Foreign health care?

[Steve Jelf]

In most developed countries health care is a government public service, like roads, mail delivery, police and fire, etc. In the USA government pays health care costs partially for old people and fully for some veterans. Everybody else has to buy health insurance or pay directly.

Whenever there's a discussion of what is or would be the best system for us, part of the argument is over what a different system "would do", and how it "would be" better or worse for us than what we have now. Rather than decide the question based on speculation, I think actual experience is a better guide.

So if you live in another country, what's your experience? Is your health system a good one? Do you wish your country had the American system? Is there something that would be better than either?

[A Whiteman]

So if you live in another country, what's your experience? - very good, wide cover and high standard. Only partially covers dental.

Is your health system a good one? yes, always something to complain about, but overall is very good.

Do you wish your country had the American system? "No way Jose..." The cost it puts on my daughter and her family in the US is unbelievable (to me any way). And I am not sure the service provided in Texas is actually any better than we have here, maybe worse in some ways..

We do have private options as well, and private medical insurance is available. The advantage can be a shorter waiting time and private rooms in hospital (if needed), but no real difference as to treatment and standard of care

[Scott_Conger]

Steve

I will make one correction to your list when you say

Everybody else has to buy health insurance or pay directly.

This is absolutely not true...the majority of people here pay little to nothing for health care or health care insurance in the US. The only people who pay are poor schlubs who are still so naïve that they think they have to work a good job for a living. Our government insurance program costs are 100% geared toward your income. The key to this is knowing "what is income?". Income is either what you earn, or what you withdraw from your pension or tax-deferred savings. Regardless of what many people think, it is NOT all monies that flow across your palm.

From the layman's view, if it seems like "everyone" is paying a ton for it, well, that's because they must work and know only people who do, too. It used to be the thing to do, but it isn't encouraged so much these days.

If you are (for instance) retired and planned ahead to have savings, the money you draw from savings to live is not income, even if you have a million in the stock market and live in a 10,000 sq/ft home you can still be "poor" and receive fat subsidies. It is an insane system that (severely) penalizes hard work and rewards sloth or those who took great pains to plan their early retirement. I am in the latter group. By managing my actual income to a particular level and then augmenting my cash flow with savings, I have successfully transferred 100% of my costs to my fellow citizens. It is a lousy, unfair system, but I did not design it, vote for it, or willingly accept the institution of it...I only follow its rules once I figured them out...and let me tell you it is a well-kept widely known secret that took me the last two years of my working life to figure out. Once I figured it out, I resigned my job as an engineer and joined the ranks of "the poor". I've never been so well off since making that decision. I look at it this way: had I kept working, I very likely would have strangled one or two folks who richly deserved it, and would have ended up getting free health-care PLUS room and board. The way I see it, I am saving society a ton of money by retiring early and only taking the free healthcare, so it almost borders on Patriotic, I think.

When slightly more than 40% of voters pay no income tax, but still vote, then it takes very few extra voters to bring about this sort of system you end up with. In the old days, you got a free bottle of cheap hooch to vote a particular way; this time you got free healthcare. I felt it was an abomination and voted for the other guy, but my guy lost and like I said, I follow the rules and to show my appreciation to everyone else footing my bill, I say "thank you".

[TXGOAT2]

"Free" stuff is never free.
It is underwritten by the heavy taxation of thrift, hard work, and healthy living.
Free stuff rewards low-class politicians and their assorted toadies, the beguiled, who believe the dreamweavers and soothsayers, and the downright ignorant who vote for them without any idea of why they do so.

[Norman Kling]

I don't want government deciding that I am too old for certain healthcare. Say, for instance, I have a heart condition and need surgery or a heart transplant (which I don't have) but if I did, the government might ration the health care according to average life expectancy and since I am old they might decide instead to, "put me to sleep". Or if a baby is born with a defect, just let it die. With private health care, at least we and our doctors have a choice in such things.
Norm

[fschrope]

I think Stan Howe (RIP) made a good observation - If you think Canadian Health Care is so good, why are there so many Canadian licensed cars in the Great Falls Hospital parking lot.

[A Whiteman]

"Free" stuff is never free.
It is underwritten by the xxxxxx taxation of thrift, hard work, and healthy living.

As are the Police, fire, motorways, .....

[TXGOAT2]

Motorways are financed primarily by fuel taxes.

[Kaiser]

Every insurance system is based on the solidarity principle, i.e. we all pay a little sum annually so that if some of us get unlucky and have a bad thing happen to us, we get compensation without ruining us financially.
In the ideal world the large amount of money that is needed for such a system is held by a third party that has a 'not for profit' base.
In the real world however these funds are in the hands of commercial parties who are in it for profit, and that is where the problems start.
I do not deny my doctor to have a decent income, but i don't want the CEO of my insurance company to build a collection of Maseratis from my health insurance and at the same time questioning the need for expensive medication for the grandkid.
For the people who have enough funds there is never a problem, but for the people without deep pockets, good health insurance is very important, mostly these are the people who have the less glamorous jobs with big effects on their health who cannot cough up the big cost of an expensive operation or long term medication for some ailment they did not ask for.
Every system we can think up has its drawbacks, but i personally think that health care should be considered as a community service, like public transport, clean drinking water and decent roads.
We had that system in the Netherlands up till about 25 years ago, but changed it to a health care system in commercial hands and it was promised to be better and cheaper for all of us, well...
25 years later and we have endless waiting list and constantly rising costs for insurance, now you figure out what was a better system for the 'common man' !
End of rant

[tdump]

Well it is my understanding that some of these free health care country's will just cut the arm off instead of saving it since it is cheaper.Or you have to wait 2 years to see a specialist.
I had 80-20 health coverage until a certain new system was implemented by a previous president.Now it is 70-30 with much higher deductibles.
We had a good system up until then. If you wanted insurance,you went to work and it was a benefit of the job.
Even with it's quirks I still think we are somewhat better off as far as type of care we can get.
I do not approve of being a certain age and not get certain things though. my dad has Barret's esophagus and would get a tube down the throat to check it every so often,until he reached 82 and suddenly the dr said you won't get any more unless you show symptoms of a problem. Gee how nice.

[TXGOAT2]

Generally speaking, government is more corrupt than the private sector, and far more difficult to avoid or to reform. Government makes your choices for you, and forces you to pay, up front. Wal Mart, GM, et al, cannot do that.

You may be certain that you qualify to make forced payments to government.
It's not at all certain that you will be deemed qualified to ever collect any benefit.

[A Whiteman]

Well it is my understanding that

Fair enough, I can understand that. I can only base my view on what I experience actually living in such environments with "Free" heath care (three different countries with various "Free" systems). What I (and my family) have experienced is, thankfully, not like the situation you describe.

Every system we can think up has its drawbacks, but i personally think that health care should be considered as a community service, like public transport, clean drinking water and decent roads.

'TWO THUMBS UP'

I will concede that each system is different, just like each private insurance policy is different and covers or exclude different things. Some 'Free" systems really may be poor, as others are really good. Thankfully our 'Free" care here does not exclude you from care depending on whether you have a job or what age you are.

(Not everyone without a job is in that position by choice or desire...)

[fschrope]

I don't think "health care" is in the same boat as police, fire, mail, roads etc.
It is hard to abuse or game the latter, but we have folks that play the system of "health care" all the time.

I know of a woman who gets up every morning and tries to find something wrong with her so she can go the the doctor or ER. She is on medicare.

Here in town, there was a person on medicaid that called 911 and got a free ride to the hospital emergency room for a headache. Another for sunburn.

That ambulance costs $960 plus $10/mile. They love it as it is easy work and the government pays for it.

To show how the system has gotten worse, 40 plus years ago, I got hit by a train. I was in the hospital for a week and out of work for over a month. I was a self employed trucker. I had my own truck, permits and insurance and was running under my SubS corp name. My wife was a school teacher and the family was insured through her school insurance. I can't remember what insurance company covered us, but it was one of the big ones. They paid almost all of my hospital bills - no questions asked. I never gave it a thought. Years later - maybe 10 or 20 - I realized that they shouldn't have paid a dime as I was employed by my corporation. If they hadn't paid, it would have bankrupt us.
Another example - in November 1974, our daughter had to have open heart surgery for a birth defect. Again, they paid for it. I'm sure we paid a little, but not much.

So, where am I leading - do you think any insurance company would pay for these things today. Heck no, they are trying to find ways to get out of paying.

[TXGOAT2]

Government can always be relied upon to COLLECT.
Payouts are uncertain, at best, and usually carry a suite of "deducts".

