1915 Magneto Headlights

[Original Smith]

I've noticed a number of early 15's on Toms posts lately with larger than normal headlights. The judging guidelines says these were 8 5/8". But it fails to mention the size they became. I have a '15 stored at another location, but don't feel like going over there to check. What is the new size?

[TRDxB2]

I've noticed a number of early 15's on Toms posts lately with larger than normal headlights. The judging guidelines says these were 8 5/8". But it fails to mention the size they became. I have a '15 stored at another location, but don't feel like going over there to check. What is the new size?

Out of curiosity what is the measure of, the OD of the rim, bucket lip or lens?

[Allan]

Our 1915 Canadian lights were mounted on the same forks as the previous gas lights, prior to the introduction of the single stem. I have never found any difference in the diameter of the lights. 1926-7 brass headlight rims are interchangeable if the 1915 originals are missing.

Allan from down under.

[CudaMan]

Bruce's book, page 201, says that early 1915 electric headlights were made by E&J and had an OD of 8-5/8" diameter vs. the later size of 8-1/8".

[Steve Jelf]

Mine are 9" across the rims, just like 17-27. I have a hard time imagining that rim fitting a bucket only 81/8", or even 85/8". Are there three sizes of 1915 buckets?

[KWTownsend]

Steve, I believe that is the lens diameter.

[Steve Jelf]

Overcome by curiosity, I went down to the shop and removed the rim from a 15-16 bucket. The 81/8" refers to the glass across the flats. The rim OD is 9".

[Wayne Sheldon]

There is a lot of conflicting information on this. I have been looking for the definitive answer for about thirty years now since I restored the late 1915/'16 center-door sedan I had. There were a few prototype "1915"s, sedans (at least two of them as one photo exists showing both of them!), and couplets (also at least two of them, doors opened the other direction!), as well as at least two touring cars (windshield is different!).Some of those prototypes had gas headlamps, and some of them at least some of the time had electric headlamps, which appeared larger than the standard production headlamps.
Actual production began on the couplets and sedans about September of 1914. Many if not most of the first couple months production of the couplets and sedans had slightly larger than the later production headlamps. Photos showing the larger headlamps are rare, and I don't think I have any good ones.
Problems stamping the new body panels caused delays as new methods of dies and stamping had to be developed. Actual production of runabouts began in December of 1914 (much less than a hundred runabouts that month!) with touring cars beginning in January of 1915 (again, small numbers!)
While a few early photographs have been seen showing early runabouts and touring cars with the earlier and larger headlamps? Those pictures are so few that they are likely an exception, not the rule. Perhaps one of the handful of earliest assembled open cars that was given the leftover few earliest headlamps? (Just speculating there?).
I almost always look very closely at the lamps on era photos of 1915 and 1916 model Ts. I almost never see the larger headlamps on open body model Ts of those years. I do occasionally see some of the odd shaped buckets, of normal size.
The 1915 headlamps are interesting. They were manufactured by at least three different companies, with minor changes over the first year at least. When I was putting together a pair for my early 1915 runabout, I had acquired about six or seven different buckets, all early versions of two different manufacturers. And of all of them, I had only two that actually matched each other. Although they were both in poor condition, I made the effort to restore them (came out looking really nice!) so I could have a proper matching pair. A discussion on the forum at that time lead to someone wanting one of the better ones I had, to hopefully match one he had for his restoration. I really wanted to be greedy and keep all that I had (to hopefully make a better match of a nicer pair for my car if I wanted to. But I let the nicest one go (I hope it worked out for him?).

