1911 button tufting layout.

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Michael Paul
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1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Michael Paul » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:11 am

Happy New year! My resolution is to get my 11 touring on the road. Just finished rebuilding the engine with Erik Barrett's help. Now on to the upholstery!

Fortunately, I worked for a upholstery shop part time in highschool, started off making buttons for the tufting jobs that were lined up. Diamond tufting is not that complicated,(but hours of work) it's just a matter of layout of the leather that is a wider pattern than the backing. It's amazing how it comes together while filling the space with horse hair.

I was hoping to get a layout pattern or old upholstery that I can use for a pattern. Does anyone have a pattern or old tattered material I could copy? I would gladly compensate you for your time and any shipping costs.
I would send it right back after making a pattern. In fact, I would make extra patterns for others who might need them. FYI I do have patterns of the original side curtains for the 11 touring I would be glad to share.

Thanks Mike
PhotoPictureResizer_191221_091639673-2195x2270.jpg


Scott Rosenthal
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:55 am

Hello Michael:
Sounds like you have been down this road before, so pardon if comments here are info already assumed.

Seat backs for the 1911 Touring models will vary depending on who produced the body. Front and back seat backs and cushions will be unique dimensionally, where the rear is not only wider, but can be slightly taller, and where the armrest geometry and finishing is unique. A fitted pattern can be easily constructed for both front and rear, using inexpensive light gauge vinyl for the top and burlap for the backing. This pattern will enable you to best position buttons and pleats to optimize the look, and to record where the fastening tacks will be located. These tack (or staple) and fold positions are needed so that your "Gimp" trim job thoroughly covers fasteners and so the finished Gimp and finish tack layout looks as neat as possible.

Not sure whether the eat cushion for 1911 were box springs or wooden frames, or maybe both, where this can have a layout impact on your pattern. Here again, I recommend a cheap materials pattern for best finished appearance. Hope this helps

Regards,
Scott


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Michael Paul
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Michael Paul » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:33 pm

Thanks Scott for the great idea.......I was planing on tacking the backing in place on the body. Then layout the button location. I had a book some time back that had layout patterns for carriages.

The vinyl idea, is the way to go. I do have a Hayes body original with the car. And an extra beaudette body. You're right, they look the same, but doors are slightly higher on one.

I suppose if I could get the center to center dimensions that would be a good start.
Thanks again Mike

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KWTownsend
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:04 pm

Michael-
I made the patterns for my upholstery for my late 1911 Beaudette bodied touring car. In my research from original upholstery, I have determined the cushion for the Beaudette is two diamonds deep and the Hayes three diamonds deep.

Early 1911 used the wood frame seat, later in the year (on Beaudette cars at least) the frame was steel, then the bottom was covered with hardboard and artificial leather.

Here is a Beaudette Cushion:
1911 front cushion Willard.jpg
Here is a Hayes Cushion:
1911 3 diamond deep rear seat.jpg
Here is another Hayes cushion:
Phil's front cushion Hayes.jpg
The back seat cushions are typically one diamond wider than the front cushion.
Here is a wood framed seat cushion:
wood seat frame Gordon.JPG
And the metal framed cushion with the bottom covering from later in the year:
seat frame Chad.JPG
: ^ )

Keith
Last edited by KWTownsend on Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KWTownsend
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:35 pm

Michael-
Here are some more pics from my project:
front seat pattern.JPG
leather laid out.JPG
leather and pattern.JPG
Horsehair in box.jpg
u back seat 1.jpg
: ^ )

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KWTownsend
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:39 pm

And a few more:
u cushion inder.jpg
u cushion sewn.jpg
u cushion top tufted.jpg
u front finished.jpg
old and new.jpg
: ^ )

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KWTownsend
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:50 pm

This is the last for now:
Installing 5.jpg
installing 3 smaller.jpg
Installing 4.jpg
Keith Upholstery.jpg
Full disclosure: I made the patterns, found the leather, horsehair, ordered the uncovered upholstery prongs from the factory, found original capped upholstery nails, and got trim from Original Larry. I did not do the sewing. I found a local upholstery guy who had never done a Model T, never worked with horsehair, and never used prong style buttons before, but he was willing to try. I liked that positive attitude!

I made the base patterns and leather patterns. We used duck cloth for the base, used rubberized horsehair for a horsehair base, then used regular horsehair for the stuffing.

I would be happy to share all my patterns with you.

