26 27 front spring loose

[70boss2wv]

The front spring on my 27 T is loose. So loose that effects the steering.
I know the motor mount is the correct year, as it has the boss for the front apron, but I'm wondering if it is for a TT, or if the spring is correct for my car? (It's a roadster pickup). With the motor out, and the weight of the frame and body on the wheels, I can easy move the spring around in it's perch. Any advice on how to proceed would be most appricated.
Here are some pics.

FrontSpringRight.JPG (58.23 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

FrontSpingLeft.JPG (61.32 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

FrontAxleMount.JPG (37.66 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

[70boss2wv]

Here's a rotated picture

FrontSpingLeft.JPG (54.83 KiB) Viewed 3534 times

of the left side of the spring.

[TWrenn]

Front springs are the same for a TT as well as runabout and all others.
Check your shackles for wear, the bushings of the same, the perches themselves, even your spindle bushings and go so far as to check for wear of the top and bottom parts of the "yokes". You may find your steering issues are far more in depth than you think.

[TXGOAT2]

The top two leaves of the front spring are very short. One or both may have broken at the tie bolt and fallen out. They are so short that the crossmember hides them, so it may not be readily apparent if one or two are missing. I used to find broken ones out in pastures where "oil camps" used to be. Another possible issue might be that the spring pad between the top of the spring and the frame crossmember is missing. Broken crossmembers are not uncommon. That spring appears to be heavily rusted. You need to find out exactly what's wrong before driving the car any more. If the nuts or the spring clamp threads are worn or stripped, they won't stay tight enough to secure the spring.

[TRDxB2]

The front spring on my 27 T is loose. So loose that effects the steering.
I know the motor mount is the correct year, as it has the boss for the front apron, but I'm wondering if it is for a TT, or if the spring is correct for my car? (It's a roadster pickup). With the motor out, and the weight of the frame and body on the wheels, I can easy move the spring around in it's perch. Any advice on how to proceed would be most appricated.
Here are some pics.
FrontSpringRight.JPG
FrontSpingLeft.JPG
FrontAxleMount.JPG

When you say " The front spring on my 27 T is loose. ....I can easy move the spring around in it's perch." sounds like its in the shackles as opposed to the front spring clip. But the dust on the spring leaves would suggest lack of motion in them. Best to do as suggested and check for a broken leaf (Lang's has TT springs as 9 leaves and '26-'27 as eight). Also check your spring bolt and its hole in the cross member

[70boss2wv]

Thanks all for the quick Reponses.


I should have said: I have rebuild everything, including the front axle, and all the bushings. Literally the only un-bolt-able thing I didn't touch was this spring. Now with the motor out I'm planning on rebuilding the spring. It's not as rusty as it appears. I'll take a video and post a link to u-tube, so you all can see where the movement is.
Before I put too much effort into this spring, I was wanting to determine if it is correct for my car. That is to say: Size first, and then appearance.
I've been looking through some old postings to try to determine if the spring is correct for my car. Can anyone comment on that, based on the shape of the ends of the leaves?
Also, what is the width of the spring supposed to be?, and
Does the motor mount/spring mount appear to be the correct one for my car?

Not to worry: diving isn't an issue, as the motor is out for some major servicing.

Thanks again.

[TXGOAT2]

That spring appears to have had a long, hard life, and it shows evidence of having been rebuilt before. Probably long before. I'd consider replacing it. The crossmember needs to be in good condition and tightly rivited to the frame side rails.

***** Important: Note that if the engine and oil pan are out of the car, there is nothing to hold and locate the front radius rods securely in place, and that will allow the axle to shift somewhat, since only the flexible spring is holding it in alignment. That's true even if the spring is tightly clamped to the frame crossmember.

The same is true of the rear axle and spring assembly. The attachment of the driveshaft to the transmission holds the rear axle in alignment ***

[jsaylor]

The spring should have a square head center bolt. That square head fits in the square hole in the cross member. That should keep the springs from moving from side to side.

