Propane conversion/ ethanol free gas drift

[Bryant]

Has anyone tried it?
Does anyone have pics/documents on it?
I tried searching the forums. Seems vague.
This is simply curiosity on a subject I find interesting. The ethanol free topic is up for conversion also. Drift away

[JohnH]

In Australia, cars have been using what we call LPG (liquified petroleum gas), which is the same thing, since the 1980's. It was popular to convert larger 6 and 8 cylinder cars, particularly taxis. Often a 'dual fuel' set up existed where you could switch between the existing petrol carburettor, or feed it with LPG. The point being LPG was much cheaper than petrol. You fill up at the service station in the normal way, but with a gas tight fitting to the car. These days, it's gone out of fashion because the price of LPG has gone up here. I don't see why a Model T can't be converted.

[Kerry]

Converting to LPG could be done but the converter requires a water pump and thermostat system to prevent icing up.

[jab35]

The MTFCA Carburetor handbook shows a Zenith Butane Gas carb with an Algas 880 regulator on pg 17 figs 48 and 49, the caption on the photo states "LPG Carburetor" and "LPG Individual Components". I think a propane forklift carb for a similar displacement engine might suffice. jb
And no visible water connections, perhaps b/c Butane, not Propane is the fuel?

[Novice]

LPG / propane should only needs a regulator on the storage / gas tank. the stock hot air pipe on the model T engine should keep the carb from freezing which will need to be modified with a port for the LPG gas line. now if Your talking about using LNG. liquefied natural gas. That is a entirely different matter where a water pump and converter may be necessary since LNG has a boiling point of -260 C. as opposed to propane with a -44 F boiling point.

[TXGOAT2]

An elecric water pump would allow using a water-heated propane system and would also allow adding a hot water cabin heater. You'd need a thermostat and bypass, and 3 to 10 amps at 12 V to run the pump. Centrifugal type pumps pull less power as the discharge is restricted, so you might get by with less current.

[Kerry]

Many a commercial engine run fine on gas, running at set revs on a regulated pressure, even from your BBQ bottle, is fine but when you want a variation of volume for variable rev range, then it has to be temperature controlled at the convertor to prevent icing.

[TWrenn]

While years ago I converted our school systems entire bus fleet on LP/dual fuel, as well as my own pickup truck, it just wouldn't be feasible in a Model T. As someone said, need water pump no doubt, space under the hood for the vaporizer, and of course, the all important LP TANK! Mileage is quite a bit less on LP, you would need a good sized tank to get any range. Be okay if you had a pickup conversion Model T, but then the tank would take up almost half the tiny pickup box area anyway. Just not a good idea. Now, a nice 3 cyl. Yanmar Diesel under the hood would be something to consider!!

[Bryant]

Thank you, fellas! i thought i saw somewhere there was a carburetor pictured in the mtfca book. i do not have that book yet as i am still collecting. i like the idea of dual fuel.

[greenacres36]

A little more compression wouldn’t hurt. I think I’m correct to say the octane is pretty high in LP gas

[Kaiser]

I run my '66 CJ5 on propane exclusively as it is half the price of gas here (the Netherlands) and am very happy with it, but there are a few things to consider ;
- You lose about 10% horsepower which you make up with a slight increase in torque
- You lose milage, about 10% again
- Engine runs hotter (I mounted a beefier radiator from a M38A1 to cure that)
- Somehow you have to get hot water through the converter to keep it from freezing up

All in all I don't think a LPG/Propane setup is a feasable thing on a T.
Now a Wood Gasifier, that would be something !

[Allan]

One of our T club members had an A model tudor on LPG. There were no special requirements to fit the system. The gas cylinder was housed in a trunk on the rear luggage rack. It gave sterling service and was only removed because the modification was not allowed under the newly introduced Historic Registration system.

Allan from down under.

[Bryant]

It’s funny you say that I have a 3 cyl diesel under my bench. No all honesty Iam only fulfilling my need to ponder ideas. I will be running good ol gasoline. Last thing I would want to do is make her run hot! Great I formation thou!