: ^ )

Keith


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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:51 pm

attachment]
seat front 12 touring 1-1-2020.jpg
Hello Michael:
These show my home done 12 Touring upholstery job. These cushions were made using cut off scraps from this and another car project. The diamonds were individually sewn together, then padded to suit. This cushion frame is one of Snyders repo box springs. To determine the pillowed look this would have, I used the cheap vinyl pattern method. This is a most comfortable car to drive.

Regards,
Scott
Attachments
seat back 12 touring 1-1-2020.jpg


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Michael Paul
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Michael Paul » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:55 pm

Wow, both look great! Thank you Keith and Scott for the great photos and info.

It would be a great help to borrow your patterns Keith.
That would speed things up so much.
Where did you find your leather hides?

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KWTownsend
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:13 pm

Michael-
I got the leather from Tandy. They had some hides that were called euro upholstery chap leather hides. I would have to dig out my records to see the thickness and weight of them, and how many I bought. I think I bought five, but could have done it in four, including the door panels. Often original upholstery shows evidence of the leather having been pieced together.

I used these little clamps to hold the pleats in place while doing the final installation:
clamps at pleats.JPG
Metal covered prong type buttons. Original on left, new on the right.
u buttons.jpg
These ligne 22 prong buttons came from C and C Metal Products in New Jersey. Although I only needed a couple of hundred of them, their minimum order was 5 gross! I painted them black. You may be able to get some from Michael at Classtique. He now gets them from C and C.

There are a variety of different sources for horsehair. If you need some, maybe someone will chime in.

If you are doing a super accurate and authentic restoration, I have some 3/8" capped upholstery nails available. If you are interested contact me directly.
Capped nails painted.jpg
: ^ )

Keith


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Michael Paul
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Michael Paul » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:26 pm

I found these on eBay, is 44 sq ft the same size as you bought? The price seems very inexpensive to me.
Any thoughts?

Thanks Mike
Screenshot_20200101-152316.png

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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by HornsRus » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:52 pm

I HAVE PILES OF SEAT BACKS FROM JIM FINEYS BODYS YEARS AGO.I HAVE PATTERNS AND SUPPLIES ALSO FULL WOOD PATTERNS + TIN FOR ABOUT 25 BODIES.NEED A YOUNG GUY THAT WANTS TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HA,HA. CHARLEY

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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Walter Higgins » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:09 pm

The topic of cheap leather comes up on occasion. Read through this thread and pay particular attention to trimacar's comments. He reads on this forum too and might chime in:

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/300155-le ... nt-1657705


Scott Rosenthal
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:00 am

Keith notes how parts of original upholstery were pieced together by suppliers back in the day. That's the way my cushions are made...if you look close, you see dye lot and grain variations, that nobody would notice unless you went looking for them. I had abundant scraps and thought to give this a try versus buying another hide. It's a little more work, but finishes out nice.
Regards,
Scott


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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Original Smith » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:53 am

Beware of the dull black hides available today. You can still buy shiny black, but you have to look for it. Be sure to use the black metal topped pronged upholstery buttons too. A lot of T guys don't know that.


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Michael Paul
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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by Michael Paul » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:12 am

Thanks for all of the great info.... I didn't know the buttons we're metal topped. I found my button making machine and was ready to start cutting leather plugs to make the buttons. So black painted top pronged buttons we're used originally?

Also I've been getting an education on leather thickness.
It seems 1 to 1.2 mm thickness is preferred for automotive use. The eBay hides are that size.
Is the dull black dye inferior in any way? I kind of like that look on an old car. I'm assuming the original leather was shinny black?

Again, thanks for all the great info. Mike


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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by rgould1910 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:25 am

Loren Burch pointed me to the leather supplier he uses. The hides were just beautiful. He is listed in the Horseless Carriage Gazette directory. Call him, no sense taking any chances.


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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by rgould1910 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:25 am

Loren Burch pointed me to the leather supplier he uses. The hides were just beautiful. He is listed in the Horseless Carriage Gazette directory. Call him, no sense taking any chances.

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Re: 1911 button tufting layout.

Post by KWTownsend » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:09 pm

Mike-
I, too, was tempted with some killer deals on leather, but I resisted the temptation. I would not buy any hides sight unseen unless it was from someone I know or a trusted individual who understands the needs and requirements of Model T upholstery work.

I will hunt for my records and call you today.

: ^ )

Keith

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