Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

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Rich Bingham
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Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:18 am

Have you had a cracked or failed drum at any time in your Model T driving experience ??
If so, what kind of lining was in place when it failed ?
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by John Codman » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:10 am

Not yet.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Adam » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:16 am

I’ve repaired several engines with cracked low speed drums and Kevlar lining. I have not yet seen any cracked low or reverse drums.

The problem IS NOT the Kevlar linings. As a matter of fact, I highly recommend Kevlar linings.

The cause is is generally one or a combination of the following 3:
1) Adjusting the bands too tight.
2) Driving the car wrong (slipping the band to regulate speed)
3). Clearance or geometry issues inside the transmission that were not realized during assembly.

If you do any of these things with cotton bands, they glaze or rapidly wear (in the case of item 3, sometimes only in the “problem spots”), thus saving the drums, but causing frequent “band issues”.

The low speed drum has a higher tendency than the other drums to fracture for two reasons:
1) Its web is off to one side and doesn’t heat-sink the band surface evenly.
2). It is the middle drum and does not get as much (cooling) oil flow to the webs and inner drum parts as the other drums do.

A couple years ago, I began installing new ductile iron low speed drums from Nolting Machine in every complete engine and transmission assembly I build. It is an extra measure of durability and insurance in case the end user doesn’t drive the car right, or makes incorrect adjustments. The new ductile iron drums are able to withstand extreme overheating and still maintain their structural integrity.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:19 am

No. And actually I haven’t seen a cracked drum in any of the old transmissions I’ve taken apart. Worn out clutch teeth, yes
Worn band surfaces, yes

Cracked drums recently in other people’s cars, yes


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by FundyTides » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:34 am

Had a cataclysmic failure of a drum years ago in our 27 T. Just driving into the garage to store the car for the for the winter when there was a crash and everything locked up. Dragged it in and took it apart. I had never taken a T transmission apart before and I don't even know what drum it was but it broke completely. I took it apart and salvaged some parts from a spare transmission I got somewhere. More good luck than good management but it all went back together ok and gave years of service. As I remember it we had previously relined the bands with Scandinavia linings.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by George House » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:56 am

Yes...and Kevlar. but I’m quite sure it wasn’t the band material’s fault. I very much liked Adam’s input above. And it was the low speed drum. Have also had all 8 rivets in the tail shaft/brake drum fail simultaneously.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by John kuehn » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:09 pm

Band material and broken drums comes up now and then and opinions vary from the type of lining, misadjustment, type of drum material, transmission parts failure and you name it.

One person will say his transmission failed because of a certain type of lining he was using and create an idea that you had better not use that lining.

Drums were failing for years using cotton and others have failed using Kevlar, wood and etc.

Driving habits play a HUGE part with Model T longivity just as it does with today’s cars. People can wear out modern cars quickly and it’s usually caused by lack of maintenance and bad driving habits. You can get by with our modern cars longer than you can a Model T. But just not as long. And the first thing that usually goes is the transmission. Just the way it is.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Erik Barrett » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Yes, it has happened to me. About 30 years ago I was driving my dump truck loaded heavy to our club swap meet. It had a Ruckstell, Warford, and no auxiliary brakes. They were not available new at that time and I had been unable to procure an original set. Spare me the lecture, we all know it was a dangerous situation. I knew it at that time and found out just how dangerous it was. Coming down a long hill into town I was keeping the speed down alternating between the brake and reverse pedals. Yeah, with the benefit of experience I know that’s not a good idea either. I touched the reverse pedal at one point and may as well have pulled the pin on a grenade. The sound was apocalyptic. The drivetrain locked, now my rear wheels are skidding and the truck is beginning to swap ends on the highway. To restore control my only option was to slap the Warford into neutral. Now the ride really began. The effect of the “emergency” brake was minimal at best. I rode that sucker about half a mile and blew through two red lights with my air horns tied wide open at about 50 mph. I owe my survival to the fact it was 5AM on a Sunday and there was near zero traffic. The devastation was complete. Punched holes in the pan and hogshead, broke the cylinder block and crankshaft. Almost every moving part was scrapped. After that my father said even when I put in another engine I wasn’t going to drive it again until I had some kind of brakes.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:27 pm