The two obvious different styles vary around the bulb/plug socket. Both of course have the adjusting screw in the 12 o'clock position. One manufacturer had a rounded back of the bucket, NO flat area around the socket! These headlamps SOMETIMES have a circle stamping on the top half, about halfway between the socket and the rim. SOME of these buckets have enough of a stamping to see that the manufacturer's name is inside the circle. Most of them seem to be too lightly stamped to be read. I have had several of this style bucket over the years, and careful examination shows most of them cannot be read, some show no signs of a stamping at all, while a few clearly show the circle and some of the name can be read if carefully cleaned and not sanded.
The other manufacturer does have the small flat area around the socket, although said flat area is maybe slightly smaller and not as well defined as the later lamps are. These, I think may be John W Brown Co, they are stamped in a circle fashion around the socket with " J W B CO COLO USA MODEL 520 PAT APRIL 14 1914 ". When I restored mine, I took considerable care to make sure the stampings can still be seen and read.

While it appears that the headlamps settled in early to a couple minor variations, the oil side and tail lamps had quite a variety of early variations. Again, the biggest differences were found mostly on the early couplets and sedans. Those included smaller lenses, larger lenses, doors that opened
sideways, heavier looking bezels, all in at least a half dozen variations. There were a couple variations that show up in the first two months production of the 1915 style open body cars, and quite a few era photos do show up with them.

Just days ago, Tom Rootlieb shared this photo among many others.

Zoom in close to the sidelamps. You should be able to see that the font bowls are larger around, and flatter, with a crimped seam around the middle.
The difference doesn't end there. I have the matching tail-lamp for these. Although the lamp from a distance looks the same? NOTHING (except maybe the bezel?) in the lamp's parts are the same as the side and tail lamps used only a month or two later. (By the way, I would love to purchase a couple sidelamps to match my tail-lamp?)

Also notice, although without careful scaling to determine size, the headlamps on this early 1915 style touring car appear to be the standard common size.

And, THANK YOU Tom R!

[Original Smith]

I think the headlights posted above are the larger size.

[Russ_Furstnow]

Larry, Here is a photo of the headlights on my early 1915 Coupelet. They appear larger than the later headlights and the diameter of the lens is 8 5/8" The electric plug is at an angle facing down. The brass rims do not have the typical rivets holding the rim in place, but there are spring tabs on the body of the light that attach the rim to the lamp body. The mounting posts/brackets that hold the lamp to the fender iron are nearly identical to the later magneto headlights. The lights are quite distinctive when compared to the later headlights. I hope this helps. Russ Furstnow

[TRDxB2]

My initial question was with respect to the judging guidelines that reference 8 5/8" and I was curious if it further specified what is the measure of, the OD of the rim, bucket lip or lens? In trying to answer my question I am finding that there were many variations of headlight styles for that year.
The Model T encyclopedia states for 1915
-Headlamps were now electric, made of steel with brass rims. The brass rims were replaced with black-painted steel late in calendar 1915.
-LAMPS: Magneto powered electric type. Brass rims, with clear lens. Side and tail lamps are of new design, also with brass rims. Side lamps were interchangeable from side to side. The brass trim was discontinued late in the year.
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Fork Mounted bucket variations - adjusting screw differences as well as flat vs rounded around the socket
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1465890913
Variations
Fork mounting http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/24151.html
Post Mounting http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1455763853
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[Russ_Furstnow]

Frank, Fork mounted headlamps in 1915 were used on Canadian Fords. There is no evidence of forked electric headlamps used on American Fords. The "Price List of Accessories and Accessory Parts", dated 1915, describes two specific electric headlamps, one with a 8 5/8" lens and one with an 8 1/8" lens. There is no reference to forked electric headlamps in this booklet. I hope this helps. Russ Furstnow

[Allan]

My original 1915 tourer had fork mounted headlights. I have found new homes for a number of fork mounted headlights over the years. I have never seen a Ford script on one. Nor have I ever found one with the flat in the bucket around the bulb socket. Perhaps this indicates just one supplier to the Canadian factory. All have been of the standard dimension, having interchangeable components with later lights.

Allan from down under.

[Original Smith]

This is great information! Thanks to Russ for helping on this subject.

