Bad advice from well meaning forum members

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Humblej
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Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Humblej » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:52 am

Reading the recent post requesting advice for coolant, I notice a trend for well meaning but misguided alternative advice that is not helpful and may be detrimental to newbies with simple basic how to questions. Many of us for example, have heard of old timers putting saw dust in a rear axle to quiet noisy gears, or rice in a leaky radiator, or a leather belt to replace a bad con rod babbit... but this is not a conventional or accepted practice for model t repair or maintenance. I suggest , regardless of how well meaning folks are, that once a question is accuratly answered, we should be able to sit on our hands and leave it alone. Really, 30 plus responses to coolant advice?! And bad advice like using straight water?! If we cannot collectivly control our tendencies to one up or disagree with sound advice we will turn this great forum into a bunch of cranky old know-it-alls bickering among ourselves and alienating those new to the hobby.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by John Codman » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:06 am

I read the thread on coolant and decided to steer clear of it. Threads on Mystery oil, lubricating oil, and gasoline always get loads of responses, some of which are mutually excluding. Typically, the OP won't know much more then he/she did when the thread started.

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Oldav8tor » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:01 am

Hah! I started that post and had my answer in the first couple of replies.... the rest was an interesting take on both history and personal choices not always based upon good science. I was easily able to find the info I needed. I may be wrong, but anyone who takes on the job of maintaining a model T has to bring a certain amount of intelligence, experience and aptitude to the task. We're trying to adapt that experience to maintaining a 100 year old car, which sometimes means turning back a few pages technology-wise. What is acceptable on my 2016 Jeep is not going to help on my 1917 Ford.

I appreciate that people take the time to answer the questions that I throw out....especially those that have been asked a zillion times.... I guess my take on it is that if I don't get a clear and satisfactory answer, I'll either push the question a little more or PM a couple of the respondents who seem to know what they're talking about. I've made a few friends that way.

I should have said this at the beginning but Jeff and John make a good point. When phrasing a reply, consider who it is aimed at and if for a newbie, be able to support your opinion with information and facts as the recipient doesn't have the wealth of experience that you have to sort things out easily.
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by rgould1910 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:04 am

The title says it all. If the reader is experiened, he can weed out the bad advice. If not, I don't know what to say. Perhaps experience is only acquired by making wrong choices. Certainly the case with me.😜


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:58 am

Richard

I've found these two things to be true:

1. Experience comes from following any advice.
2. Wisdom comes after following bad advice.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by MichaelPawelek » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:53 pm

Jeff, You should know better. You don’t put rice in a leaky radiator. It’ 2 tablespoons of black pepper. Get with the program! :)

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:00 pm

It's 2 tablespoons of black pepper.

Don't forget the bacon and eggs. :D
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Nv Bob » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:08 pm

Bad or good advice here yes it happens
Many old wise tails folk lore and facts comeout in these type of posts
I guess these type of posts should ask
How do we mix new technology with antique
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by bud delong » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Friday night on the program Gold Rush a fellow put two eggs in a large dozer which stopped large leaks but that was on tv! Bud.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Victor Borg » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:34 pm

HOLY COW!!! my grandkids tell me if it's on TV it hasta be true!


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Rich Bingham » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:09 pm

Humblej wrote: . . . Many of us for example, have . . . tendencies to one up or disagree with sound advice . . . a bunch of cranky old know-it-alls bickering among ourselves and alienating those new to the hobby.
:shock: I thought that was what the forum is all about ! :lol:
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Mindless Automaton » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:48 pm

Sometimes it depends on your perspective of what 'bad' is.

For me, plain water doesn't leak out as fast as anti-freeze. I'd rather use a corrosion inhibitor but I can't as it'll only leak out.

Black pepper slows that leak. But it doesn't last forever. Hence I carry a can of black pepper to get home some times.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Burger in Spokane » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 pm

Who needs experience ?

sheepdog.jpg
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Moxie26 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:07 pm

A cup of Quaker oatmeal works too .......!!!