I assume the question is prompted by my adventure Thursday afternoon, so yes, I've had a drum failure and the lining was Kevlar. But I think Adam is right on the subject. If drum cracks are caused by overheating, and overheating is caused by friction, and friction is caused by the drum moving against the lining (slipping), then allowing only enough slipping to get the car moving without stalling and then stomping down hard on the pedal (no friction when the drum is stationary) should not produce enough heat to be a problem. I think the perceived connection between Kevlar and broken drums may be a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. The rooster crows and the sun rises, therefore the rooster causes the sun to rise. Kevlar bands are present and the drum breaks, therefore the Kevlar caused the break. I think the other reasons Adam listed are far more likely.


I have not yet seen any cracked low or reverse drums.
I haven’t seen a cracked drum in any of the old transmissions I’ve taken apart.

That's amazing. After checking a dozen or so reverse drums and finding all of therm cracked I gave up and bought one of Dave Nolting's new ones. I may do the same with this low drum.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:32 pm

4 T's
Lots of miles
Kevlar
No broken drums
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:37 pm

Steve
Further to your “philosophizing “, perhaps my “luck” is because all my transmissions were made in Canada. Just possibly they were better made. Certainly nothing that I can easily prove (or disprove)!!

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:46 pm

This should become an interesting thread, to say the least !

Being in the T repair business for 30 + years & in the hobby for over 40 +, I've not experienced any drum failures myself BUT have serviced several customers' transmissions to replace broken drums & low drums at that. Several were running Kevlar & inexperienced T drivers - can't say I recall and drum failures from cotton.

Steve J.'s reference to cracked reverse drums is correct - most have web cracking due to the size of the gear in relation to the connecting webbing to drum surface and the fact of the old wife's tail to brake down long grades alternating the reverse pedal & brake pedal - that's a flippin' wreck just waiting to happen !


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:47 pm

Further to the Kevlar thing. I use KEVLAR for the brake band as it takes the most “ABUSE “. The low and reverse I find that almost never need to adjust a cotton or wooden band. Being inherently CHEAP (I am a model T guy after all), I find that spending the extra for the Kevlar brake ONLY, saves me money!!

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:48 pm

Addendum: I have replaced cracked brake drums that had Kevlar running against them.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Tim Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:19 pm

So nearly 100% of the drum failures in this thread had Kevlar bands...

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by DanTreace » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:44 pm

Just one cracked drum so far, acquired the T in 1977, always ran Scandinavia linings. Rebuilt in 1977, all drums looked good, but back then didn’t dye test or magna-flux.

On replacing brake lining that went fast (those tar baby ones) in late ‘90s, found crack halfway across the reverse drum surface. Pulled and replaced that drum and installed Kevlar, been doing just fine.

Have checked drum surfaces yearly since by inspection and rolling over slowly with starter motor, surfaces seem OK, but can’t check webs.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:48 pm

TIM

WELCOME!

I figured you'd arrive sooner or later, and without any information, either. Perfect!
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Tim Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:57 pm

Re-read my post- it contains information compiled from this thread...
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:00 pm

3 piece drum 2.jpg
I did have kevlar bands, but that was not what caused it! When I first placed the new bands, I noticed the low drum was bluish color. This was caused by overheating. It finally led to the catastrophy shown in the picture.
The actual cause was worn low cam and low notch. These are the tapered parts which cause the low pedal to move right when you push the low pedal in. They were so worn that the band could not be tightened enough to keep the band from slipping. It would operate when the pedal was below the level of the floorboard. Consequently, in order to get the low to work at all required tightening until the band was dragging even when in neutral, high or reverse. Of course it required frequent adjustments to even have a low gear and finally the drum collapsed. When I pushed the low pedal, the car skidded to a stop and could not be moved even in neutral or by pushing without jacking one rear wheel with a rolling jack.
After I replaced the drum, the shaft, the cam and the notch, I still have kevlar and no recurrance of the problem.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Adam » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:59 pm

