1926 T Running Hot

[lirogo27]

Hey folks. I have a question for you all. Car is tending to run hot very quickly. The Motometer showing above the top of the spectrum within 30 minutes. I don't recall that happening before. Is this normal? Any thoughts what it could be (if it is not normal)? I have read some old posts and postings on the forum as to what it could be, but I wanted to 're-present' it to you all. Nothing has changed with the car in the past two weeks other than an oil change, new rebuilt 6v starter install.

THX!

[Norman Kling]

Do you have rust inhibitor and distilled water in the cooling system or 50 50 anti freeze. Our Southern California water is very hard and leaves mineral deposits if tap water has been used in it.
Are you checking the coolant level before every time you drive the car? Some radiators have a baffle about half way up the top tank and if that baffle is wet, it can appear to be water, but the actual level is below that.
Norm

[jiminbartow]

What year is your T? Your profile states that you do not own one yet and that you are looking for your first. Is your radiator original, an old replacement, or new? Sounds like it is stopped up. Do you have a water pump? If so, consider removing it. The Model T thermo-siphon system was designed to run without a water pump. When was the last time you had your radiator cleaned? 50-50 mixture should be changed each year. Neglecting to change the anti-freeze/water mixture annually, can actually become harmful to the system. You should consider removing the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop to be flushed and the tubes cleaned. Jim Patrick

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[George House]

As usual Norm gives excellent advice. I assume the T gets hot within 30 minutes of motion and not running in a garage. Another item you might check is the fan and fan belt. The service manual states it should take 5 pounds of effort to dislodge a fan blade/pulley from the fan belt. If too loose or pulley frozen to shaft, this could cause quick overheating.

[DanTreace]

Hey folks. I have a question for you all. Car is tending to run hot very quickly. The Motometer showing above the top of the spectrum within 30 minutes. I don't recall that happening before. Nothing has changed with the car in the past two weeks other than an oil change, new rebuilt 6v starter install.

THX!

A good check of the coolant level may help. The level should be at least at or slightly above the Ford ‘script’ on the radiator shell. Low coolant interferes the normal thermo-syphon flow.

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[Moxie26]

Do you advance your timing when you go out for a ride or keep it retarded?.... The cooling system takes approximately 3 gallons.

[lirogo27]

What year is your T? Your profile states that you do not own one yet and that you are looking for your first. Is your radiator original, an old replacement, or new? Sounds like it is stopped up. Do you have a water pump? If so, consider removing it. The Model T thermo-siphon system was designed to run without a water pump. When was the last time you had your radiator cleaned? 50-50 mixture should be changed each year. Neglecting to change the anti-freeze/water mixture annually, can actually become harmful to the system. You should consider removing the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop to be flushed and the tubes cleaned. Jim Patrick


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Jim...Sorry I will change my profile. I have a 1926 T Coupe. I will change that. I bought my first T in March. I bought the car from someone who had it two years. I believe he bought it from an estate where the garage was garaged for over 40 years. The owner who had it two years - had it flushed. I don't know more than that about the history - only what the previous owner did. No water pump. The fluid was changed at least twice in the past 2 years.

[lirogo27]

What year is your T? Your profile states that you do not own one yet and that you are looking for your first. Is your radiator original, an old replacement, or new? Sounds like it is stopped up. Do you have a water pump? If so, consider removing it. The Model T thermo-siphon system was designed to run without a water pump. When was the last time you had your radiator cleaned? 50-50 mixture should be changed each year. Neglecting to change the anti-freeze/water mixture annually, can actually become harmful to the system. You should consider removing the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop to be flushed and the tubes cleaned. Jim Patrick


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Jim - Profile updated. THX. I forgot to change it when I bought the T.

[lirogo27]

As usual Norm gives excellent advice. I assume the T gets hot within 30 minutes of motion and not running in a garage. Another item you might check is the fan and fan belt. The service manual states it should take 5 pounds of effort to dislodge a fan blade/pulley from the fan belt. If too loose or pulley frozen to shaft, this could cause quick overheating.

actually - we let it run about 20 minutes in place because it seemed as if the car was firing on three cylinder and not four. The car evened out. Will pull the plugs and clean them next week. On the radiator - There was overflow from the overflow tube causing lots of steam. We turned the car off. drained a cup of fluid and the overflow stopped. We went for a ride in the car and within 20 minutes driving around the neighborhood the motometer was close to top.

