***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

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VowellArt
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***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:51 am

Ok, this is the very first timer that Ford used on the Model T Fords, those known as the "first 2500"...it is probably a carry over from Model N, but was also used all through 1911 too. The interesting thing to note is that there was no bolt and strap that held this timer to the engine, the camshaft nut does. Notice the flange on the commutator, that rides on the felt seal which is supported by the steel washer against the housing. Also notice that there is not a slot on only one side, the slot goes all the way through the commutator and the pin is just a piece of 3/16 stock, what holds it in place is the camshaft cap like on all later timers, but you can set this timer up 180º out of time too, just by placing the commutator in the wrong position.

1909-1911-2-Piece-Timer-Assembly.jpg

I placed two arms in boxes, because the arm changed in 1909 from 1/2 inch roller to a 5/8 inch roller later in that year, but both were used and in the Ford Parts catalog from 1909-1911...this changed in late 1911-1912 (about 6 weeks worth) when Ford tried the "Oil Fill" timer. Most of the commutators you see online for sale, that have no flange like this one does, yet have the spring arm are not 1909-1911's as they advertise they are, they're 1912 and they have no flange because they're for use with the oil fill timer. since oil needed to get around the commutator, the flange had to be removed which meant that the felt seal and its support washer were also unneeded and in the way of oil getting into the engine (as was the timer shield too for that matter) and the camshaft nut couldn't hold the timer to the engine any more, so Ford used the bolt and strap like on all later Model T's.
I tell you that just knowing this explains a lot about how the evolution of the Model T progressed, I've said it several times, that I'm in a rather unique situation in that I get to see the progression of the improvements and how they came about from 1909 thru 1927, and hopefully you will too.

Of course the next one will be the Oil Fill Timer...fun never quits!. ;)
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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by rgould1910 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:27 am

Nice work. Couple things to note. The timer housing has a snout or nose that enters into the hole of the timing gear cover that is not present in your drawing.The felt washer is placed around the nose between the rear vertical surface of the housing and the timing gear cover rather than inside the housing itself. The steel washer that rides between the commutator and the inside of the housing may not have been used in Ford production. Original examples I have seen have no washer and wear is present on the inside of the houusing from contact with the commutator flange. If I get to the computer today I' ll upload a photo or two.


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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by rgould1910 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:32 am

Photo
20190801_073115.jpg


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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by rgould1910 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:34 am

Photo
20190801_073256.jpg

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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:18 am

Looks very nice. For what it's worth, N and T timers look the same but I believe they are different. I've held both in my hand at the same time and can't remember exactly what it was, but I think the snout diameter or some such is different.

Not to nit pick, but the front cover where the timer mounts looks to have a few too many concentric circles on the o.d. Reference the thread where we talked about the front plates and you'll see that that surface is just a raised flat pad with a counterbore and then a thru-hole. It's not contoured like the one-piece front plates that came after this.

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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:42 pm

From this angle you won't see anything that is on the backside of this timer, the only clue is that the hole for the camshaft is deeper than it should be given the depth of the housing. I know there is that small inner diameter on the rear of this housing, I also can't show how the housing is slightly tapered either and I've suggested that the interior is con-caved by showing diagonal disappearing lines on the part past the shelf that the insulator ring is mounted to.

If you're suggesting that there is another felt washer on the backside of this assembly, that makes sense to me, otherwise it would be rotating on the cast iron of the plate and it being made of brass or bronze, I think would gall a bit without some sort of lubricating surface such as a felt washer. That small diameter on the backside would almost have to rubbing on the shield and or the seal itself without some sort of felt washer back there. But I do know that there is a steel washer and a felt washer (seal) with a 3/4 I.D. under the commutator that it rides on against the interior of the housing, I've seen pictures of it, but not the rear where the timer goes without the timer having already been installed. But I will make the hole for the camshaft deeper also to make it more plain that there is some sort of rear cylindrical piece protruding from the rear of this assembly (sometime you have to exaggerate the obvious to make something clearer).