[JTT3]

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[DHort]

Why do you have some leaves that are squared off? Was this spring put together from a pile of leaves?

[TRDxB2]

The front spring width is 1-1/2" and it appears to be correct width. An improper length would not make it feel loose, nor the number of leaves. The center bolt clamps the springs together and is intended to center the springs in the cross member & prevent sliding. The front spring clip also keeps the spring in the cross member and prevents sliding. You can expect some side to side movement of the spring in the shackle (1) but "you" shouldn't be able to cause any movement in the cross member (2). While riding the spring would flex about the sides of thefront spring clip which appears to be properly tightened in the photo. As noted with the engine out the weight of the car resting on the tires your pulling will cause some movement. The springs leaves look pretty much rusted together unless that's road dust. If rust you should clean them up, many videos & past links on how to.

[JTT3]

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[70boss2wv]

Here is a link to a video that shows "me" moving it.

https://youtu.be/bM5P6PQOL9o

[70boss2wv]

One other clarification:

I didn't install the spring. It was the one thing I left as it was. I have no information on the history. I was wondering if the shape of the leaves tells us anything about it's origins?
So, the question is how is it to be installed, Do I have the right parts to install it, and and how much movement is ok?
thanks all for your responses.

[TXGOAT2]

The movement shown in the video is a normal result of the radius rods not being secured to the oil pan. It is normal, or close to it. A new spring would do the same thing under the same circumstances. When the engine is again mounted in the car, the axles will be stabilized. All that aside, your spring looks pretty beat up, and is likely "flat", such that it will not support the car at the proper ride height. You can tell more about that when the car is assembled and running, and deal with it then, if necessary.

[JTT3]

…………………… ………

[John kuehn]

I looked at you video and with the engine out of the car it looks to me the front cross member
has been ‘spread out’ from years of use and the spring itself has been spreading out the cross member.
Even though it’s bolted in the cross member by the front motor mount it’s moving side to side to much. The spring should be a fairly tight fit when it’s up inside the cross member. That’s my opinion and others will have theirs.
When I restored my cars I tried to close up the cross member just enough that the spring was a fairly tight fit.
Of course Model T’s don’t have the most secure and tight front ends but it’s always best to get them ‘stiff’ enough by replacing all the bushings and tightening up the connection points.

‘

[TXGOAT2]

The axle assembly will not be stable unless the engine is mounted in the frame and the radius rod ball is attached to the oil pan. The crossmember flanges are not intended to clamp against the sides of the spring.

[TRDxB2]

Agree with the above three responses:
On watching the video you can see a small amount of movement of the spring in the cross member for a very exaggerated movement at the end of the wishbone. If the wishbone was connected to the pan I doubt if anything would move. The steering issue may have a different cause. What does the wishbone ball look like when fitted into the pan's ball socket?

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Also the Model T 3 point suspension is designed to flex somewhat

1916-Ford-Model-T-Flex-Frame-4-300x300.jpg (45.93 KiB) Viewed 3179 times

[70boss2wv]

Here's a pic straight on.

FrontEnd.JPG (50.94 KiB) Viewed 3138 times

[John kuehn]

The front spring is not supposed to “float “ inside the front cross member but be secure enough not to move but very little if any sideways. The movement shown in the video is to much. It should be just a bit more than a slip fit in side the cross member. The wishbone balls can get worn along with the ball connection point under the engine pan. Even with the two bolts pulled up tight that connection can really get wallowed out.
There are ball cap shims that can be purchased from the vendors that help with the excess looseness inside those joints.
One loose place eventually leads to another. The whole front end stableness depends upon the wishbone ball joint under the engine and that point has to be secure.

When I put the rebuilt engine in my 21 Touring I had already found a better wishbone at a Swap meet and used it. That helped some in getting the ball secure but Ididnt notice the excessive wear on the engine pan connection point. I used the shim kit that really helped in getting it secure. What I should have done is to use a better pan but didn’t notice the pan connection was worn before I rebuilt it.