[lirogo27]

George. Thank you. I am making a list of all these things and will tick through all suggestions next weekend. Starting with simple things first....and advance to more complicated and extensive if nothing simple works....

[Professor Fate]

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Do you advance your timing when you go out for a ride or keep it retarded?.... The cooling system takes approximately 3 gallons.

Running without advancing timing as per chart, and not getting at least 20 mph of speed to force air thru your radiator will make your car overheat. Stop and go traffic in hot temps will make the car run "warm..."

[jiminbartow]

Lisa. As soon as I posted my question as to what year your Model T was, I read in the title of your post that it’s a 1926, so I deleted the part of my post asking the year. Anyway, congratulations on finding your First Model T. I have a 1926 coupe. We look forward to a picture of yours.

The 1926-‘27 Model T has a different fan assembly. Be sure to add motor oil to the fan reservoir (located just aft of the fan), so the fan can turn properly so as to cool the water in the radiator. The shaft from the reservoir to the space between the bushings is hollow so as to deliver oil from the reservoir to the space to lubricate the length of the shaft. Jim Patrick

[MichaelPawelek]

Besides having the spark advanced enough be sure the control knob to the carburetor is adjusted properly. This is the choke knob that pulls in and out to start the engine. It also rotates left and right to adjust the amount of gas that flows into the carburetor.

Once the engine starts let it warm up a bit at a medium speed. Then turn the knob clock wise closing it until the motor stumbles a bit. Then turn it counter clock wise until the motor stumbles a bit. Now turn it in the middle of the two stumbles. If this area is set too lean the motor will gain poor speed and can over heat from a lean mixture.

[TXGOAT2]

Running the car for 20 minutes standing still could cause it to overheat, especially if the timing was late and the fan belt slipping. Draining anything out of the radiator due to spew at the overflow is not good, unless you replace it. Radiator coolant level should be checked with the engine cold and the coolant level should brought up to within an inch of the bottom of the filler neck. Any excess will go out the overflow tube as the engine warms up. It is normal for a Model T to run at 190 to 200 F in warm weather. It should not boil or blow steam out the overflow. Using the spark control correctly will help avoid overheating and give best performance. It's not a good idea to let the car run in "neutral" for any extended time. Doing so can cause needless wear on the clutch throwout fork. If you're not familiar with Model Ts, having a person with experince look you car over and perhaps demonstrate good operating practice can be very helpful. An owners manual and a service manual can be obtained at low cost and are very useful to have. Model Ts are not difficult to operate and maintain, but they are different from other cars, old or new.

[Norman Kling]

I do agree that running in one place for a long time will cause overheating especially on a hot day. They cool the best with air blowing through the radiator. You will get more air by driving than the fan will pull in. In fact, I started mine up cold in the garage and backed it out and checked all the tires. I used a compressor to air them up and left the engine running. It got quite warm in just that time, but not boiling.
Norm

[jiminbartow]

It gets very hot here in Florida. If I test run my T in place without driving, I position a powerful pedestal hurricane fan in front of the radiator and turn it on high to prevent boiling over during the stationary run. Jim Patrick

[Steve Jelf]

Go ahead and take all the recommended steps. But be ready for them to fail. This page explains why. https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG96.html

[lirogo27]

Guys! Thank you. I will read all these tonight when I get home after work. I printed the DG96 saturday evening and read it. Additionally, everything you guys post I print out for the future.

Also, does anyone have thoughts on the outlet connection pipe being the issue? Changing to brass (3939BR)?

[TWrenn]

Lisa, I doubt changing the outlet pipe will do anything, unless of course it's got a lot of restriction or even plugged up.
I didn't catch anyone (I just "skim read") asking if you have a round tube or a flat tube radiator? Round tube rads do not cool well.
And, any old rad, round or flat tube, just may need to be taken to a radiator shop and have it boiled out. Often that cures it. Likewise, now we're getting into more work and the shortage of head gaskets, but maybe some of the tiny little circulation holes in the head or the block have suddenly plugged up. It's always a possibility. Start with cleaning the radiator first.

