Is this a T rim or a Wanna-be?

[Chris Bamford]

I replaced the tires on my '26 Canadian Touring (15 years, thousands of miles, zero flats). Given the uncertain quality of new tubes, I'm reusing the 15-year old Universal brand tubes and hoping for the best.

Anyway, four of my rims have the common hinge-pin joiners (lower photo) and the fifth has a screw-thru-tongue latch system (upper photo). This fifth rim looks otherwise identical to the other four, but will not slide fully onto the felloe and the valve stem hole, which is in the correct spot, is slightly smaller diameter. The rim lugs sit about 1/4" proud of the fellow, which makes the rim bolts the same amount short, and the nut threads are only partially engaged.

This rim is OK for my spare tire—particularly if my no-flat luck holds—but I'm curious: is this not actually a T rim despite all the similarities, or is it perhaps a T rim made to fit a slightly different T felloe?

[TWrenn]

My '25/'26 Fordor has rims the same as the bottom photo. When changing a tire, it worked out nice.

[George House]

21” rim looks good - depends if lugs match to felloe bolt holes. Valve stem looks to have Peyronie’s disease.

[Mark Gregush]

Snicker, they make blue pills for that! (or is it green?)

[Norman Kling]

I have at least one which looks like your first picture. I haven't seen any like the second picture. If it fits your wheel and the valve lines up. Go for it. I put the tires on about 25 years ago and never had a flat. I have INSA tires Hecho en Chile. Best wearing T tires ever, but don't think they are still available. I also know I have some with a tab which fits into the rim with a twisting lock on it.
Norm

[Wayne Sheldon]

Your second photo, the hinge-pin type, are not common down here. But I did have one years ago and liked it. With the arrival of the internet, I learned that that rim I used to have may have been Canadian. How it found its way to California is anybody's guess.
Your odd one is common down here. The "tab/twist-latch" type that Norman K mentions are also common down here. They seem to run about fifty/fifty here.
I am curious why your rim would not fit properly. The two common type rims down here seem to fit all T 21 inch wheels equally well. Maybe there is some slight difference that interferes with the fit on Canadian Fellies? A good friend down here somehow ended up with Canadian 21 inch T wheels for his 1926. He had problems with fitting new spokes into his wheels because the Canadian fellies were slightly different than the USA fellies. It is also possible that the rim is slightly out-of-round and not seating properly?

[Allan]

The lower photo shows a Canadian rim. There should be a pair of holes -n the outside flange on either side of the rim join. These were used when an exceedingly rare tool was used to collapse the rim when fitting tyres.
The top one is just like a Chev one I used, but had to shift the valve stem hole. Is there a slotted lug nearest the valve stem hole?

Allan from down under.

[Chris Bamford]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Wayne, there is clearly slight interference between the rim and felloes, but likely not from an oblong rim... I hadn't checked it earlier as all four lugs bound up similarly, but upon a careful measure the diameter checks out within 1/16" at all points around the rim. If there was a bit of warp, it would have gone on anyway with a firm brass hammer, but there was no moving it further.

Allan, the first photo below shows those two holes, which are matched by an identical pair on the other side. I would dearly like to locate one of those rim tools. The reprint below is from a Ford of Canada August 1924 service bulletin and shows this tool and how it is used (plus another page of explanation, not shown). Very interesting to note that in summer 1924 Ford of Canada offered the split rims and balloon tires, which they describe as 4.40" x 29", as a $50 option. To my knowledge, these were not offered in the USA until the 1926 model year.

I am familiar with the almost-Model-T Chevy rims, and use a demountable clincher version for my '24 speedster spare. Its factory stem hole was in the wrong spot and had to be re-drilled. My odd rim has the stem hole as correct for Model Ts but no rogue hole elsewhere. It also has the slotted lug you asked about, but the slotting is not as pronounced as the other rims (2nd photo).

The Ford rim tool would be the way to go. I used a rim jack for this tire swap, and while it was manageable, the hinge-pin loops are easily damaged and tend to foul against the butt edge of the rim split. The one hinge-pin rim I illustrated in the OP had both loops on one side busted off long ago. When I mounted the previous tires in 2007, I tack-welded the two ends of the rim together to keep them aligned and gambled I wouldn't get many flats. That was a good bet, as there was nary a flat with any tire in 15 years.

The 1st photo shows the evidence of the hillbilly tack weld, the missing hinge loops, and how the rim split can easily foul those relatively fragile loops. I searched through a friend's junk pile and out of six rims there was only one usable loop fitting, which I salvaged and riveted onto my otherwise good rim. Looking at the Ford service bulletin, it appears that the Ford rim tool probably keeps the two rim butt edges from fouling as the rim is opened or closed.