[Scott_Conger]

I do see movement, and it is occurring with little mechanical/input effort...the spring itself is twisting inside the crossmember

a. the crossmember is very slightly opened up
b. the yoke nuts are not run up enough to tighten the yoke's base plate against the spring itself

possibly c. the spring pad has decomposed and fallen out allowing excess clearance
possibly d. there is a spring leaf missing allowing excess clearance

in any event, there is a washer under the castle nut that does not belong there, perhaps to attempt to tighten the spring. I would be inclined to drop the spring and inspect for obvious defects, leaf count, existence of pad, correct any/all faults found and then run the nuts up until things are tight...there will be a marked difference the next time you "shake" the axle

[70boss2wv]

I think Scott has summed it up nicely.
Thanks all for your input on this problem.

[70boss2wv]

So, I dropped the spring out.
This is what I found.
There is no pad.
The hole in the frame is whallered out quite a bit.
There are 9 leafs in my spring.
The washers were there because the nuts were up to the end of the threads.
So, I'm still not sure if I have a usable spring mount.

So looks like I need a "new" spring with 7 leaves.
weld in some material to close up the hole in the frame,
And add a pad.

Does anyone know the height of the spring at the center (where the bolt is)?
That is to say the total thickness of all seven leaves?

[70boss2wv]

Sorry,
Here are the pictures:

It's hard to see, but there is 9th leaf on the top. It's kinda in a shaddow.

[John kuehn]

The spring mount bolts can definitely be stretched over time from over tightening when the front end starts getting loose. The older T’s up until about 22 used a four bolt set up instead of the later 2 bolt version. I have 2 of the older T’s and I can tell you that when searching for the earlier version 4 bolt mount finding one that’s not really overstretched isn’t that easy.
And when you find them on repurposed T frames made into a farm trailer they really have a stack of washers to take up the slack!

The bolt hole in the front cross member does show how much the spring was moving back and forth over time. It’s close to being rounded out. It shouldn’t be that much.
Take a look at the earlier posted pic of a nice cross member and you can see the bolt hole is pretty much square.

One more thing to look at is the front cross member may have been replaced. To me it looks like it’s bolted on instead of the original way of riveting it on. All Ford T frames were riveted together at all points. It wasn’t uncommon to replace worn out cross members by bolting them in and you can see some that way today.
If it’s bolted in your T has seen lots if use since it was a pickup.

[TXGOAT2]

If the crossmember is bolted in, I'd consider replacing it. Riviting is best. It may require oversize rivits to get a good tight fit in the frame holes. That spring has been around the block a time or two. I'd consider retiring it.

[70boss2wv]

Thanks for the follow up.
The cross member is actually riveted in. It's just the corner angle piece that is bolted in.

[TXGOAT2]

The front frame crossmember is highly stressed. If it is rusted, or worn thin on the underside from running with the spring loose, I'd replace it. The front motor mount should clamp the spring tightly to the underside of the front frame crossmember, not to the sides of it. The nuts should not bottom on the threads when the spring is tight. The front axle assembly will not be completely stable until the oil pan is in place and the radius rod ball attached to it.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I'm thinking that the hole in the cross member may not be so much worn that way, but instead, purposely opened up to allow the head of the wrong type of bolt to pass through. Be aware that the correct spring bolt has a fairly small, square head. Can't tell what yours has.

[jab35]

Leonard: What is 'sitting' on top of the spring? It looks like a piece of square stock steel, maybe added to the spring pack to serve as a shim, with the spring and that 'shim' all held together with a carriage bolt??? At least that is what I think I'm seeing. As others have stated, no shim is used, just a thin pad between the top leaf and the frame. With the correct spring and spring clamp/motor mount, no washers are needed on the clamp bolts. Best, jb

[Scott_Conger]

It looks to be a 9 leaf, Ton Truck front spring. The spring clamp may be from TT as well. As for the bolt, blowing the picture up makes it look like a square head bolt.

It is all moot, if the spring doesn't go back in (and I don't believe it should, frankly)...at least I would not put it back in.