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:16 pm

I've worked the trade for a heck of a long time and while that doesnt make me any kind of exert I sure can tell when a no nothing is giving some "sound advice". I absolutely HATE it when people tell someone with a problem "Pull the head". Without a wet & dry comression test You usually have little to go on and I'll chime in with that and usually get some crap tossed back. At that point I know I'm dealing with backyard boobs.
Forget everything you thought you knew.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tom Hicks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:49 am

Charlie B in N.J. wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:16 pm
I've worked the trade for a heck of a long time and while that doesnt make me any kind of exert I sure can tell when a no nothing is giving some "sound advice". I absolutely HATE it when people tell someone with a problem "Pull the head". Without a wet & dry comression test You usually have little to go on and I'll chime in with that and usually get some crap tossed back. At that point I know I'm dealing with backyard boobs.
And, when some shadetree, like me, starts telling those who really know (like you and many others here) it has to be incredibly aggravating to those who really know. A poster with little experience or knowledge can post authoritatively and someone new looking for an answer gets a wild goose chase. Meanwhile, those who know give up posting in disgust. This hurts the forum overall as bad advice is given and knowledgeble posters quit posting.

Maybe someone can tell me how easy it is to rebuild an NH...
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tiger Tim » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:23 am

Tom Hicks wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:49 am
Maybe someone can tell me how easy it is to rebuild an NH...
It’s a piece of cake as long as you do it as badly as I did.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by samuel pine » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:35 am

I lost babbit in a rod yrs ago and cut my belt and it got me home 50 miles or so,, so thats true. I have a
F6 V8 with a sander, now its burping throwing up steaming. Why? cause my father was pouring in things
in the radiator that was pounded in his head in depression times instead of simply having the radiator
fixed. He was a guy always looking down picking up pennies and cans, where as, I drill holes in pennies for
washers and melt bear cans for aluminum. So in summery I think even now an ole man, its hard to understand
going through those times, now taken for granted, a furnace, electric lights a toilet and then my father and
five brothers were born in this very kitchen that I'm typing from at the turn of the century. I got a little
glimpse of those days, as a little kid when country doctor treats you with horse medicine and whiskey and
honey but it worked, imagine to call the doctor & come to house for 2 bucks??? Now you are sick and go out
in this weather and get sicker to go to doctor he charges you 100 bucks a minute for piece of paper to get pills?
I hate needles (needle phobia) the good doctor gets two ice cubes from mamma, plays a game like checkers on
my arm, bracing myself to get ice picked, he says oh, I already done it. Why don't doctors think like that
now. far as I'm concerned, that's good doctoring, brilliant thinking::: So back to this post all those remedies
were true with eggs, sawdust & pepper. I think we all got it; correct the problem= no snake oil and the
most loved marvel mystery oil will not add metal to a worn part or free welded up rings or lifters. Waste of money .


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by John kuehn » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:31 am

It’s kind of like this. Some folks like onions on their burgers and think it’s wonderful.
Then there are folks who don’t like onions and think it’s the worst thing that ever was.
But what about Marvel Mystery Oil!
Oh and I do like onions on my burgers!

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by ironhorse » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:32 pm

When I took Auto Shop in H.S. The instructor said "No can of "C***" can do in 10 minutes what it takes a Skilled mechanic 2 hours to do!" I think he still may be pretty much correct But I will still try a couple of cans of SeaFoam before I pull the injectors. :roll:
Do it right or do it over,your choice. Drive like everyone is out to get you!

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:37 pm

I believe there's a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things...then there's my wife's way :shock: :? :lol:


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tom Hicks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:43 pm

ironhorse wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:32 pm
When I took Auto Shop in H.S. The instructor said "No can of "C***" can do in 10 minutes what it takes a Skilled mechanic 2 hours to do!" I think he still may be pretty much correct But I will still try a couple of cans of SeaFoam before I pull the injectors. :roll:
I know from experience that Seafoam can do amazing things for a NH. But does it clean the three secret passages?

Maybe someone can tell me how easy it is to rebuild an NH...
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm

Maybe someone can tell me how easy it is to rebuild an NH...

Like so many other things, it's easy when you know how.



The problem with urging people not to give bad advice is that they think their advice is good.
:D
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tom Hicks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:05 pm

That, and

There could be many different causes for the same problem. So someone who found a cause advises the solution he found, while another with another cause gives different advice. Both trying to help and giving honest advice, but the problem could have been another completely different cause all along.

For example, the engine starts but idles poorly.


First poster, "clear secret passage #2 " because that cured his problem.

Second poster, "Beat a lead fishing weight into a washer and replace the washer where the needle valve base seats".

Third poster, "replace the Grose jet with a brass needle valve like Henry intended".

Forth poster, "replace the worn needle valve with a viton tipped valve.

Fifth poster, "remove the fuel filter".

Etc. etc. etc.

Eventually the person asking advice gets a professionally rebuilt carburetor and the engine still idles poorly. That's when he cleans his timer and then everything is fine.