[dykker5502]

Back around 1980 +/- I converted a Volvo 66 to run dual fuel gasoline/LPG. It was just an adapter you mounted under the carburator where the gas went in (as I recal it). What I DO recall is, that there where no hot water attachment.
(Ihave it lying around still so I can take pictures if you like).

[TXGOAT2]

A Model T will run well on propane /LPG. Running on propane/LPG would probably complicate normal T starting procedures. Some power loss would be noted. A Model T has very low compression, which is a disadvantage when using propane/LPG. Propane has an octane equivalency of 105 to around 112. A T engine, even with compression raised to arond 6:1, cannot take advantage of this. Propane/butane/LPG used to have a reputation for being hard on engine valves. I don't think this would be an issue with a T engine, as long as the valves seated correctly to begin with. Advantages include low to no carbon deposition, less crankcase oil pollution, substantially lower emissions, low exhaust odor, and good cold running, if the system is designed correctly. Around here, propane is NOT cheap, and the equipment to do a proper conversion or dual fuel setup is not cheap, either. Refueling can be a hassle, and propane tanks and other equipment are comparitively bulky and heavy. At one time, butane conversions were very popular for tractors and industrial applications across the US Midwest. The fuel was dirt cheap and abundant. That's no longer the case in most areas. LNG conversions for buses and other vehicles in recent times have been a bust, from what I've heard. What I'd consider an ideal fuel for a Model T would be a good grade of motor gasoline with NO ethanol, no odorant, and a minimum of other additives. That would yield good stability, good starting and operating characterisitics, and very low exhaust odor. In the US, a foul chemical odorant is added to gasoline and propane for safety purposes. The stench of this chemical substance, ethyl mercaptan, is the cause of most of the noxious exhaust odor emitted from older engines that are in good running order. A Model T in good tune running on straight gasoline would emit a very low exhaust odor. The exhaust would still be toxic, of course.

[Bryant]

Hey pictures would be great also thanks! Now running ethanol free gasoline is another topic of interest to me. I am Familiar with the process to removing it but have not attempted to do so yet. Feel free to drift topics on that. I never thought older engines seemed to agree with modern fuels.
But starting a “home brewed” gasoline for the T sounds fun

[tiredfarmer]

Propane or natural gas in a vehicle, Not this country boy. I have seen a car that had a propane tank in the trunk that had a leak then a spark, the trunk lid blew off and messed up the back half of the car. When I was a boy helping my Dad work the fields, our tractors had propane. My Dad said for me not to do anything untill he got finished filling the tanks so that a fire wouldn't start. I know two people that got burned because the tractors caught fire while filling when they caused a spark

[TXGOAT2]

As I understand it, you can "wash" ethanol out of gasoline by agitating the adulterated gasoline with clean water, then allowing the mix to settle, and pouring off the gasoline. The water will mix readily with the ethanol, and will cause it to drop out of solution. Doing this will substantially reduce the octane number of the fuel and reduce the volume of fuel. The reduced octane should not be an issue if it is used in a Model T. I don't know how difficult it would be to get all of the ethanol out of the adulterated gasoline, and if all the water would settle out. My guess is, it wouldn't. Gasohol contains a number of additives besides ethanol, including "co-solvents", and how these assorted additives would react to the washing process I do not know. You do NOT want to use de-ethanolized gasoline in anything but a very low compression engine. It would cause serious problems if used in any modern engine, including lawnmower type engines, due to the reduced octane equivalency and perhaps other issues related to additive stripping and probable water retention. It won't save you any money, either, and for most people today, disposing of the useless residue from the process would be a difficult task. Obviously, needless risk is incurred when handling gasoline needlessly. Best to avoid buying ethanol-adulterated gasoline in the first place.

[TXGOAT2]

A kid was killed some years ago around here when running a tractor with a factory propane system. The tank exploded and he died. That's not a common occurance, but that's little comfort to those involved. I don't know any details of how the accident happened. Putting a propane tank and/or related equipment in the trunk of a car, or any enclosed space, is asking for a free trip to low earth orbit.