[jiminbartow]

I have a brass outlet pipe in mine. Seems to keep the water cleaner for a longer time. One less source for rust to form. Looks good too. Jim Patrick

[Steve Jelf]

That's an inlet pipe. The outlet is on top. Yes, the brass is pretty, and won't rust. Will it make a significant difference in the temperature? Nope.

[speedytinc]

Drain enough fluid out to see the tops of the core tubes. You can get a good read on condition. Flakes of rust commonly settle in the tubes, blocking flow. In which case remove & flush with water & compressed air thru the outlet side.(bottom) A good chemical cleaning with coke typically helps, but those obstructive flakes gotta go. Whall you have the radiator off, look in the heads outlet fitting for loose rust. Use a shop vac to get as much out as possible. Block inlet fitting also, but not so much. If a bunch of junk is found, flush. Clean as much as you can short of pulling the head. Avoid needing to replace an elusive head gasket.

[lirogo27]

What year is your T? Your profile states that you do not own one yet and that you are looking for your first. Is your radiator original, an old replacement, or new? Sounds like it is stopped up. Do you have a water pump? If so, consider removing it. The Model T thermo-siphon system was designed to run without a water pump. When was the last time you had your radiator cleaned? 50-50 mixture should be changed each year. Neglecting to change the anti-freeze/water mixture annually, can actually become harmful to the system. You should consider removing the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop to be flushed and the tubes cleaned. Jim Patrick


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[lirogo27]

What year is your T? Your profile states that you do not own one yet and that you are looking for your first. Is your radiator original, an old replacement, or new? Sounds like it is stopped up. Do you have a water pump? If so, consider removing it. The Model T thermo-siphon system was designed to run without a water pump. When was the last time you had your radiator cleaned? 50-50 mixture should be changed each year. Neglecting to change the anti-freeze/water mixture annually, can actually become harmful to the system. You should consider removing the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop to be flushed and the tubes cleaned. Jim Patrick


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Jim, I just attached some pictures. No matter how I adjust or rotate them they still come sideways. Sorry! I will try to upload the video later. I LOVE my car. I just need to figure out what the root of the issues are and why now...ie if they are interrelated. Being new to the T and mechanics in general I am finding the learning process SLOW - hence my many outreaches to you all.

[lirogo27]

I have a brass outlet pipe in mine. Seems to keep the water cleaner for a longer time. One less source for rust to form. Looks good too. Jim Patrick


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I am thinking the brass is the way to go and it was a suggestion from Martynn. I will order it. THX

[lirogo27]

Lisa, I doubt changing the outlet pipe will do anything, unless of course it's got a lot of restriction or even plugged up.
I didn't catch anyone (I just "skim read") asking if you have a round tube or a flat tube radiator? Round tube rads do not cool well.
And, any old rad, round or flat tube, just may need to be taken to a radiator shop and have it boiled out. Often that cures it. Likewise, now we're getting into more work and the shortage of head gaskets, but maybe some of the tiny little circulation holes in the head or the block have suddenly plugged up. It's always a possibility. Start with cleaning the radiator first.

Tim I will take a look. THX!

[lirogo27]

That's an inlet pipe. The outlet is on top. Yes, the brass is pretty, and won't rust. Will it make a significant difference in the temperature? Nope.

ok. So much for the brass tube being a solution.

[John Codman]

I didn't read every post, but my '27 did precisely the same thing when I first bought it. I did everything that has been mentioned here including removing the cylinder head to check for block or head cracks and general crud in the cooling system. Nothing that I did made the slightest difference in the overheating. I then replaced the radiator with a new one, and now in the hot Florida Sun you can't make it overheat. BTW: no water pump.

[MichaelPawelek]

I use “ Postimage” for uploading jpegs to sites and they always came out sideways until I chose the 640x480 size for the pictures. I also choose the “hot link for forums” option.

[Steve Jelf]

No matter how I adjust or rotate them they still come sideways.

Using a real (not phone) camera I have had the sideways problem only with vertical format photos. (Recently people have started calling this the "portrait" format.) I have found that if I rotate the picture 90º either way and then rotate it back and save, it will show up here with the correct orientation. I don't know if that will work with phone pictures.