All the posters offering advice were trying to help by telling what solved their problem.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:33 pm

As a professional auto technician, I will say most of the "diagnostics" that occurs online, is mostly speculation. Some things can and are correctly diagnosed, others, having an eye, ear or feel is the best way to get to the bottom of things.

I just love it when a customer wants a modification/performance part installed and they send me a YouTube and ask how much labor to do the job. "It only took 15 minutes in the video !" :twisted: :roll:

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Richard G » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:55 pm

the black pepper advice is a good temporary ---TEMPORARY--- fix, but you forgot to mention it needs to be put in a cold radiator. otherwise the pepper will swell in the hot water before it reaches where it needs to do its trick, over the past 70 odd years ive used that FIX a few times, and it don't always work nether. I too set back and smile at times when i read some of the advice given here, its always to your best interest to get a second opinion, LIKE CALL THE FOLKS AT LANG'S, THEY KNOW and have what you need.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tom Hicks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:10 pm

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:33 pm
Some things can and are correctly diagnosed, others, having an eye, ear or feel is the best way to get to the bottom of things.
I am shadetree. Mine suddenly lost power and barely got me home. I spent a lot of time checking fuel, carburetion, ignition, even pulled the distributor. A guy came by who knew what he was doing, and he said the same thing as you about basic four cylinder engines. He told me to start her up, he then started pulling plug wires one at a time. I knew they were all firing because I had pulled the plugs before and laid them on the block and seen them fire as I turned the engine over. But pulling 3 and 4 made no difference in how the engine ran. He told me the head gasket was blown between 3 and 4. He was right, and it didn't take him two minutes to figure it out.

But, I still come here for ideas and advice when I can't figure something out. And often Google my problem with "MTFCA" to search for answers. With T's, you can't beat experience.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Mindless Automaton » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:15 pm

Cold radiator for black pepper? I didn't know. I did tip some in while getting gas the other day so it went in hot. But the leak stopped right away.
(tax on bringing in a radiator would be the cost of buying another T, so I'm led to believe)
Tom Hicks wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:43 pm
I know from experience that Seafoam can do amazing things for a NH. But does it clean the three secret passages?

Maybe someone can tell me how easy it is to rebuild an NH...
Depends on your definition of "easy" and "rebuild".
I've never rebuilt one, but I've replaced parts or dressed the needles on an oil stone with a drill.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:35 pm

Humblej wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:52 am
Reading the recent post requesting advice for coolant, I notice a trend for well meaning but misguided alternative advice that is not helpful and may be detrimental to newbies with simple basic how to questions. Many of us for example, have heard of old timers putting saw dust in a rear axle to quiet noisy gears, or rice in a leaky radiator, or a leather belt to replace a bad con rod babbit... but this is not a conventional or accepted practice for model t repair or maintenance. I suggest , regardless of how well meaning folks are, that once a question is accuratly answered, we should be able to sit on our hands and leave it alone. Really, 30 plus responses to coolant advice?! And bad advice like using straight water?! If we cannot collectivly control our tendencies to one up or disagree with sound advice we will turn this great forum into a bunch of cranky old know-it-alls bickering among ourselves and alienating those new to the hobby.

Wow Jeff, you're almost up to 30 responses to your post about 30 responses, (and I helped!). It's why I rarely look here anymore and why I rarely post anymore. Any well though out, good advice gets buried and ignored. (not suggesting that my advice is always good...)

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Keeping With The Subject

Post by FreighTer Jim » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:12 pm

4CBFB0BB-2F93-4A08-B732-5840ED0F9A93.jpeg
4CBFB0BB-2F93-4A08-B732-5840ED0F9A93.jpeg (31.67 KiB) Viewed 4586 times

FJ


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tom Hicks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:15 pm

I rarely look here anymore and why I rarely post anymore.
[/quote]

And, you have been missed.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:56 pm

That's a good one FJ :lol:

Don't forget the penny in the old house fuses !! :shock:


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by HaroldRJr » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:01 pm

I can't take credit for this quote, because I got it from one of the "T" guys on this forum (can't remember who) but this one has become a favorite of mine:

"There is nothing more permanent than a 'temporary fix' that works!


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by StanHowe » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:39 am

And then there are people who actually have substantial experience who offer correct advice based on years of successful experience such as having rebuilt a couple thousand carburetors who seldom post anything helpful due to past experience with offering actual expertise.