[Bryant]

Yeah I get that. There’s always an inherent danger to combustibles. I myself am intimidated by propane tanks. We have them on fork lifts at the farm and most times people leave them unlatched I’ve often wondered about the guys driving around with the propane refueling trucks. I guess there seems to be a lot of disadvantages to converting. Maybe for a stationary T power plant instead?

[TXGOAT2]

Propane delivery trucks have a lot of expensive safety features designed to prevent accidents. They seem to work well if handled properly. Storage tanks will not explode under any ordinary cricumstances, but they can corrode and leak, and fittings can be damaged or broken, with obvious dangers. A propane tank in or near a fire can overpressure and release propane rapidly, which can result in a sudden, massive fireball. Propane tanks are not designed to be filled past a certain point, to allow for expansion. Overfilling can result in the safety valve popping off, which allows a sudden release of a lot of propane vapor. The stuff is safe IF handled properly. If propane was priced reasonabley, I'd probably install a propane system in a couple of old Ford pickups that I own. But it's not priced reasonabley. I wouldn't be concerned about safety with a properly installed tank in the pickup bed. I have a '71 F 350 with a 9-foot bed that would be ideal.

[Bryant]

When you add the water to the gas use food coloring to change its color this way you can see the difference. Some math is involved because you should have 10% less gas than you started with. If it’s a 10% blend. The ethanol is attracted to the water then they both settle to the bottom. If you have the right container with the measuring indicating side and you can see thru, you would know if you got it all by your measurements. They actually sell the container online. I saw a video where they put the gasoline in these little airplanes and where flying them around. I did not know it would drop the octane. I guess it’s all a experiment thou so please don’t take my word for it. Do some homework

[Les Schubert]

A couple of pictures of the propane carb and regulators that I picked up at a swap meet a couple of years ago. The plan was to install on a “vintage” generator I have.

[Bryant]

That’s pretty neat. Looks like an old Kohler engine carb. Sort of.

[TXGOAT2]

In this area, many retail gas pumps are labeled: "Product may contain up to 10% ethanol" That indicates that the fuel may or may not contain 10% ethanol, but it is not supposed to contain more than that. I don't know of any E85 or E15 pumps in this area, and I don't know if they are similary labeled as to ethanol content. I do know one thing: THE LESS, THE BETTER!

[Bryant]

Most of our pumps say 10% I know of one place that has E free but it’s more expensive. So I read a little and it appears the ethanol Raises the octane of the gas. So that’s why it drops when you take it out. They have some statistics on how much it raises for each octane. What octane should you aim for in a model T engine? Or ball park. Iam sure it will vary due to compression ratios. Low vs high for years made.

[TRDxB2]

Most of our pumps say 10% I know of one place that has E free but it’s more expensive. So I read a little and it appears the ethanol Raises the octane of the gas. So that’s why it drops when you take it out. They have some statistics on how much it raises for each octane. What octane should you aim for in a model T engine? Or ball park. Iam sure it will vary due to compression ratios. Low vs high for years made.

Yes, low compression ratio then low octane. In the 20's - 30's the automobile gas octane rating was about 40 while aviation fuel was approaching 90 https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Gasoline. Octane rating, which is a measure of how resistant gasoline is to the abnormal combustion phenomenon known as detonation (also known as knocking, pinking, spark knock, and other names). In the early days lead, tetraethyllead (TEL) , was used as an anti-knock additive because it could be patented instead of using Ethanol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
Everyone has their gasoline preference for Octane, E content, and even gas station. While you can run on a higher octane than 87 there is no point in spending the additional cost.

[TXGOAT2]

Ethanol has a high octane equivalency. So does water. For that matter, so does CO2. A good octane enhancer is one that does not degrade fuel value.