I have to clarify my post that I made near the top of this thread. When I was using the general term “cracked drums”, I was specifically talking about “big obvious cracks” in the surface the lining runs against. Not the micro cracks in the webs or around rivets usually found upon close examination or Magnafluxing! The answer to that is: “Probably one third to one half of the T trans drums I inspect have cracks”.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Terry_007 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:24 pm

Cracked a reverse drum on a tour several years ago. Kevlar bands, but crack was due to my using reverse to help slow the car descending a steep hill. I knew heat would be a factor and although I was trying to be careful, I wasn't so fortunate. I checked it out in the parking lot that evening, then carefully avoided using reverse and finished the tour. When we got home I pulled everything apart, did a thorough check, magnifluxed everything and reassembled with new KEVLAR bands. Have a lot of miles since then and all is well, I like the Kevlars and would recommend using them. Just be sure your drums are good to begin with and don't pretend reverse is a brake. I like Steve's rooster analogy.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Mark Osterman » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:47 pm

When drums crack due to excessive heat aren’t they always discolored (blue) as a result? Have never had a drum crack (knock on wood) in the 37 years I’ve been driving Ts. Have used the vendors cotton linings up to about five years ago when I switched to Kevlar. I had a chattering problem with my recent rebuild which seems to be lessened to negligible by switching back to straight 30 weight oil.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by DanTreace » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:08 pm

On a tour, participant was having trouble with free neutral, T was creeping ahead.

Once inspection cover was lifted could determine.

Earlier complaint was of poor low pedal, judged from worn and thin Kevlar lining, so the adj. screw was turned in a few times over a period of time to obtain good low gear..could see that.
fullsizeoutput_d40.jpeg

Closer inspection shows reason for lack of free neutral, low band was drawn up very tight. And there is a crack in the drum surface.

fullsizeoutput_d3f.jpeg
So, drum replacement is needed.

Was the culprit of the over time tightening of the low pedal ... for thin linings ...due to existing crack in the low drum that shaved off Kevlar?

Or was the final tightening of the low pedal the cause of the cracked drum?

Have my opinion the crack was there for a while, and constant usage of that drum and adjustments just led to the final result.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Thorlick » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:32 pm

I would like to be proudly listed as an "antii-Kevlar" person. As I mentioned in Steve Jelf's thread I have had 4 drums break.

First I would like to mention that pro-Kevlar and anti-Kevlar attitues are religious affiliations. So this post will not change nor affect either disciple's conclusions.

There was a time about 25-20 years ago when I used to use Kevlar bands being fully aware that they had a reputation of trashing transmissions. Some of you may remember that the Scandanavia bands and the wooden bands had become unobtainable. After destroying 4 transmissions with the Kevlar I taught myself to steam bend my own bands. I've been using wood ever since finding it much more convenient to buy from Guinn than to make my own.

Look back on the old forums, or on the archival disks I used to provide MTFCA members when I was helping to moderate this forum, you will see that with one exception of a reported drum loss on cotton, all the failures reported have been with Kevlar. Back then asking all my MTFCA and HCCA buddies I found that all of the failure they had seen were with the Kevlar linings.

First I want to talk about broken drums: Drums tend to crack and break when subjected to high temperatures. Broken drums have happened since even before the T was produced. Re: model T drums those that were flawed or weak would have broken no matter what lining was in used and most of them are gone having broken in use and been culled out. This accounts for the stories of drums broken with cotton linings, they would have broken with anything.

Next lets talk about high temperatures. You keep heating any drum up and eventually you will destroy it. Cotton and wood linings will wear out or burn out and fail when they get too hot resulting in the need to reline the band. My way of thinking is that they were the weak link. The fact your drum did not break but ruined the lining means that the expendable nature of the lining has saved your transmission. If one could find a lining not susceptible to high temperatures then the lining will outlast all the others, theoretically giving a lifetime of use. Kevlar is such a lining.

The problem is that the Kevlar does not know when to quit. If something goes wrong it sticks in there whilst the drum heats up, and up and up and up. Look at that blue drum above it took a buttload of heat to do that before the drum finally exploded. So this lining (Kevlar) is capable of producing ridiculously high temperatures and is back culling out drums which cannot withstand ridiculous temps. Again this may be good, when all the "weak drums" are gone then all T's will be safe to be driven with Kevlar. Only thing is we will have destroyed most of the remaining T drums.