A lead washer under the brass seat in an NH has probably cured more problems with leaking NH's than most of the other remedies combined.

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by RustyFords » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:16 am

What'll be even more frustrating than bad advice is when all you guys (shadetree, expert and otherwise) pass on and the four or five of us "youngsters" are left here with no advice at all.
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by jaxenro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:24 am

Isn’t this sort of the bane of the whole internet experience that anyone can claim to be anything and it is hard to weed out who is what except time. Rankings are typically number of posts which just rewards loudmouths


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Original Smith » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 am

It's pretty common on here. The best thing to do is just ignore those remarks.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:41 pm

Tom Hicks wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:15 pm
I rarely look here anymore and why I rarely post anymore.
And, you have been missed.
[/quote]

Thank you Tom. I truly appreciate that!


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:18 pm

I have been ignoring this thread.
And, yes Jerry VO, you have been missed here. I only looked in now because I saw your name as most recent post.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:38 pm

wayne sheldon wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:18 pm
I have been ignoring this thread.
And, yes Jerry VO, you have been missed here. I only looked in now because I saw your name as most recent post.
You guys are gonna make me cry... Really though, thank you for saying that.

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by John Warren » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:54 pm

I am with Wayne in that I was ignoring this thread. Usually I find that everyone who reply's to a post has something to offer. Sometimes, I'll have to admit, I have to dig deep to find it, but it is there! All are well meaning and probably know many things I don't. My Dad always said " there is more than one way to skin a cat". With that said, it seams especially true with the model T's. .... Pepper, tea, coffee, eggs, leather,rope,saw dust, and baling wire, are and were all, on the table as possible fixes for our cars. These cars were made before antifreeze, so there is a lot of ground between then and now. These things are still here after 100+ years, many still have the stock standard pistons and two piece valves in them and still run even with no air filter! Who in there right mind would run a modern engine with out an air filter. I hope some one offering advice or what has been working for them on this forum is never belittled for commenting or trying to help someone. If it is confusing to some, so be it. The main thing a forum needs is participation!!! I love to hear what all you sob's have to say.. :D And some day I hope meet you. Thank You all for commenting or sharing. P.S. I am also glad to hear from you Jerry, may be some day I'll meet you. :D
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:00 am

The best thing to do is just ignore those remarks.

If you're new, you don't know what to ignore. It takes awhile to scout out the lay of the land and figure out who knows which way is up.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Burger in Spokane
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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Burger in Spokane » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:50 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:00 am

If you're new, you don't know what to ignore. It takes awhile to scout out the lay of the land and figure out who knows which way is up.
=======================================================================

.... sitting back and watching/listening for a while to get a feel for the situation
should be standard operating procedure for anyone joining an unfamiliar group
or conversation.
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Adam » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:33 am

Most of the people that do something the wrong way and then advocate about thier method are doing so because it makes sense to them on some level.


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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Burger in Spokane » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:40 am

Adam wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:33 am
Most of the people that do something the wrong way and then advocate about thier method are doing so because it makes sense to them on some level.
===============================

Excellent point, Adam. In Academy, we had a whole unit of what they called
Paradigm Training. Basically, how the brain works via neural pathways and how
one person's "normal" might be another's "total insanity". Case in point: One day
while working Release, a guy processes out. I liked to converse the inmates, just
to get a feel for how they were doing. As might be expected, this guy was pretty
happy to be getting out of prison, and as he hit the gate, I gave him the usual joking
"Use your head, ... hope I never see you again" goodbye. About 3 weeks later he
was being in-processed again ....

A short while later, I got the chance to talk to him again and ask "What happened ?"
His response was so telling of the way different brains function against a varying "normal" ...
.... so his buddy came by (to wherever he was living), all excited, and said he wanted
to rob a nearby convenience store, asking our subject if he wanted to come along.
Now this sounds like utter madness to most people, but our boy jumped up and said
"Let's go!" like asking a dog if they want to go to the lake. As most might predict,
this didn't end well for the recently released convict, but his processing unit, at the
critical moment of that decision, thought it would be no different than if asked
"chocolate or vanilla ?"

On a much lesser scale, some of this less-than-great advice might very well be what
the giver thinks is "solid material" and sound thinking.
More people are doing it today than ever before !

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Re: Bad advice from well meaning forum members

Post by Tom D » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:52 pm

I would tend to agree that only "good, conventional" advice be given. Problem is WHO gets to determine what is "good, conventional" advice? Me?
Tom

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