[Altair]

Great information but nobody mentioned that you could order a 15 with no headlights because they were accessories. It is conceivable that headlights could be added later in its life some, other models like Studebaker has the same style of headlights. Anything could be added later and may look original.

[Russ_Furstnow]

David, I hope others will chime in here, but I know of no American Model T's that were assembled WITHOUT headlamps in 1915. The booklet on accessories and accessory parts included items like gas and electric headlamps, side and tail lamps, windshields (both open and closed cars), tops and speedometers (a true accessory in 1915). I would like to know where you found the information stating that you could order a Model T without headlamps in 1915. Documentation about these types of issues is always welcome. Russ Furstnow

[Steve Jelf]

When a feature is optional or extra (think early 1909 windshield), Bruce usually mentions that in the Encyclopedia. If the 1915 cars could be ordered without mag lights (and with gas headlamps?) he doesn't say so.

[TRDxB2]

So back to the question
by Original Smith » Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:00 pm
I've noticed a number of early 15's on Toms posts lately with larger than normal headlights. The judging guidelines says these were 8 5/8". But it fails to mention the size they became. I have a '15 stored at another location, but don't feel like going over there to check. What is the new size?
The encyclopedia indicates that the 8-5/8 inches in diameter were on the larger headlights made by Edmond and Jones that were on the earliest 1915 closed car models, instead of the standard 8-1/8inches. AND All early 1915 lamps had brass rims, but these earliest lamps had rims that were thicker.

Model Crossover nightmare - These are letters & pictures not orders or a production run
From http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc14.htm
SEP 19 Acc. 575, Ford Archives
Tube specified for headlight wire across lower part of radiator. To be made of defective radiator tubes. Old tube for gas lamps is to be discontinued. Holes are added in side walls of radiator and this new tube is to be put in place by spreading the radiator fins and is to then be soldered in place.
SEP 23 Acc. 833, Photo 1527, Ford Archives
Photo of 1915 Coupelet. Shows fork-mounted electric headlamps.
SEP 23 Acc. 833, Photo 1621, Ford Archives
Photo of 1915 Sedan. Fork-mounted headlamps and lantern-like side lamp. Curved front and rear fenders.
SEP 23 Acc. 833, Photo 1546, Ford Archives
Photo of 1915 Sedan with gas headlamps
SEP 23 Acc. 833, Photo 1470, Ford Archives
Photo of 1915-style Touring with odd post-mounted electric headlamps, no louvers in the hood, brass steering wheel spider and 1914-type steering gear box


From https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915-16H.htm
Lamps
Along with the new styling came another modification to the Ford car: electric lights. While there were examples of early 1915’s with gas lamps, the standard issue was electric headlamps, powered by the engine magneto. Not wanting to startle the public too much, though, the side and tail lights continued to be of the oil (kerosene) type, although they were of a new and cheaper design.

Since the 1914 style open cars continued into 1915, and all apparently used the 1914 style black and brass gas and side/tail lamps, there was most certainly a period of mixed production. Early photos have been seen of 1915 cars with the gas lamps. Factory photos of 1914 cars with electric lamps, though, are another matter. The factory issued a letter on January 12, 1915, which advised that the crossover tube on the radiator, for the gas lamps, was being discontinued “as all cars now have electric lights.” This would lead one to believe, then, that the 1914 style cars then being assembled would have had electric lamps. It is believed that all of the 1914 style cars used gas lamps, probably using up the remainder of the radiators with the gas tube, and that where a photo shows the electric type, someone other than Ford made the switch.

The first electric headlamps were designed to mount on the same forks that were used for the gas lamps. By early 1915, though, the standard design with the riveted-in-place post was standard equipment. The earliest 1915 electric headlamps, used on the closed cars in late 1914, were somewhat different from the later. Made by Edmond and Jones, they were a little larger than the “standard,” having lenses 8-5/8 inches in diameter (instead of the standard 8-1/8inches). All early 1915 lamps had brass rims, but these earliest lamps had rims that were thicker. The early side lamps, too, had larger lens and brass trim.

