More death wobble

[Bobbbenner]

I’m learning about my 22 touring as I am trying to make it a car to use around town. A week or so ago I took my wife for a ride to ‘pick up a few things’. It was the longest trip yet with the car for us.
On the way home we aimed to stop at the milk store and as I was almost there I hit a bump and‘the wobble’ happened. It happened a few more times as well. So I put her away except for slow turns around our farm, and began to research the problem. Recently there has been a couple of posts about how to scope out possible causes. With that information and a couple of articles from Murray Farnestock’s The model T Ford owner, I’ve checked out camber, toe in, front axel rake and general tightness on the various bolts holding the front end together and the steering having little play. Everything checked out, (I believe), except for the spindle connecting rod bolts which have about a sixteenth inch play in them.

My question is how tight should I make them hoping that they are the cause of the wobble.

[Steve Jelf]

Have you checked the shackles? A stuck one can cause death wobble too.

[RGould1910]

If you haven't already, make sure the ball and socket joints on the drag link have just enuf play so the wheels turn freely. Ive used leather shims between the ball and socket made from the tongue of old shoes. Seems I've also seen metal shims offered bt the parts houses

[Eric Sole]

Bob, I think you have found the cause of your wobble. The 2 tie rod bolts have a shoulder that will not allow them to compress any more than they already are. The 1/16" play is due to wear and is quite common since these parts have an oiler but many times didn't get oiled.

Mine were worn but the car didn't wobble because it was wearing the accessory springs to take up the wear. When I took them off to see if they really did anything I immediately got the death wobble.

Replacing the tie rod bolts killed the death wobble.

[Eric Sole]

BTW, these are the accessory anti rattler springs that take up the play in the tie rod bolts.

[Dan Hatch]

You need to check everything on the front end. EVERYTHING, Don’t forget the ball socket on oil pan.

[A Whiteman]

general tightness on the various bolts

It is not just how tight the bolts are, but the play in the bushes. You can have 'tight bolts' but still slop in the bushes. Only way to be sure is to replace bushes and probably the bolt too. These are all available from suppliers.

[TWrenn]

You need to check everything on the front end. EVERYTHING, Don’t forget the ball socket on oil pan.

Not stealing Dan's thunder here...but I had the same thought while going through this thread. So figured to
toss in my "extra 2 cents" and say the same...just go through it ALL. Don't forget the gears/pins up in the steering box under the wheel while you're at it. Check the threads of the axle yokes also...they get worn out and people don't even notice it.

[John kuehn]

The best way to check the front end for looseness and wobble is to jack the front end completely off of the ground.
Place two Jack stands under each side under the frame and not under the axle.

Use the steering wheel and slowly turn the wheel from side to side. Or you can take one wheel and move it that way. Do the same on the other wheel.

You will soon feel the slack or sloppiness as you move the front end assembly back and forth.

It probably needs to be removed to go through it completely. It’s not hard to do and you’ll be glad you did.

Drop it completely off the frame and lay it on the bench to work on it. That’s the easiest way to do it and replace everything. Also the ball cap joint needs checking too.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Of course, find the source of the wobble. Good information posted so far. A Model A or T is no fun to drive when you are constantly worried about a potential death wobble occurring.

But in the meantime before you fix the problem, should you drive the T again and it begins to wobble, you don't need to completely stop the car to also stop the wobbling. Simply use the steering wheel to make quick, wide, sweeping turns back and forth, not making full revolutions. Maybe 1/2 turn each way from center. Within one or two such maneuvers, the wobbling will cease. Naturally, you want to do this where the road and traffic permit. But stopping the T dead in the road is more dangerous than a couple small weavings in your lane. This has always worked for me when driving new, unknown acquisitions with a poor mechanical restoration or a friend's balky Model T or A.
Marshall

[Norman Kling]

On the opposite end of the spindle arm where it is bolted onto the spindle, I have had that nut a bit loose allowing the arm to move in the spindle. Be sure it is completely tight and a cotter pin in the nut.
Norm

[TRDxB2]

Since a wobble felt while driving can be caused with wheels, front & rear axle issues, I'd suggest that you have someone follow the car as you wobble down the road to see if they can add some focus on what's wobbeling.

[Art M]

I had the death wobble aix years ago. I found the spindle bolt to be loose. It was loose in the upper axle fit and in the bushings. I made the repairs and have not had any problems since.

Art Mirtes

[Bobbbenner]

Thanks to all that responded to my question. I am ordering the parts needed.
How do you exchange the bushings? What tool does one use. Or is there a work around?

[Altair]

Also check that the spring pearchs are on the correct sides, the odd number is on the driver's side and the even number is on the passenger side. You can't tell by looking at them, if they are on the wrong sides the steering will be awful. they are very easy to go on backwards. The front axle can be simply rotated to correct it.