The ridiculous heat can be caused by a light touch on the pedals, letting them drag. Or a band adjusted too, loose so you can't stop it from dragging with proper pedal technique. Or dancing on the pedals and dragging this then that one. Another way is to have them adjusted too tight so they are in full time drag mode except for when the pedal is in use (that's how I blew up my reverse drum).

In the 2000 convention in Reno a friend of mine an I went off-roading up huge dirt hills in the morning before the tour. To get up that last STEEP hill I slipped and pumped my low pedal. I got to the top... one of the most stupid things I can remember doing. Later that day the low drum exploded while driving on the flats just as I pulled in to the National Automobile Museum.

Steve mentioned loosing rivets on his linings. About 23 years ago a friend with a gorgeous 1911 touring car decided he was tired of changing cotton linings and fell prey to the Kevlar disciples indoctrination. He had a little piece of the end of the band come loose (loose rivets?). It folded under and blew up the transmission. If Steve realized he was loosing rivets I am sure he would have stopped and pulled the bands. Often the way you find out there is a band problem is the most expensive way... a broken drum.

So a screw-up with any band can be a problem with cotton or wood the wrong adjustment, driving, or anything will wear out the lining which serves as the sacrificial link. If anything goes wrong with Kevlar linings things get hot, hotter, hotter, HOTTER!!! BANG! a destroyed drum, transmission , or engine.

Years ago Reid Welch was reporting on all the things he did with his engine and transmission, gluing all kinds of things with epoxy etc. He used Kevlar linings and had good results, until the lever he had linked to the brake pedal or the pedal or something rubbed on the floor boards and ended up causing the Kevlar to drag and destroy his drum.

It comes down to if you drive and do everything perfectly... install and adjust and drive perfectly, you will love Kevlar as you rarely have to adjust or replace the linings. If anything goes wrong with the car or installation or adjustment, a newby tries to drive your car, you wife wants to try it, your band wears and you don't notice it because you think Kevlar can't wear... anything and bang! The sacrificial link is no longer the lining, it is the drum and engine. This is why I will not Use Kevlar.

Like Steve you can have wonderful luck with your Kevlar linings... until suddenly bang! Steve should have stopped when he noticed the band needed more adjustment than usual. Well, that is wrong, he should have stopped before that because, by the time the band was wearing it was because the drum was already ruined. So the bottom line is use the Kevlar linings and enjoy the freedom from adjustments, just stop using them right before they fail breaking a drum. You will know when they are going to fail ... just when you are slipping bands, braking with reverse, etc. Or when something is going wrong... WAIT... no one can know when something is going to go wrong, you can only know after it has gone wrong. With that in mind I would rather loose a cotton or wood liner than loose a 100 year old transmission drum or engine.

I feel I have given Kevlar a fair trial, breaking 4 drums... low and reverse. Since going with wood I have not lost any other drums. You can see I am an Anti-Kevlar guy...and proud to be as long as my experience can be used to help folks preserve their antique machinery. I hate to see folks like Steve sitting on the side of the road contemplating having to pull their engine and look for replacement transmission drums!

Oh, you can listen the the many folks who are using Kevlar bands and love them. They can be happy with them now... but wait years and eventually they may learn differently... I hope not! Someday they may become someone who used to use Kevlar linings... been there and done that!

Respectfully submitted.TH
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:39 pm

Dan

something else that shows on your photo is alternately insufficient "stick out" of band material, and far too excessive stick out, depending on which band you look at. Steve's showed excessive stick out, too.

If the band (regardless of cotton or Kevlar) is not installed properly, ie with a very tightly compacted weave, bands can act very strangely. I once got a car in that had dragging bands, yet mushy pedals. As installed in the car, I found the band material nearly met in the center and when removed, the band material stretched from rivet to rivet...there was clear air between the material and steel band. Wrongwrongwrong.