I've never held an N's or a T's 2 piece timer in my hands, but I can tell you they look an awful lot a like from the pictures I've seen. If they're not the same bloody timer then Ford used the N's timer as a model for the T's 2 piece timer. But given the fact that he scrapped this timer in favor of the one piece "Oil Fill" timer. I think that Ford being the original "Mr. Thrifty" would've used up any extra 2 piece timers he had on hand whether they came from an N or not, I'm sure though he would have to start making the for the Model T at some point, which would also suggest that those first 2500 cars may have had a Model N timer in at least some of them.
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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:32 pm

Just out of curiosity, what are you working from when you make these drawings if you don't have a sample part?

Maybe someone else will chime-in that could answer the timer evolution thing better. I have heard that the earliest T timers are smaller and perhaps those were the same as the N timer or a 2,500 thing, but from what I have handled, while looking much the same, the T & N units are not interchangeable generally speaking.

There's no doubt that much like how carburetors continued to get more and more simple, that two-piece timers cost a good bit more to produce than the final design of the one-piece units. Surely if there were any leftovers they wouldn't have gotten scrapped, but they still would have been useful to sell as repair parts. N timers are a different animal given that the mount to the rear of the engine and you can't simply slap a one-piece timer on a two-piece timer equipped T without also changing out the front plate on the engine.

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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:38 pm

I just thought to look -- if you have the McCalley CD, reference the parts list. There is what is referred to as the "Early 1909 case, 2-7/8" diameter" and the "1909-10, 3" diameter After the first 15,000" as well as some other minor changes made along the way with respect to the how tall the unit is.

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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:36 pm

My source were the pictures and help given to me by Royce Peterson and he absolutely insists there is no felt behind this timer other than what is used to seal the camshaft...apparently these leaked a bit out the back and front too or at least more than the later years (other than that bloody "oil fill" timer), so it is entirely possible that by 1910 there was some sort of felt washer back there. I'd love to pull the Ford drawings on this timer from the Benson Ford, but since my club dues are slightly out of date (like about 6 years or so, lol), I understand that is not possible and you also need the Ford Factory Number too, because that's how they are filed, the vendor part number (3200) won't be of any use. So here I are, dependent upon the good graces of folks like Royce Peterson, Don Lang, Kim Dobbins, John Regan, Larry Blair and for the right hand drive cars Allan from down under and Peter Kable and many others for info on these cars (usually their cars)...my car is 1922 Touring, that one I know inside and out, but these early ones, are somewhat a mystery to me, which is why is it nice to have friends like these folks I've listed and others who either own one (and sometimes several) or have worked on them.

If your pictures show the adaption of that felt for 1910, then I will make a drawing to reflect what the 1910 had and also any changes to the case as well. I need to see some other pictures though and or Ford engineering drawings, because there is no way that felt washer under the commutator with a 3/4 inch I.D. would fit round that tail on the back of this timer without ripping it trying to make it fit there. But I do have on CD all of McCalley's works too, so I can check both his parts lists and his Factory Numbers Lists too, which I do quite often...maybe I should look up this timer and see if it is in there or not. At least it would give me a place to start looking...so if this is correct for 1910 then this felt would've been there on the back of this timer from 1910-1911, because this timer wasn't used past late 1911. I'll look into, thanks for bringing this up....fun never quits you know! ;)
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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:57 pm

VowellArt wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:36 pm
But I do have on CD all of McCalley's works too, so I can check both his parts lists and his Factory Numbers Lists too, which I do quite often...maybe I should look up this timer and see if it is in there or not.
The post I made right above this referenced the two-piece timer on the McCalley CD. It includes that, photos, and all these little pieces that are in question, including the 3213 felt ring measuring 1-1/4" x 2" that fits perfectly onto the snout of the timer and into the counterbore of the front plate listed with a Catalog Date of Jan. 1909. I don't see anything there showing a 3/4" i.d. felt washer. Everything is there, the date change on the rollers, the whole bit.

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Re: ***1909 - 1911 2 Piece Timer Assembly***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:08 pm

Thanks, I'll got look.
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