[jab35]

Bob: I used a piece or 3/8" threaded rod, nuts, washers and a 3/8" drive deepwell socket a little larger than the od of the bushing. Use the new bushing to force the old one out to the inside of the socket. Its a fairly common technique, requiring careful alignment of new and old bushing but it's basically a one step procedure. It will take a fair bit of torque to break the old sleeve loose, oil liberally, good luck, jb

[Steve Jelf]

How do you exchange the bushings?

I'll get to the tools later, but before you buy the stock steel bushings I want to let you know that you can buy bronze bushings by size on the internet. I would rather wear out bushings than the parts they bush.

Front perch bushings(#3820) are ⁹⁄₁₆" ID and ¹¹⁄₁₆" OD, 1½" long.
Rear perch bushings (#3844) are ⁹⁄₁₆" ID and ¾" OD, 2" long.
Hand crank bushings (#3909) are OD 1", ID ¾", 2⅝" long,
Spindle arm bushings (#2714) are OD ¹¹⁄₁₆", and ID ⁹⁄₁₆", 1" long.
Parking brake cam bushings(#2559*) are 1⅛" long, OD ¹¹⁄₁₆", and ID ½".

*1909-1925.

[John kuehn]

Let this be a learning experience. After you replace all the bushings as Steve J. mentioned
and the others in the axle, tie rods and possibly the ball joint under the engine you will be amazed how tighter, and reactive your T is when turn the steering wheel. You can do it! There is lots of information on the forum in getting it done and tools to use.

[Professor Fate]

I would rather wear out bushings than the parts they bush.
.

We'll stated Steve.
I was asked last week "steel or brass?"
I chose brass for the exact reason you mention.

[speedytinc]

I would rather wear out bushings than the parts they bush.
.

We'll stated Steve.
I was asked last week "steel or brass?"
I chose brass for the exact reason you mention.

Dissimilar metals should not wear fast if kept properly lubricated. Dissimilar in this case being hardened & soft steel. The steel bushing will wear first. The bolt should not. I dont see an advantage to brass, other than to make for tighter clearance for worn tie rod bolts. (Custom fits) Brass will wear & pound out faster. So I have stayed with steel & replace the tie rod bolts with new for a front end restoration. Its been a once per the life of any T I have owned & for others I have restored.
I am open to other ideas if they work in practice. Are you making more work for yourself if the brass wears faster?

[Professor Fate]

You make a very good argument. This will probably just end up being a personal preference "thing."

[Steve Jelf]

Dissimilar metals should not wear fast if kept properly lubricated.

True. But bushings are not always kept properly lubricated. I expect most of us have seen cases of hardened steel being worn out by poorly lubricated (or unlubricated) soft steel.

I can't prove it with an empirical study, but I suspect this kind of wear on hardened steel parts is less likely with softer (bronze) bushings. I'll leave it up to posterity to prove or disprove that.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd think the bronze bushings would perform better if kept reasonabley clean and oiled. A car that was run in dirt and mud might hold up better with the steel bushes. Wear would occur with either, but the bronze might allow grit to embed, where as hard steel would be less likely to do so.

[Allan]

The whole purpose of rebuilding a front end is to eliminate all points of play. I have never found split steel bushes perfectly round, nor of as close a fit as I can make with hand reamed [if necessary] bronze bushes. Lubrication is all important with any bushing.

Allan from down under.

[Tim Hales]

Good thread a lot of info. but my problem is my spindle arm on passengers' side is worn. a new bushing will not tighten in the steering rod. i have not found the spindle arm for sale Snyder's does not refurbish them any longer. ford part number is .t 2696 any thoughts .Tim Hales

[RajoRacer]

Are you needing a straight arm for your '15 ? I might have a decent orphan.

[Tim Hales]

Hi Steve yes it is the passenger side. it has a hole for a speedometer but i don't have one i do not know if there is a difference r or l just a quick measure it is about 5 .5 inches center to boss . the driver side seams tight .must have gotten more oil in its life ...Tim

[TRDxB2]

Hi Steve yes it is the passenger side. it has a hole for a speedometer but i don't have one i do not know if there is a difference r or l just a quick measure it is about 5 .5 inches center to boss . the driver side seams tight .must have gotten more oil in its life ...Tim

I have a good straight one. Will trade for the one you have with a hole (need to see it first). We each pay for shipping to one another via USPS Priority mail. (I secure these items to a flat piece of cardboard to prevent them becoming a torpedo through the end of a box and tape the sides all the way around. I also have one with the speedometer hole but not for trade

[Bobbbenner]

I have received the bushings and new bolts for the tie rod replacement. I tried to push out the bushing without taking off the spindle arm by placing a jack under it so I wouldn’t bend the spindle arm. Bushing didn’t seem to move. I took off the large 7/8” nut on the spindle arm figuring that I would have better control if I put it in a vice. That nut was very tight, needed extension on the wrench to loosen. From what I’ve read that is good. Left the nut sticking out to drive the spindle arm out, whacked it with a piece of wood on the nut, no movement. Put penetrating solution on all components and walked away.