[Allan]

Propane and valve recession went hand in hand when systems were first introduced here. The machine shop I use loved the stuff. They made a good living rebuilding cast iron heads with new hardened inserts. They showed me one head off a Chrysler Valiant 6 where the valves had receded so far the cam could not lift the valves out of the recession. How it was still able to run was incredible. Those recessions were so deep there was no hardened replacement seat available that could be used in a rebuild.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

I've seen Ford FE V8 heads in that condition, but I don't know what circumstances led to the problem. I bought two very well used 1980 Chevrolet trucks from a propane dealer who ran them on propane. They had the big block truck HD truck engines. Both had valve issues. Both of them were in heavy commercial service from day one.

[Bryant]

It appears ethanol is 113 octane so mixed at 10% to 85 octane it will raise it 2 points to 87 octane. So I guess you wouldn’t lose to much considering gas of the twenty’s was about 40

[Kaiser]

A well built Propane/LPG system should not pose a greater danger than running a car on gasoline, maybe even less so.
In our country LPG remains fairly popular and almost no accidents related to the fuel system occur,
Now electric cars, there's a different story, most fire departments over here keep a shipping container at the ready without a top, that they can fill with water to dump an electric car into that has caught on fire as they are almost impossible to extinguish

[TXGOAT2]

The best octane enhancer for motor fuel use is tetraethyl lead. Our Dear Leaders' war on whatever is practical has put that off limits. More expensive and less effective substitutes are now in use. Among these are toluene and ethanol. I supose people who drink a lot of motor gasoline are marginally better off, but no one else is, except the purveyors of ethanol and the ethnanol/corn subsidy toadies. It does increase demand for crude oil, since it takes substantially more crude oil to produce a given amount of motor gasoline than it once did. I believe the Ruling Class are still allowed to fuel their private aircraft with "leaded" fuel.

[John Codman]

I cannot think of any reason why you would need to add a water pump and thermostat. I have seen many small gas engines that are air-cooled run just fine on Propane without any induction system enhancements. I do realize that air-cooled engines run hotter then liquid-cooled powerplants, but that shouldn't affect the induction system. A model T should be able to be converted to Propane without any downside (Other then the higher price of Propane as opposed to gasoline). Remember that Propane has less energy content per gallon then does gasoline, so your fuel economy will be less on Propane then with gasoline.

[TXGOAT2]

As I understand it, the freeze-up problem with propane and other liquid fuel systems is not in the engine's intake tract, but in the regulator/gasifier equipment that converts the liquid fuel into vapor, which is then fed to the intake. Vaporization and attendant refrigeration takes place inside the regulator/gasifier. The engine's intake would probably be less prone to "icing up" with a propane system, since fuel vaporization occurs in the regulator/gasifier, not in the carburetor and intake manifold. Manifold/carburetor icing could still occur due to ambient moisture and chilling due to air/fuel mixture expansion at and downstream of the throttle valve. I've had problems with small propane tanks "freezing" when fuel demand is relatively high, especially as the supply of liquid in the tank is getting low. In that situation, evaporation of the liquid fuel is occuring in the tank, and the temperature of the liquid fuel in the tank falls low enough that it remains liquid at whatever the pressure inside the tank is. Fuel delivery stops, unless you apply heat to the tank or shake it to slosh the liquid around to allow it to collect more ambient heat. This usually doesn't occur in larger tanks due to thier larger surface area exposed to ambient heat. I've put smaller tanks in a tub of water to keep fuel flowing, and it works until the water freezes. In the larger, multi-cylinder systems I have, vaporization takes place in the regulator/gasifier, and they are connected to the engine cooling system to prevent freezeup. In smaller systems, vaporization apparently takes place within the supply tank, and not in the pressure regulator. I have run small antique engines on propane using only a BBQ type regulator and connecting the line fron the regulator to the gasoline line connection at the mixer. This works fine with throttle governed engines unless the propane bottle freezes up. Hit/miss engines need a demand regulator to run properly. They will run on propane at a steady load without one.

[Kerry]

Pat, you understand correct

[Bryant]

I still wouldn’t mind seeing a working prototype. I searched around but haven’t found any. Or even a picture of the carb from the MTFCA carburetor book.

[Bryant]

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I have no idea how close this carb is but what a sweet little set up! Zenith 101. Says it’s for 20hp twin kohler. Built in regulator.