I have no idea what caused Steve's problem, but it is certain that Improper material installation and worn out hogs heads have been breaking drums since Henry's engineers designed them. Dave Huson used to say that he'd go through many many transmissions and find mostly broken low drums, and these transmissions gave their lives long before the advent of Kevlar.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:07 pm

Terry

I agree with all of your statements about Kevlar being a producer of heat, and all the other stuff you have posted. It's tough tough stuff and requires the car and driver to be up to snuff.

My question would be, to what do you attribute your 4 broken drums (which might be an all-out individual record) where others have put many thousands of miles on their Kevlar without a bit of trouble? All things being equal, I'd say you had remarkably bad luck, or others have tremendous good luck. Frankly, I don't believe luck had anything to do with it one way or another in breakage or non-breakage. I suspect something was contributing to the Kevlar's heat build up, but why speculate? Kevlar won't work for you, that's clear. You certainly gave it the Old College Try.

There is not a doubt in my mind that Kevlar can be harder on drums than cotton or wood. Poor installation, worn out hog's heads, and crummy driving styles combine with Kevlar to be a bad thing. Attending lots of tours has shown me that many or maybe most drivers have not a clue as to how to drive the car as designed. If a person cannot lock their car into low gear on a flat paved road at a dead idle, then they were taught how to drive wrong. If they typically leave a parking space with noise, drama and mayhem, then they probably should ditch their Kevlar while the car is still motivating.

It will be a rare person who will admit to installing linings wrong, not restoring the hog's head, or not knowing how to drive their car. For those instances of spontaneous failure under perfect conditions, I rather suspect that the preponderance of Kevlar-associated failures is strictly related to the preponderance of Kevlar in use. No amount of crowing makes the sun rise.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by AdminJeff » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:10 pm

Yes. Not just cracked, exploded. While doing 40mph, so not under stress so to speak.you can see the wear line in the center of the drum, and when I got the car I wondered about that wear line.

And they were not kevlar bands. Have Kevlar now.
The pieces ended up everywhere in the motor and mostly in the bendix cover. You can’t imagine the racket when it let loose...

The first pic was taken the day I got the car and you can clearly see the wear line.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Tim Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:40 pm

Well said Terry. I lost count of the number of people on this thread that had drum failure while using kevlar. It's also amusing how almost everyone won't attribute the failure to Kevlar. I've been saying for years that Kevlar is stronger than steel and potentially harmful to T drums. Guys who swear by them love it that kevlar doesn't need to be adjusted nearly as often as cotton and I believe this is because the Kevlar material is not wearing out and instead attacking the drum. I've had great success using cotton and believe it is the safest and best choice because it takes the abuse rather than the drum.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Thorlick » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:55 pm

Jeff,

Wow that stuff in the Bendix cover is impressive. Mag contact, magnet keeper, and shards. They don't look like drum shards, but I have to believe you on that.



Scott,

I am sure that early on I didn't round the bands as carefully as I should have. I suspect that was the cause of the reverse drum loss. That one low drum was due to dragging the band on that huge hill. On the other two I am no longer able to remember the cause after more than 15 years if I ever did.

I have never said that I didn't do something wrong or poorly. What I maintain is that something went wrong. If something goes wrong you end up with a destroyed drum or engine. I fully expect things to go wrong in the future for me. When they do go wrong I want the engine and transmission to have a good chance of survival. I really don't mind having to get dirty-greasy to change out a band when I know the alternative is replacing the transmission.

The Kevlar folks know they are perfect and nothing can or will go wrong. That is why they love the Kevlar linings. Since they are perfect they can enjoy the work saving property of the long Kevlar life. Personally I am a bit sick of seeing others suffer the eventual loss of their transmissions needlessly when it becomes evident to those of us who have experienced it that something was not perfect.

So I feel Kevlar linings is perfect for perfect folks in a perfect world. As I don't believe the folks with model T's are perfect and their installation, adjustment and driving of them is always perfect I feel it is lunacy to needlessly subject your car to that risk.

I vastly prefer to go with materials which are forgiving than with high tech solutions with absolutely no margin for error. I admit it, I make mistakes. I don't purposely put myself in front of a loaded gun believing it can never go off by itself or by mistake.