[Wayne Sheldon]

No need to tack weld a rim because the latch system is broken. I and other people have driven many thousands of miles on these type split rims without working latches. These are not like the two or three part loose rings rims that have a history of killing people. No loose parts to fly off and amputate whatever gets in the way.
AS LONG AS the rim is not seriously deformed, worn badly, or rusted halfway through, around where the two ends meet? Once a tire is mounted, and aired up, as long as the ends meet close to nice and square? You have a circumference of over sixty inches (Pi times 21), times two inches width, for 120 square inches, times 30 psi equals about 3500 pounds of pressure pushing those two ends together! IT DOES NOT WANT TO MOVE! Even if it did somehow get hit and pop loose? It has nowhere to go! If it is mounted on a wheel, nothing short of a significant collision could knock it loose. And at that, it would probably blow the tire out regardless of whether the rim was latched or not! Even as a spare, in transit, or? Neither the rim or tire nor any other pieces have anywhere to go. It could possibly blow the tube out and make a loud noise? But it isn't going anywhere.

I did this a long time ago, just to prove the point. I had a rim that wasn't very good. It was rusted a bit thin, and more than somewhat warped. I mounted a bad tire, with a bad tube (slow leak and seams failing). Aired it up to about 30 psi, carefully aligning the two ends (because they were crooked). The alignment was still a bit off, which should weaken the pressure effects.
I then proceeded to beat the rim apart with a big sledge hammer! After almost five minutes, I almost gave up, but then decided to give it a few more carefully aimed blows. Another couple minutes and I succeeded in forcing the ends to separated and pop one end inward. And the tube blew at a seam. Nothing went anywhere. And it took a lot of effort to force that thing apart!
A funny thing about the entire exercise? The tire and pressure actually protected the rim remarkably well. As hard as I had beaten it, carefully avoiding direct blows to the fixed lugs? The rim was hardly damaged. I soon after used that same rim as my first effort to straighten bent or warped rims. Again figuring I had nothing to lose, I straightened it! And then cleaned it up, and painted it. I used that rim, without a working latch, on the model T I drove most at that time, for thousands of miles.

If anyone decides to run rims without working latches? I do recommend some simple precautions (I am not a complete fool!). Try to make sure the ends line up reasonably. If practical, put the rim on a wheel to hold the rim in alignment until the pressure gets high enough to push the two ends together. Double check the rim alignment (you can do this with the rim on a wheel by just looking at the rim sides). Use some caution when handling. While unlikely, it is possible the rim could pop loose. Keep fingers and hands and face some inches away from the split.


It is also possible that your rim is for something other than a model T or Chevrolet. I know Star, and I think a model of Overland, as well as other few, used similar fixed lug rims.

Also, Ford of USA offered the 21 inch so-called balloon tires and wheels beginning early for the 1925 model year.

[DickC]

I am not an expert on rims but have had some recent experience with a rim on a 25 I recently bought. I was told that the tire mounted of the spare tire carrier would not go on the wheels mounted on the car. I tried and he was correct. In looking at the rim I noticed that it had the "hinge" closer where all the others had the screw clamp. Then I realized that the rims on the car were Hayes and the spare rim was a Kelsey. I suggest that your car being Canadian probably used Kelsey wheels and rims and the clamp type of rim you have is a Hayes. Kelsey and Hayes appear to not interchange. But what do I know!!

[Wayne Sheldon]

Having manufacturer matched rims and wheels can be important on the clincher demountable wheels and rims. The fit between Kelsey and Hayes as well as Ford made and one other I don't offhand recall the name of, as well as some minor changes made between 1919 and the mid 1920s, resulted in a few that would cross over with some difficulty, and a couple others that while they could be used at low speeds, would never fit well and could actually break something if pushed hard.
When USA Ford brought out the 21 inch so-called balloon tires and wheels, there were a few early odd versions, mostly lost to time. But very early, all balloon rims and wheels regardless of manufacturer were specified to fit any rim to any wheel. regardless of who made them.
However, again, the Canadian fellies were slightly different. Whether that difference affected the fit of the rim or not? I do not know. As I previously mentioned, I did have an apparent Canadian rim many years ago. And it fit my USA wheels just fine.

[Allan]

That special tool is really rare. I have only ever seen/handled one,which I bought for a friend in Western Australia. It is made with what appears to be 5/16" spring steel wire. The components are wound together during manufacture, making for a tool of multiple parts which cannot be dis-assembled. It would have required some special tooling to make it in the first place.

In use, four ends engage in the four holes either side of the split. As the handles are brought together, not only do they collapse the rim, each half is cranked into the holes as the handles are brought together. Good luck trying to replicate it!!!
Allan from down under.

[BHarper]

I have nothing to add to this discussion other than the following pictures of the Canadian Rim Tool, pictures which I culled from the interweb some years ago.

Canadian Split Rim 47214.jpg (36.84 KiB) Viewed 2623 times

[Wayne Sheldon]

Hey there Bill H! Looks like a good contribution to me.

[ModelTWoods]

The type with the slotted retaining bolt is what I and most 26-27 owners consider correct for those years. They replaced the earlier rotating latch type rim. I have seen pictures of the piano hing type, before, but never knew they were Canadian.