Questions?

How does one get the spindle arm out without messing up the castle nut?
Can you replace the tie rod bushings with the spindle arm attached?
If the spindle arm is taken off to replace the bushings how do you put it back with the proper alignment?
Should the spindle arm move during normal travel?

Wanted to change out these parts before my mentor comes back from his vacation Friday! Don’t want to make the job worse because of ignorance.

Picture of current condition.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I have received the bushings and new bolts for the tie rod replacement. I tried to push out the bushing without taking off the spindle arm by placing a jack under it so I wouldn’t bend the spindle arm. Bushing didn’t seem to move. I took off the large 7/8” nut on the spindle arm figuring that I would have better control if I put it in a vice. That nut was very tight, needed extension on the wrench to loosen. From what I’ve read that is good. Left the nut sticking out to drive the spindle arm out, whacked it with a piece of wood on the nut, no movement. Put penetrating solution on all components and walked away.

Questions?

How does one get the spindle arm out without messing up the castle nut?
Can you replace the tie rod bushings with the spindle arm attached?
If the spindle arm is taken off to replace the bushings how do you put it back with the proper alignment?
Should the spindle arm move during normal travel?

Wanted to change out these parts before my mentor comes back from his vacation Friday! Don’t want to make the job worse because of ignorance.

Picture of current condition.

Buy this tool. If you don't want to have it around afterwards, sell it in the Forum classifieds.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2714DR.aspx

With the arm supported properly, you can use this driver, along the hammer of your choice, to drive out the bushings. BTW, leave the spindle arm in the spindle. They can be a bear to remove and not necessary.

[mbowen]

It would be a lot easier just to remove the wheel, unbolt the spindle from the axle, then use the tool Jerry mentioned at the bench. That way you won’t have to worry about getting the arm alignment correct.

[jab35]

Bob: I had good luck using 3/8" threaded rod, washers and nuts, and a 3/8" drive deep well sparkplug socket as a 'puller' to draw the new bushing in while it forces the old bushing into the cavity of the socket. The cavity of the socket must be large enough for the o.d. of the old bushing to fit inside but small enough so the edge of the socket sits squarely on the arm. Alignment of the new to old bushing is critical, and it helps to relieve the outer 'corner'/circumference of the new bushing where it enters the arm. Bushing to bushing alignment is easier if you use a sleeve with 3/8" i.d. that fits snugly in the bore at the juncture of the new/old bushing. Once the new bushing enters the spindle arm hole the alignment is maintained. Oil liberally once you have things aligned.

Alignment on the exit side is important too so the old bushing has a clear pathway into the socket. This technique has been shown repeatedly for similar situations on the forum, so it is a familiar low tech solution. I would place the new bushing on top of the old in the arm, then insert the 3/8 rod with the alignment sleeve, top washers and nut downward and slide the socket up from underneath, place washers and nut on bottom, align socket, oil and wrench

Do not remove the spindle arms and I prefer not to beat bushings in/out even with the so-called 'drivers'. If you resort to a two step -- (1)remove old then (2) insert new, the threaded rod/bolt, nut and washer 'puller' to insert new one is still superior to beating it with hammer and 'driver'. (And from my experience, you will likely need to ream the new bushings slightly to get yolk bolts to fit arm bushings once they are installed.) Good luck, jb

[Bobbbenner]

Is this what you mean Jim?

[speedytinc]

If you have a press, remove the spindle. Use the bushing driver tool or equivalent in the press.
If no press, this threaded rod with spacers & bushings will do it.

[Allan]

The simplest way to re-align the spindle arm if you do remove it is to leave it loose in the spindle as you refit it,. Then hook up the tie rod and it will dictate the correct alignment. Only then do you tighten the spindle arm nut.

Allan from down under.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

It would be a lot easier just to remove the wheel, unbolt the spindle from the axle, then use the tool Jerry mentioned at the bench. That way you won’t have to worry about getting the arm alignment correct.

True! Also allows you to inspect the kingpins and wheel bearings.

[TRDxB2]

Steve Jelf DIY bushing tool. Smaller tube OD same as bushing wall OD. Larger tube acts as an anvil large enough for a secure base but its ID needs to allow the bushing to slide into it. Adapt parts to fit your busing needs.