Electric headlamps, and oil tail and side lamps, with brass rims were standard equipment on the 1915’s. By about June of 1915, the brass trim was discontinued on all lamps. The bulbs of the headlamps were wired in series, and connected to the magneto through a push-pull switch on the firewall just to the right of the coil box.

The side and tail lamps were of a new design. Not only were they cheaper, the side lamps could be interchanged from side to side. The tail lamp had a large red lens on the door, and a clear lens on the side facing the license plate (towards the center of the car). Both types mounted by means of a stud on the rear side.
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Does anyone have an Order Form or Build document for a 1915 to see how a Model T could be ordered?

[Altair]

You could order any Model T with out headlights I have seen pictures of them. Not unlike after 1919 when electric starters were standard equipment you still could order a car non-electric. The non electric models came with kerosene side lamps and the electric models did not. To day you can still order brass reproduction kerosene lamp brackets, the originals were cast iron. If you chose to crank the car that was up to you, it was your choice. Any Model T may be ordered less headlights because of its use day time only and it would shave a few dollars off the price. Even today when Ford Explorers were standard with four wheel drive one could still order two wheel drive. If you did not want headlights on your car there is no reason for the factory to put them on even if they were standard equipment. This would not be highly publicized only the customer would know. To day you can buy scooters and small motorcycles and not register them because they were never used on the public roads, some body buys it ten years later and wonders why it was never registered. I purchased a mobile home trailer and parked it at our lake site, it has been there for over 20 years and it is not registered. You have to be somewhat flexible not everything is the same way all of the time, we live in a world of variables.

[Allan]

I find it hard to believe that the relationship between the dealers and the Ford factory would allow for the deletion /addition of items to cars rolling down the assembly line to any special order. We are not talking computer controlled delivery to the production line here, with specific cars allocated to certain dealers. Dealers may possibly remove lights once their allocation of cars was delivered, but they would be left holding the stock.

With increasing involvement of the States in taxes/registration/vehicle standards, it is also unlikely that a car could be registered without having lights. This does not preclude any owner from removing them of course.

Allan from down under.

[Russ_Furstnow]

David,
I asked you to provide and documentation regarding someone ordering their Ford without headlamps from the factory. Here is what I found. In the December 1914 and subsequent issues of the "Ford Times" magazine, on pages 141 -143, each Ford model available is listed by price. What comes next is: "New Ford Coupelet, fully equipped, f.o.b. Detroit." It also states on page 143, "No options given on colors, Tires or Equipment." I think it is clear that Ford sold its cars "fully equipped" with all the necessary items as shown in the photos of each model of it cars. Could an owner take off the headlamps....sure he could, but the car was delivered to him WITH headlamps. Just my thoughts,
Russ Furstnow

[TRDxB2]

Found this Could mean anything. One thing from reading many past discussions on the subject relates to the commutator wiring harness have 4 or 5 wires or 4 wires with an extra wire for headlights. Now if some early '15 were at a dealership with gas lamps and the next delivery arrived with electric lamps he might just make a change at the request of a buyer - retaining the forks.

[Original Smith]

I have a 1915 radiator that had a radiator tube slightly bent in the middle into a very slight "U", and soldered to the bottom tank for the headlight wire.

[Altair]

In the 1915 parts catalog headlights are not listed, there are also references in documents "where equipped" with headlights, this would infer that you could order a car with out headlights. It would be most difficult to provide a copy of an order for same. If you read enough literature and documents there are several mentions of "if so equipped" "where equipped" that would infer that you could order a car without certain "standard components". During the war years when these cars were produced some people were paranoid about headlights. Many were taped off except for a small slit. I am sorry I cannot produce documentation of a personal order for a vehicle from the factory or dealership. It is still conceivable that the headlights could have been removed after the fact and replaced with a different brand or style that would appear as factory.