You can post nearly all photos here without reducing them in size. The website does that for you. Very rarely I get the dreaded yellow triangle telling me the file must be reduced. I ignore the numbers it gives me. I reduce the photo by a pixel or two and it posts.

I tried the rotate/rotate-back trick with your photo.
I also blew it up a little over 250%. That makes it bigger, but doesn't make it any sharper. The ability of software to sharpen photos is very limited. It's better to shoot the original pictures full size.

[Dan Hatch]

Yes Steve’s way of rotating pictures works with iPhone cameras. At least it does for me.

[lirogo27]

They are indeed phone pics - but properly oriented. When they arrived at my office (I emailed them here because I wanted to get them to Jim because he asked)....they arrived sideways. I save them in proper orientation and they reverted to the side shots. I then tried to save the previous pictures I saved properly rotated and they again reverted. LOL. So I figured I would deal with it after work tonight but fulfilled my goal of getting them to Jim.

I will follow all instructions on the attachment tweaks for next time. Thank you.

Back to the overheating - I will see if we can flush and do all the remedial options. If I have to go to new radiator I will. Just odd that it started up now immediately after the starter fix. Car had been perfectly fine. Oh well, That is how things happen....one after other!

[TXGOAT2]

Judging by appearances can be deceiving, but judging by the looks of that car, it's probably in pretty good shape. The fact that it only recently showed signs of overheating, and then after running at a standstill for about 20 minutes, suggests to me that it probably does not have serious issues. Get the starter problem out of the way, then make sure the radiator is full of coolant, fan belt adjusted properly and go drive the car, taking care to manage the spark and carburetor settings. Carry a couple of gallon jugs of water along. If it does overheat, a simple garden hose flush may suffice to correct it. Other possible problems that could contribute to overheating: 1. Brakes dragging when moving due to faulty adjustment. 2. Transmission bands dragging due to tight adjustment. 3. Thermostat, if present. (?) 4. fan mounted backwards. (?)

[lirogo27]

Judging by appearances can be deceiving, but judging by the looks of that car, it's probably in pretty good shape. The fact that it only recently showed signs of overheating, and then after running at a standstill for about 20 minutes, suggests to me that it probably does not have serious issues. Get the starter problem out of the way, then make sure the radiator is full of coolant, fan belt adjusted properly and go drive the car, taking care to manage the spark and carburetor settings. Carry a couple of gallon jugs of water along. If it does overheat, a simple garden hose flush may suffice to correct it. Other possible problems that could contribute to overheating: 1. Brakes dragging when moving due to faulty adjustment. 2. Transmission bands dragging due to tight adjustment. 3. Thermostat, if present. (?) 4. fan mounted backwards. (?)

Pat, it actually is in great shape. The Long Beach T guys looked it over thoroughly and gave their stamp of approval. I trust them IMPLICITLY. They are good guys. It is not a pretty pretty looking car but it runs well and idles very very very nicely. That is all I want - I don't need pretty but do want it running well. I can get better pics if you like. The car was likely subject to an old restoration in the 70's or 80's - that is my guess. It is also my guess that the car was garaged for quite a few years before the Estate sale the previous owner bought it at. It was a time capsule of sorts. The 1971 graduation tassel hanging on the rearview mirror was unfaded and in condition that made me think it was not hanging off the mirror long before it was garaged. It looked as if it was just placed there and not subject to direct sunlight. The radiator issue worries me less than the starter issue.

[jiminbartow]

Steve. Take a look at the engine drawing in my above post and below. Unless the Model T era diagram is wrong, the pipe going from the bottom of the radiator to the engine block is listed as the “outlet pipe”. The inlet pipe goes from the head to the radiator. No big deal but I just wanted to let you know in case it matters to someone else. I suppose It only matters if we are attempting to give advice to someone. Jim Patrick

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[jiminbartow]

Very Nice! Here are your pictures righted and cropped. Mine is a ‘26 coupe also. I have had mine for 52 years. Jim Patrick

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[TXGOAT2]

It is the radiator outlet pipe, but it's also the engine water inlet pipe. I've always thought of the lower hose as the inlet, and the upper one as the outlet.

