

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:54 pm

I hope the shim does not work into the transmission. Remember that every time you push the pedal the shaft moves inward. I would suggest that you either replace the hogs head, or take the hogshead to a machine shop which can install a sleeve and bore it to the proper clearance.
Norm


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:07 pm

Didn't think of that. I cut the shim so that it was 2 1/2" long and 5/8" in diameter. You are right, the shim could move, but since it is long I think, should it start to creep into the transmission, it will meet the notch and stop. But...... I have an old cracked hogshead that I can play with. Maybe I'll try and bore out the old hole and fit some sleeve bearings in the hogs head. If that works on the bad hogshead, then I'll try the good one. Thanks for the help. Mike


Allen Brintnall
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:00 pm
First Name: Allen
Last Name: Brintnall
Location: Joplin, Missouri

Re: Band Wear

Post by Allen Brintnall » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:04 pm

I have a related band question. My engine is just about ready to install after 30 years of inactivity. The bands look almost new. The rivits are imbedded, drums smooth with no cracks etc. Here is my question, after 30 years of just laying in the shop, will they have deteriorated with age where they will start coming apart when put into use? I don't want to spend another$100 if I don't have to. Maybe a poor question, but I wanted some feedback. Thanks. Allen SW Mo.


Bill Crosby
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:33 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Crosby
Location: Webster, NY
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Band Wear

Post by Bill Crosby » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:55 pm

To fix leaky or sloppy peddle shafts in hogs heads I have bored out the holes and pressed in bronze (not brass) bushings to tighten them and used O rings to keep them from seeping. I have done dozens for my customers with 100% success.


Mark Osterman
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:18 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Osterman
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Band Wear

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:04 am

Do you have a standard charge for that set up?


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:25 am

If I said brass, I meant bronze. Ordered some bushings and maybe later this I will try to fit them in the hogshead. I don't mind the oil leaks. That means to me that the bushing is getting oiled.
Allen, my experience with old band material is that it generally is dry rotted. They may last a while, but my bet is that you will be opening up the transmission soon to reline the bands. Probably better to reline them now and not get stuck on the road side because your low speed band unraveled. Thanks Mike


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:40 pm

Well today the low speed pedel hole was bored out and a bronze bushing was installed. The hogshead was clamped down, the center of the hole was found. A drill bit removed 75% of the material and then a bore opened the hole so that the bushing could be installed. This made a vast improvement. Mike
Attachments
20190607_091548.jpg


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Band Wear

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:59 pm

Mike

good for you
the vast majority of hog's heads are totally shot and are NOT remedied when bands are changed. A properly repaired car in all aspects is so much nicer to drive than most Ts on the road. The hog's head is an incredibly overlooked part during repair phase. Even rebuilt engines, if not done by a T specialist, will sport a worn out hog's head in many if not most cases.

The sad thing is that many many owners have only driven 1 car...theirs, and assume that their car is performing as new. They are not.

You're going to love how the pedal feels under your foot...again, Kudos.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Topic author
mike zahorik
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:54 pm
First Name: mike
Last Name: zahorik
Location: usa
Contact:

Re: Band Wear

Post by mike zahorik » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:10 pm

Scott, you have a point where most people only drive one Model T and then not for very many miles each season. With that little experience, it is hard to know exactly what is normal and what is not, unless it is really bad. I drive my car a lot, but only on occasion get the chance to drive someone else's car. I certainly hope this helps, Thanks for the help Mike.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic