Old Style Coils VS New Style Coils

[J1MGOLDEN]

Should new Before 1912 coils produce as hot a spark as the After 1912 New Coils.

I am helping a friend get his 1912 running better and the spark is very weak.

The col box is in an excellent original condition and the coils were all new a few years ago.

They all have a different block letter on them that seems to have no meaning either!

The timer appears to be good and there does not seem to be any reason for the weak spark.

I have six coil testers of different types and those coils will not fit in any of them to test them one at a time.

[Norman Kling]

How will they spark on a 12 volt battery? If your magneto is weak, you won't get good spark. Do you have a hand cranked coil tester? The coils must be adjusted to draw 1.5 amps and to make a good hot spark. Look up the posts of how to adjust the coils or get the booklet from the club "Electrical System" it gives detailed instructions on how to adjust the coils. The capacitor in the coil must be in good condition. The original ones are not usually good. Modern replacement capacitors can be installed in the coils. The booklet describes how to do that as well. Or you can send them out to be rebuilt.
Norm

[Moxie26]

Coils that were manufactured and used prior to the 1914 introduction of the KW ignition coil we're different.... Different in size, terminal positions, point mounting and function, capacitors, and potting substances.... The hand crank coil testers we're available after the 1914 change to KW style coils. .. all ignition coil specs are available from the Model T Ford Club of America website, sorry I can't provide that information while driving.

[Scott_Conger]

Jim, the simple answer to your question

Should new Before 1912 coils produce as hot a spark as the After 1912 New Coils

is "yes, they should"

[J1MGOLDEN]

Norman, I have four HCCTs and those coils don't work in them at all, due to the size difference.

My latest restoration.

[Norman Kling]

I haven't tried it, but it looks like it would be easy to make a box to insert the coils you have and connect to the tester. maybe someone on the forum can help you. You might try Ron Patterson.
Norm

[Moxie26]

Norm and James . . I happen to have a connector that I believe will match up with a Heinz coil, all you need is to match the coil against the connector and attach wires to your tester and you're welcome to it. Just email me and I'll send it out to you.

[Moxie26]

Come to think of it, the ECCT SYSTEM can be connected to the earlier coils such as the Heinz (sp?) coil for more perfect results. If interested I would suggest you get a hold of Mike Kossor, in Kenilworth New Jersey , the inventor of the ECCT.

[J1MGOLDEN]

Robert, you have a good point!

I have the complete ECCT setup with the computer program and I was going to send Mike a note and ask if that box he sells would accept the old style coil.

Right now I have that complete set and the coils are 55 miles away.

I also did some of his early Beta tests for him!

[Moxie26]

Mike is very helpful and can take you through step by step with the Heinze coils... You're welcome to the coil box adapter I have, just send me your mailing information.

[J1MGOLDEN]

Scot, thanks for that tip!

The new coil points are set at about .035 and that leaves me wondering if the points on the old coils should have the same size gap, if the coil insides are the same.

Then too, if the points are too close together, it might reduce the input voltage and consequently the output voltage.

[Moxie26]

Looking at this adapter, I don't believe it will correspond with the coil box contacts on a Heinze coil. This adapter was for the what I would call the early first series KW coil. That early KW had terminals spaced differently than the KW standard that came out a few months later. ,....... I am certain that Mike Kossor will be helpful with your Heinz coil calibrations

[MKossor]

Here is more information on Heinze coils and Heinze coil tuning :

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26730

Could be the capacitor is bad or the wrong value. An adapter can be made to test Heinze coils using the ECCT but the test limits will be different. That's why the reason the Heinze Edition ECCT was made. Engine performance reported by Heinze coils users tuned on the ECCT have been excellent. The Heinze coil is really an excellent design.

Unfortunately, Henze coils Cannot be properly adjusted on the HCCT by measuring average coil Current, they will almost always exhibit double sparking. Attempts to prevent double sparking will assure improper adjustment. Heinze coils MUST tuned for equal dwell time to fire spark by actually measuring dwell time to fire spark.

[Wayne Sheldon]

It should be simple enough to make an adapter box to hold, test, and adjust the early coils on an HCCT or even one of the modern electronic test/adjusters. Leftover wooden pieces from coils beyond repair (anybody here have less than a half a dozen of those?) To make the dummy box and connections to fit into the HCCT's. A simple box made of scrap wood pieces to make a test cradle for the odd coil. Be careful with the wiring! Significant spacing MUST be maintained between the low and high voltage wires! And some spacing and fairly short wires should be for the primary and secondary wires.
Wires too long or too close together, especially the high voltage wire, might result in corrupted readings and incorrect adjustments.

Given the numerous variations of early coil boxes? One adapter will not be a "fits all". It might be possible to make an adjustable adapter box that could fit most early coils. That I don't know for certain.

Jim, the simple answer to your question

Should new Before 1912 coils produce as hot a spark as the After 1912 New Coils

is "yes, they should"

I may have to disagree with you on this. It might depend on just what "new" coil is involved? Some rebuilt original early style coils may not be able to produce as strong a spark? It would depend upon the windings in the coils inside.
If these coils in question are truly new or rebuilt originals, there still may be some variation in the internal windings to affect the strength of the spark.
And of course the best most appropriate capacitor for these coils should be used. I don't know what the current status is for those?

I understand that a few people have in recent years built "new" coils to fit in the original early wooden coil boxes. Many of these used the later KW actual coil parts fit inside new boxes. With minor rearrangement, new appropriate capacitors could be fit inside, and that should result in nearly identical hot spark!
However, many coils manufactured after World War Two used substandard coils (the actual wire-wound coils inside, not the general unit?) inside the boxes. Many of these coils when new could not produce a truly hot spark! Both wooden and plastic boxed coils have been made this way. I have a couple of each.

If Jim Golden knows who made or rebuilt the coils? He should probably try to find out what is inside?

[Scott_Conger]

However, many coils manufactured after World War Two used substandard coils (the actual wire-wound coils inside, not the general unit?) inside the boxes. Many of these coils when new could not produce a truly hot spark! Both wooden and plastic boxed coils have been made this way. I have a couple of each.

My answer of "yes" to Jim's question

Should new Before 1912 coils produce as hot a spark as the After 1912 New Coils

is in no way negated by the above mention of inferior or substandard units produced subsequently. The fact remains, that original early coils were capable of generating hot sparks, and so should replacement/reproductions. A new coil which generates weak sparks is either defective or incorrectly adjusted (or both). The fact that a new or reproduction unit may not give strong sparks does not mean that they should not give strong sparks.

[Wayne Sheldon]

That is quite true Scott C, they "should" give a good hot spark!

I always enjoy your posts and explanations. Your explanations are among the best on this site or any other I know of.

You have a fine way of explaining many things in ways that non-engineers can understand. I have known many people that understood things most people could never even begin to understand, but they couldn't explain how to build a turkey sandwich!

Your ability to both understand AND communicate is enviable!

Also hence why I said "may" have to disagree?

[Been Here Before]

It still amazes me as to how much promotion is given to the use of a HCCT for suggesting a properly adjusted coil.

The HCCT did not make an appearance until circa 1912, Ford did not begin producing a HCCT until circa 1919. My gosh, how on earth did folks with trembler coils in their ignition manage to start their motors?

Most instructions (1906 - forward) state that a coil with six or eight volts - dry cells- should draw no more than 1.5 amps. Of course, if a coil was designed to operate on a voltage greater than six volts would draw more current.

Why the 1.5 amp current suggestion, any draw greater would put a strain on the batteries and they would drain or go flat faster.

It wasn't until Huff gave Henry the ac generator in the form of the magneto that there was no need to worry about battery drain.

Funny thing, even with the HCCT, it is suggested that the coil be set to draw 1.5 amps.

[Scott_Conger]

Wayne...

George...

[Moxie26]

HCCT specifications strongly suggested 1.3 amp draw since 1919. ....a value of 1.3 amp was actually an average obtained on the HCCT.... along with single sparking after cushion spring calibration.

[RGould1910]

Here's an old post by the late R.V. Anderson that bears on this discussion.

The major reason that folks have trouble with the early coils is that they fail to realize that they are unique and their individual qualities allowed and provided for in their rebuilding and their operation. They were made by completely different companies and covered under their different patents, although their operation was/is similar. It's a little like trying to set a Ford carburetor with a Chevy manual, so when I am contacted by someone experiencing frustration with them who says I set them up for the 1.3 amps but can't a good spark from them, I try to explain that the procedure to be followed when setting up the later coils of the Ford/K-W design is not to be used with the Heinze, Kingston, and Jacobson-Brandow coils. Each is a unique animal.

To begin with, it should be understood that Ford didn't sell the first 600,000 or so cars with a defective ignition. They ran on these coils when they were new and they can and do run on them today, although they run their best with a modification that I will explain shortly. The most common problem by far, besides the sputzed original condensers common with early as well as with late coils, is an open secondary. These coil windings used silk as an insulator. Not the best choice in my opinion, for a high-voltage application; shorts soon developed and eventually the winding went completely open; a deathbed situation, for, while they would often continue to spark if the open was close to the contact, the wire would burn up like the electrode in an arc welder and eventually the gap would get too wide for the spark to bridge and that was that. This is the situation in about 85% of the early coils that I get in for rebuilding.

The early primaries, on the the other hand, since they experienced relatively low voltage, had their silk insulators continue to be effective and they almost always remain like new today, electrically speaking. Hence, the modification: I have had a number of new high-tension windings custom-made to fit these larger-diameter original primaries, and, by utilizing the original primaries in conjunction with original-type points, they will work like new and can be set and adjusted in the same manner as intended by their manufacturers.

Heinze coils, for example, should have the vibrator tension set to draw between 0.6 and 0.8 amps; the early (high-bridge) Kingstons, about 0.7-0.8, and the later low- bridge type used in later 1911-early 12, about 0.85-1.0 amps. The Jacobson-Brandow Company recommended that their coils be set to draw 0.2 amps.

The fact that these early units do not utilize the K-W riveted spring is often seen as a defect. However, the situations analyzed so well by Ron and Trent in The Vintage Ford article that Ron cites, were in fact recognized by these early manufacturers. They went about solving them individually by equipping their coils with unique points in their efforts to improve their product and obtain a selling point. Each of the 4 major ignition suppliers to Ford attempted to eliminate contact rebound and duration in some manner.

(Williams patent contention that it was the extension of the primary winding to nearly the full length of the core that made his coil superior is somewhat absurd, I feel, because in my observation, every one of the 4 other suppliers did exactly the same thing, and every original primary winding that I have removed has been wound this way.)

It was probably the Jacobson-Brandow company's armature assembly that came closest to realizing the full potential of the principle, which Williams eventually did: by allowing the contact a sort of restricted (by the rivet) floating, rebound and duration issues were both addressed. The major difference is that all of the early units had their floating contact on the armature rather than the bridge, which was/is required for superior operation. But that doesn't mean there is something wrong with the early units any more than something is wrong with the T engine, as compared with modern power plants.

[Been Here Before]

To add to the comment from RGould1910 » Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:37 pm

Attached is a 1906 article about coil adjustment from the manufactures of the period, to include Leon Rubay, importer of french trembler or vibrator coils, Dow Portable Electric Company, Dayton Electrical Manufacturing, Connecticut Telephone and Electric, and Pittsfield Spark Coil Company.

Each with suggestions on adjusting the coils, with a common statement - do not adjust by sound or buzz.

[BE_ZERO_BE]

I made this remote coil adapter for my HCCT.
Now I can make any form of coil fixture and connect to the coil.
I then use the HCCT to test and adjust the parameters of the coil.
 

[KWTownsend]

Bob, I made one if those, too!

I also made an adapter for Heinze coils for the HCCT.

: ^ )

Keith

[KWTownsend]

Jim,
Regarding coil letters, the following was written by RV Anderson:

The letters aren't quite random. The following is an excerpt from an article I'm working on:

"It appears that, of all the different coils that Heinze built, only those built for the Model T have the letters. The first time they appeared was in 1911. Since the coils built for the T had no contact spikes on the bottom (like the Heinze coils used on the Model S) that held the coil in place in the box, an attempt was made to help keep the coils from bouncing around by using a mortise and tenon style joint between pairs of coils. To allow for the joint, the coils were made with one thick side. Two of the coils had the mortise and two had the tenon. They were installed in pairs this way, with their thick sides adjacent. These coils were stencilled with an "M" for the tenon coils and and "F" for those with the mortise. It has been surmised that these letters stood for "male" and "female." This may or may not be correct but I've not seen anything that definitely refutes it.

A bit later on in 1911, the joints was eliminated and the coil box lid was made with a couple of wood strips that bore on the coils' metal tops to keep them in place. The coils' one thick side was retained, however. These later coils with the thick side but no joint were stencilled "L" and "R" (probably for 'left' and 'right') and continued to be installed in pairs. A bit later yet, the stencils changed to "Y" and "Z" and these coils, still with a thick side and still installed in pairs, were continued into very early 1912. The exact significance of the Y and Z is unknown but one theory holds that since there was a very large Greek immigrant populace at the time in Lowell, MA, and no doubt many of them worked at the Heinze factory, the new letters may have guided Greek assemblers who didn't read or write English. There could be something to this theory since many Greek names do in fact begin with a Y or a Z.

As the thick-side coils were used up and that construction was no longer needed, the simpler unit with uniform-thickness sides appeared. These coils were installed individually and not in pairs. The first of these was marked with a large upper case "I". Again, exact significance unknown but this letter marks the "typical" 1912 coil. At some later point, the style of the letter changed and, while still an upper-case "I", it was much shorter and wider. At about the same time, there was a change in the arrangement of the ratchet and the nut post on the top of the coil. Still later, late in the 1912 model year, there was a change in the points. They were now made of a single piece of spring steel and are generally referred to by Model T people as the "1913" style. These coils' stencil was a large upper case "K".

Late in 1913 Ford standardized its coils and for a time, Heinze supplied coils and (metal) boxes to conform to the new design. These coils were markedly different from the wood-box units. Not a single part except for the four brass wood screws that secured the metal tops was the same. Even the contacts were in different locations so they could be used in the new Ford metal coilboxes. These coils were stencilled with the letter "O". Some of this type coil were not stenciled but had a large, diamond-shaped ink stamp on the side. This stamp contained the Heinze name along with the month and year the coil unit was built."

copyright 2012 by R.V. Anderson

Whereas 1914-1927 KW type coils are set to draw about 1.3 amps, I believe the early Heinze coils were set to draw about 1.0 amp.

: ^ )

Keith

[J1MGOLDEN]

Bob, I just sent Mike a note to confirm your thoughts.

The only ECCT close by does not let those coils set in it.

[Moxie26]

Progress in motion thanks

[MKossor]

FYI, Luke Chennell of Midnight Coil Repair now tests, rebuilds, and tunes Heinze coils using the Heinze Edition ECCT. Contact Luke here: https://www.facebook.com/MidnightCoilRepair/

[Moxie26]

Mike, that is good news for Jim and all Heinze owners !

[Been Here Before]

Not to forget the work of Trent Boggess and Ronald Patterson, Parts 1,2,3: Three-part Series
The Model T Ignition Coil

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_D ... System.pdf

[Moxie26]

George thanks for posting those three articles on historical ignition coil building. They did appear in the Vintage Ford magazines.