[Craig Leach]

I'm thinking you all have it wrong. Come to america, don't speak the language, Work for cash or get welfare, drive with no license or insurance,
pay no taxes, go to the hospital, get treated, walk out the door and never look back. The people with insurance will be billed for it. That's why
health care is so expensive. & That's why so many cars in the hospital parking lot have expiered plates here. FREE HEALTH CARE And to top it off
the kid you had in the hospital is now a US citizen. "America what a country"
Sorry I thought everyone was sitting on the fence to much.
Craig.

[JessieJim1]

You live in your fictional world where everyone is equal. Not everything is so perfect.

[TXGOAT2]

It's all FREE! WHEEEEE!

(Ignore those income taxes, including FIT and "Social Security", and the wealth taxes, also known as "inflation", "property tax", etc.)

Medicare, Medicaid?

All FREE!! NO COST TO YOU***!!!!

Waddacountry!!!

[George Mills]

Steve,

Here is where I probably get in trouble...but since you asked...

There is a company in mainland China that I am quite familiar with and have to say that their version of socialized medicine works...for them.

The company is very large and has its own clinic staffed with an MD and two Nurses. The clinic is at the front entrance to the factory compound and open to employees as front of the line for personal issues, their family members on a first come first served basis daily. No cost to the employee or his family. Very similar to what our General Practioners do today. Colds, sniffles, bruises and sores, broad spectrum antibiotics, stitches. The MD cell phone number is given to all employees and she keeps prescription level cold stuff and fever breakers at her house in the company housing unit and you can call any time at night and weekends.

You need more? One of the nurses will take you to the local hospital as your personal representative and advocate. Such as X-rays, or bigger stuff. Basic bill is government subsidized at this level and pocket change to the employee. A senior guy had bronchitis bordering on pneumonia. Was taken to the hospital, where he was X-rayed and examined, hydrated with a saline solution, given an injection, and a script for (fee inclusive) pharmacy filling down in the lobby plus informed a nurse would make a house call 4 days later at a time of his convenience to judge recovery and once again administer a saline flush. He also said that he had some skin tags, could they get them done while there. (they sent him down the hall...skin tags all gone before leaving). Total cost? 65 Chinese ( about 10 bucks)

Now what about the big stuff? An employee had a daughter that turned up with leukemia. The company doctor took her and her Mom to Beijing at the leading center for childhood leukemia. The doctor negotiates a total FIXED price for the uncovered work. The Doctor signs a contract and returns to the company while treatment commences. There is now a bit of an internal 'go fund me' with MINIMUM expectations from each and every level of employee. It was fully subscribed! Then the irony...the entire wall by the front gate contained the list of who gave and how much! Never asked about the innuendo implied...but think it was pretty obvious. The affected employee is going to see it and I can only imagine he looks for missing names or large donations.

It is a system that works,,,that little girl did wind up in remission without a recurrence. I know...even I never trusted it and when in residence I always had private evacuation insurance with inclusive global health plan.

The further irony of the whole thing that to me turned out funny? There are American company investing in established Chinese manufacturing companies. One that I do know well went 50% and then 51% on its way to eventual full ownership. At 51%, the HR department from Lancaster OH decided to welcome everybody to the family and set up a health care plan that was just a copy of what they gave the Lancaster OH employees. The next Monday morning, NONE of the employees showed up for work! They had asked for a meeting with the local powers in an auditorium to discuss this outlandish healthcare scheme! The 50 page booklet that they had been given, translated well into Chinese, had scared the crap out of them, complete with the rationalization by them as a group that some how...some way...they were all going to lose out and get screwed...the govt winked, told them all was ok, and they went to work on Tuesday!

[TXGOAT2]

We're halfway there. Its time for Change! It's time for the New Deal II:
Let's set the income tax rate at 100% and make everything* free.

In NewAmerika, your qualifying needs, as determined by Experts, will be fully met at no direct cost to you, if you qualify according to current guidelines in effect at the time your claim is presented.

*Your Social Credits Account, or SCA, will be routinely evaluated periodically, as well as at any time that you or your Social Service Advocate, or SSA, present a claim for benefits. All assessments will be conducted by credentialed agents of the National Board of Certified Experts, or NBOCE, whose ruling or rulings will be final.

NBOCE assessments related to your SCA may affect your status an a Person Of Eligibility, or POE.
See the app or contact your SSA for details.