[jiminbartow]

From Ford’s perspective and the way I have always understood it, the outlet and inlet refers to the water entering and exiting the radiator, not the water entering and exiting the water jacket of the block. Snyder’s and Lang’s also refers to the lower pipe as an outlet pipe. It really makes no difference to me what members call a part as long as it does not cause confusion to those seeking help. Respectfully submitted. Jim Patrick

[lirogo27]

What year is your T? Your profile states that you do not own one yet and that you are looking for your first. Is your radiator original, an old replacement, or new? Sounds like it is stopped up. Do you have a water pump? If so, consider removing it. The Model T thermo-siphon system was designed to run without a water pump. When was the last time you had your radiator cleaned? 50-50 mixture should be changed each year. Neglecting to change the anti-freeze/water mixture annually, can actually become harmful to the system. You should consider removing the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop to be flushed and the tubes cleaned. Jim Patrick


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This site does not appear to like videos....or I would post on the site a walk around video of the 1926! But Jim, check your emails as I believe i do have your email address from a previous discussion. I believe you should have a mail drop attachment you can open. It is an abbreviated version but you can see the T in the sun.....THX!

[Steve Jelf]

Part #3939: The Ford parts book calls it the outlet connection pipe. I called it the inlet because that's where it connects, but I'll use the ford designation to avoid confusion. It's the pipe connecting the radiator outlet to the engine inlet.

[lirogo27]

Part #3939: The Ford parts book calls it the outlet connection pipe. I called it the inlet because that's where it connects, but I'll use the ford designation to avoid confusion. It's the pipe connecting the radiator outlet to the engine inlet.

Mr. Jelf - you are saying this pipe is a non issue with my running hot situation and would not impact anything. Ok. Crossing off the list for now. THX. Will print up all the suggestions and start to implement the smaller first until things fixed. I am beginning to think it is the spark advance and my misuse - for lack of a better way. I will study the diagram sent on correct positionng/

[Steve Jelf]

Just to simplify (or complicate?) things, I believe Murray Fahnestock's widely circulated chart of lever positions is for driving on BAT. On MAG the spark lever has only three or four "ranges". There is no fine tuning. It seems there are two camps on this. In one group are those who are constantly adjusting the spark lever, and perceive the adjustments making a difference. In the other group are those who, once the engine is started, put the lever down to where the engine sounds best (about ¾) and leave it there. If the engine starts to "sound funny" in some circumstances they may try another adjustment, or not. Of course, I could be wrong. That did happen once.

[DHort]

Lisa

3939 steel or brass will not affect cooling, but I still changed both of my cars to brass.

The steel pipe will rust inside and the paint will come off and it will rust on the outside. How long it takes to do this I do not know.

The brass pipe will never rust so it is preferable. When you receive the pipe you want to hit it with a piece of sandpaper to scratch it up so the paint will stick. I paint mine black so it looks correct, but you can leave it smooth if you want. If you ever have to remove the radiator at some time in the future (to work on the engine, etc) disconnect the radiator at the inlet and outlet openings in the block. Leave the hoses attached to the radiator. This makes it easier to put the radiator back on, and less chance of future leaks. All you have to do then is install new gaskets.

[Steve Jelf]

I'll go Dave one better. Use new gaskets only once. Smear Ultra Black on the side of the gasket toward the radiator and stick it in place on the cast iron inlet or outlet. Then apply more Ultra Black to the side of the gasket facing the engine. Finally smear grease on the engine surfaces where the gaskets will go, and bolt the inlet and outlet in place. Tighten the bolts enough to flatten the sealant, let it set up, then tighten the bolts the rest of the way. You have just made permanent gaskets. In the future when you have to remove and reattach the inlet and outlet, just apply more grease.

[john in kzoo]

I was going to start my own post, but I guess I'll jump on this one.
My '15 touring's temp is fine when running on a warm day (85 degrees) when moving, it's halfway between the first line on the motometer and the glass circle. As soon as I stop for even 30 seconds, the temp rises into the lower part of the circle. Is that normal? Perhaps ignorance was bliss before getting a motometer....ha Yes, the spark is advanced fwiw

Thank you

John

[TXGOAT2]

Kzoo, that's probably normal. If the car doesn't boil or lose coolant, don't worry about it.