Modern cars are pretty foolproof. Last weekend I had to rewire the 7 contact socket on my truck and replace a melted grounding wire. I also had to find where Toyota hid the towing fuses. If modern car engineers were half as perfect as our Model T owners they wouldn't bother to install fuses. Fuses protect our modern cars from disasters if something goes wrong. Forgiving linings can protect your model T if something goes wrong.

As I said before there are Kevlar religion zealots, and anti-Kevlar religion zealots. I am happily in the latter group and know full well that I will never convert the former to the latter. However occasionally transmission drum replacement can convince some folks to a religious conversion.

I completely believe the above, but hey, I make mistakes!

IMHO,TH
Terry Horlick, Penn Valley, (Northern) CA
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by DanTreace » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 pm

The band lining material is just one factor.

Different materials have been used. And as Scott posted, broken drums have been around long since Kevlar.

And Ford didn't use plain cotton either......the woven material for Ford linings over a long time contained a percentage of asbestos. That is a pretty rock hard fiber ;)


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Dan B » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:07 pm

Yes, Kevlar.

I put in Guinn wood bands after the transmission rebuild.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Tim Moore » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:56 pm

Funny stuff to read here year after year. Dance with the devil and pay the price. There is an obvious conclusion regarding kevlar that has been known for many years. It is "bullet proof" and used for helmets and vests but in a model t transmission not a wise choice. Regardless of adjustment or driving habits it is not good to have a grinding wheel on your bands.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by DanTreace » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:19 pm

Any band lining will wear the metal surface of a drum. The physics is friction. Metal gives. Drum surfaces wear down. Can be more rapid by poor rivet technique or sprung metal bands, worn pedal cams, etc. or driver allowances too 8-) .


My brand new cast iron drum surface was worn to finger nail hitting grooves, where the Guinn wood band oil relief rides on the smooth new drum surface. Proof that drums wear down, and cannot last forever. Amazing to me that many drums have lasted 90+ years in our Fords! Some are in need of replacement, and you find that when an old one cracks.


IMG_9850.JPG
Low wood lining with its imprint of slightly worn down grooves beside the oil relief.


Wood wears metal too, why wood workers have to re-sharpen turning tools from time to time.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:25 pm

Dan B

looking at the pits and rough edges on those drums, Kevlar was the least of your worries. Hopefully the Guinns have turned out to be what you'd hoped for.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by AdminJeff » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:06 am

Thorlick wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:55 pm
Jeff,
Wow that stuff in the Bendix cover is impressive. Mag contact, magnet keeper, and shards. They don't look like drum shards, but I have to believe you on that.
Yup, that’s drum material. Anyone know what the bands are in those pics? Wood?

I’m monitoring the wear on the new trans with the Kevlar and so far I see no wear after a couple thousand miles (I drive this car every day, and hard- a mile of steep low band hill each time). I’m honestly of the opinion that the last failure was the PO’s driving style and wood? Bands...

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Duey_C » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:58 am

Nope not yet. '24 POS. 20 years. Drove him a bunch but fairly local. Updated a couple linings/bands in '15.
Nope not yet. '18 for 2 (since '16). Not cribbage. Gaining mileage quickly. Prob'ly 30 year old linings.
Nope not yet. Fully worn out '24 truck yet ready to go. 35 year or older linings.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Aussie16 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:10 am

Yes, 2 drum failures and both with Kevlar Bands. Both my fault, due to poor adjustment and operator error. This issue has been discussed on numerous other threads. It is good, however, to see that folk agree that Kevlar can contribute to cracked drums but also they are a great product if used and adjusted correctly and with a transmission in good shape. As has already been wisely pointed out, Original style cotton bands will wear and burn out if not adjusted or used correctly, Kevlar will handle so much more abuse and will transfer the heat of friction to the drum,ie the Kevlar handles the heat better than what the cast iron drum designed for. I have Kevlar in ,my current T but they are a carefully adjusted and maintained. so far, so good.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Dom Denio » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:19 am

The photo shows the failure of the reverse drum I experienced over 10 years ago with Kevlar bands. I drive my T between 25 to 35 MPH and was in highway traffic when it exploded.
Model T Reverse Drum Failure.png