[Moxie26]

John.. as soon as you start going air will circulate through that radiator to cool down the contents and yes you will see the motor meter temperature drop. I've had experience for shutting down a T very shortly on a hot day you will hear a boiling sound coming from the engine compartment and it will go away after a little bit thermosiphon cooling starts operating around 190 to 200° f

[TWrenn]

John.. as soon as you start going air will circulate through that radiator to cool down the contents and yes you will see the motor meter temperature drop. I've had experience for shutting down a T very shortly on a hot day you will hear a boiling sound coming from the engine compartment and it will go away after a little bit thermosiphon cooling starts operating around 190 to 200° f

To expand a bit on this...I've had experiences where driving from "out in the hot sun", then through a fairly long "tunnel of trees"/shade, and actually watched the motometer DROP in that short period of time! This shows how well this thermosiphon system really works, and of course not to brag, but a very good cooling system on my car!!

[Moxie26]

Tim ..... You're correct !! Thermosiphon does work with those results

[lirogo27]

I'll go Dave one better. Use new gaskets only once. Smear Ultra Black on the side of the gasket toward the radiator and stick it in place on the cast iron inlet or outlet. Then apply more Ultra Black to the side of the gasket facing the engine. Finally smear grease on the engine surfaces where the gaskets will go, and bolt the inlet and outlet in place. Tighten the bolts enough to flatten the sealant, let it set up, then tighten the bolts the rest of the way. You have just made permanent gaskets. In the future when you have to remove and reattach the inlet and outlet, just apply more grease.

I love ultra black!

[jiminbartow]

My favorite is “The Right Stuff”. Jim Patrick

[lirogo27]

My favorite is “The Right Stuff”. Jim Patrick


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I thought the Ultra black was Permatex ie one in the same?

[Steve Jelf]

My favorite is “The Right Stuff”.

You must work faster than I do.

I thought the Ultra black was Permatex ie one in the same?

The Permatex company makes several different sealants. Ultra Black, #2, and The Right Stuff are some of them.

[lirogo27]

My favorite is “The Right Stuff”.

You must work faster than I do.

I thought the Ultra black was Permatex ie one in the same?

The Permatex company makes several different sealants. Ultra Black, #2, and The Right Stuff are some of them.

I like the ultra black.

[lirogo27]

ok all! Thank you. I will print all these suggestions out and start attacking them this weekend!!! I am betting on how I am setting the spark....

[jiminbartow]

Both are great products. The reason I have always preferred “The Right Stuff is because I read many years ago in a comparison study that “The Right Stuff” was found to be more resistant to oil than “Ultra Black”. You are correct that you must work fast if you purchase the one minute “Right Stuff”. Look closely at the “Right Stuff” package I posted. You don’t need to work fast if you purchase the 90 minute “The Right Stuff”. Jim Patrick

[lirogo27]

Both are great products. The reason I have always preferred “The Right Stuff is because I read many years ago in a comparison study that “The Right Stuff” was found to be more resistant to oil than “Ultra Black”. You are correct that you must work fast if you purchase the one minute “Right Stuff”. Look closely at the “Right Stuff” package I posted. You don’t need to work fast if you purchase the 90 minute “The Right Stuff”. Jim Patrick


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i will also get this.....thank you

[John Codman]

Steve. Take a look at the engine drawing in my above post and below. Unless the Model T era diagram is wrong, the pipe going from the bottom of the radiator to the engine block is listed as the “outlet pipe”. The inlet pipe goes from the head to the radiator. No big deal but I just wanted to let you know in case it matters to someone else. I suppose It only matters if we are attempting to give advice to someone. Jim Patrick


DFFBA326-D815-48BB-B43E-DCEA9FF949AE.jpeg

Outlet from the radiator - inlet to the radiator.

[Steve Jelf]

Since we're recommending sealants, I'll post this one.

Stephen Heatherly told me about it last year. He said it put a full stop to his rear axle leaks, so I'm using it when I install new seals. So far it's working for me.

[lirogo27]

Since we're recommending sealants, I'll post this one.


IMG_0406 copy.JPG
Stephen Heatherly told me about it last year. He said it put a full stop to his rear axle leaks, so I'm using it when I install new seals. So far it's working for me.

thx!!!!!