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Original Smith » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:26 am

I'm lucky. I've never had a cracked drum. I have three T's with original Scandanavia, and one T with Steve Coniff's Kevlar. A lot of people in Southern California will not use Kevlar because they think it cracks the drums, specifically the reverse. My opinion is they don't know how to drive a Model T! The purpose of the bands is to stop the drum from turning. If you allow the band to continuously slip, it's going to overheat the drum, and with Kevlar probably crack it.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by KWTownsend » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:34 am

I had a reverse drum break on my 1919 about 20 + years ago. At the time I had been running what we called "hard" lining. I believe it was asbestos lining that was commonly used in Caterpillar bulldozers. They chattered terribly, but I could stop on a dime. I also used to alternate using the brake and reverse when going down a long hill. I used to burn up cotton linings like crazy 40 years ago...

Today all my cars have Kevlar lining, and run as smooth as silk. The low range on the Ruckstell helps me to go down hills using minimal use of the brake pedal.

If there ever is a next time I have to rebuild a transmission I will certainly use new transmission drums. With 90+ year old cast iron drums you are gambling every time.

There is no way to know if the asbestos lining contributed to the drum failure, but would not use any "hard" type of lining today. I am an avid Model T driver and have Kevlar lining in all my cars. Just drive it as if it has cotton lining.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:19 am

Why do reverse bands break like that. Are people driving around the block in reverse or do they have their bands set too tight and they are dragging.

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Thorlick » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:38 am

Mark,

I believe the brake drums are toughest and the reverse drums are the weakest and easiest to break.

I think that when I lost my reverse drum I had not made the band round enough or had distorted it upon installation (see, operator error caused the failure... well the same error with other linings would have been so minor as to be non-detectable).

Errors in driving is well know as a way to cause a transmission failure when using Kevlar linings. In Steve's case I don't think anyone can make a case for an unfamiliarity with proper T driving practice.

In the case of Steve's broken transmission I strongly suspect that this is a case of band rivets coming loose. This would cause the need for band adjustment. The end of the band could have folded under causing too much drag for the electric starter to function. After towing to get it started a folded band liner would quickly cause the catastrophic failure of the drum and band. ... Just my take on what happened based on the narrative and the photographs.

TH
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:41 am

Mark Osterman wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:19 am
Why do reverse bands break like that. Are people driving around the block in reverse or do they have their bands set too tight and they are dragging.
Another cause...
From using reverse as the brake.
Old myths about this and many "old timers" did this. Saving on the brake linings was the theory.

I saw my dad stomping on all 3 pedals before, in a panic stop !!! :shock:

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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Dan B » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:56 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:25 pm
Dan B

looking at the pits and rough edges on those drums, Kevlar was the least of your worries. Hopefully the Guinns have turned out to be what you'd hoped for.
Scott,

You are right. I knew a lot more the second time around building the transmission and found a good set of donor drums. Straightened out a lot of things including bent pedals, which was probably the leading cause in the drum breaking in the first place.

The Guinn bands definitely have a different feel to them than the Kevlar. I felt like I was learning to drive all over again. The also have not seated as quick as the Kevlar bands. I have had to adjust my brake band several times since installing them.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm

Dan

your picture looked familiar...not sure if you had posted way back when...
experience can be a tough teacher, wouldn't you say? :)
I am glad things are settling in for you
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by havnfun » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:42 pm

Yes, one Friends Reverse drum and he uses Kevlar, having said that, his driving methods are more questionable, then material used.
another friends Low drum, he had some sort of wood or something else with something like clothe material together making up the band material

I've also taken about 5 older transmissions apart, some had cotton material and most no bands, all but one had cracked webbing on the reverse drums.
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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by modeltbarn » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:55 pm

I have found cracked drums in transmissions that I have torn down but never had one crack in a car I was driving.

I'm trying Kevlar bands now (first time) but they are with a new set of drums. I don't expect any issues.


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Re: Have you had a drum failure ? POLL

Post by Billdizer,Spencer In » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:00 pm

25 Coupe, used in upstate NY, then hilly Virginia, broke low and reverse, cotton bands, never has had Kevlar.

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