This was trucking-Old Photos

Poppie · Post by **Poppie** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:39 pm

Rich, I don't think the steel frame is part of the truck but could be a fire escape for the building. The piece of timber at the rear at cab height could be part of the rear frame to hold the load....n

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:14 am

Good observation Neil, thank you !

I'm posting the photo again for the new page. Anyone recognize the make ?

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:50 pm

The Golden Age of Trucking museum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f5UP4ncn7U

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:11 am

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:46 pm

Interesting how the "C-cab" profile was adapted to the tall van body. What's the make / year of the truck ? Thanks, Herb.

Here's a photo that looks like this Jeffery Quad may be in trouble ! Anyone know the year ?

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:53 pm

I have no doubt that the low geared Jeffery and Nash Quad four-wheel-drive and four-wheel-steer truck can back up and plow thru that drift. I've heard great stories about the YPC White trucks bucking such drifts back in the day. Much of it is the driver.
Great photo.
Rich

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:26 pm

Was the four-wheel steering truck chassis John found behind the stockyards years ago a Jeffrey ?

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:49 pm

That was a Nash Quad. Larry P. gave it to Joe and John and I helped break it loose from the ice and Joe took it home. He played with it until Bud C.'s father-in-law claimed it was one of two their family bought brand new. They restored it and drove it some until someone left water in it over the winter. Wham, Bang and out of commission. A lot of fun was had till then.

The rear steering shows here. "The Jeffery Quad (later Nash) was introduced in 1913 by Thomas B. Jeffery & Company."
By Golly, here are photos from the cold day we picked it up. 1969, Gem State trailer.

Part of the fun of being senile is finding stuff once in a while.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:16 pm

Thanks for that Rich, and the great pictures !

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:44 pm

While the restoration was a nice try, the truck was so inviting in the ambiance of Joe's old barn while it was rusty and charming. The smell of that era Liquid Wrench, oil and gas and dirt floor seemed warm and cozy. He did get it running and had his fun with it. I don't know why I find "before" much preferable to "after" many times. More magic moments.
Rich

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:17 pm

Was out in the country last week and drove by this truck frame sitting along the road. I couldn't

tell what it was but thought someone here might be able to identify it.
The differential is put in flat at the far end.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:06 pm

Great photos of an interesting chassis. I don't recognize it offhand. That rear end looks vaguely familiar.
Rich

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 1:13 pm

The rust and yellow paint reminds me of the Buck Rake I bought as parts for my YPC Bus. Several surplus Busses were sold and converted to Buck Rakes by traveling craftsmen near the Dillon, MT. A boom was made to lift from the rear and steering and seating was turned and moved back. The frame was shortened also.

The rear axle was flipped so gearing was right for moving that direction.

Several Big Buicks were converted this way as well in that area. It probably was during the depression.
I was happy to have the extra White parts available. My axle shafts were twisted when my bus was a wrecker. The radiator was comforting to have and I picked several other parts from it. It was a bargain for $200 in the '80s.

Rich

Post by **tdump** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:36 pm

Herb Iffrig wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:17 pm
Was out in the country last week and drove by this truck frame sitting along the road. I couldn'ttruck frame 1.JPGtruck frame 2.JPGtruck frame 3.JPGtruck frame 4.JPG tell what it was but thought someone here might be able to identify it.
The differential is put in flat at the far end.

The rear axle is different but the wheels and some other features are very similar to my Republic.But the front of the frame is straight unlike my truck, the yellow paint was a republic color to.I know I would love to have it ,would be easy enough to adapt my powertrain to it.

Post by **tdump** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:26 pm

I was fumbling thru the pictures on my cell telephone and found these,I thought I had posted them here but apparently not. This mans father ran a welding and mechanic shop.when the owner of this truck was a kid,his dad that ran the shop made him work the winch on the wrecker boom. This is not the truck it was on, he bought the truck from out of state,and made the body himself with junk left over from his dad's shop that was closed in the 80's.
The bed really had me fooled but the tread plate was from a tanker trailer .
I had took old Abe out for a spin 1 sunday morning while it was clear to get some parts at oreilys and Mr Liles had drove this down there for the same reason.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:30 pm

Puts me in mind of the great number of one-row spud diggers we used to see which utilized a model T rear end and drive shaft. Perhaps the Depression was the impetus for repurposing machinery past its prime, but I'll bet WW II shortages gave it a real boost. It had to be quite a cottage industry for hay-bucks and diggers too. Interestingly, quite a few were still being used up to the early '70s

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:47 pm

I believe this is one of those modified for a digger Rich mentioned. Good for internal parts.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:29 pm

Speaking of wreckers, this was the boom on my YPC Bus when I bought it. It was not included in the purchase.

It used a TT transmission driven by a Ford V8 transmission power takeoff behind the White trans. With both transmissions in compound, it drove at a snail's pace. The Wrecker was used a lot in West Y and the Park. It might have been nice to preserve it as a wrecker looking back. The Park may have converted it to rescue stranded buses back in the day.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:41 pm

I love to see those before pictures of the Whites, Rich. Your YP bus is a thing of beauty !

This photo of buses on 5th Ave. New York is dated 1913. I'm pretty sure the one on the left is a Packard, but what about the other one ?

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Wed Aug 09, 2023 7:06 pm

The bus at right is a 1913 Autobus De Dion Bouton I believe. The other bus radiator doesn't have sharp corners like most Packards. I'm not convinced but can't say what else it might be. Here is another '13 NY bus:

Thanks
Rich

Post by **JohnM** » Wed Aug 09, 2023 8:47 pm

The bus to the right appears to have the Daimler Benz logo on the front. A quick research showed they did make trucks at that time. But I am not that well read on European makes. I did learn the three point star symbolized, land, air, and sea. To produce engines for more than just automobiles.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:53 am

The one on the right is definitely a De Dion Bouton, they were a familiar sight in Paris from around 1910 right up to WW2, De Dion built all kinds of trucks with the same characteristic radiator, here's a restored Paris Omnibus :

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:57 am

And here is a French Army truck from the "Great" War of 14-18

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:28 am

Just out of curiosity, when did Mercedes-Benz adopt the three pointed star ? Perhaps they were inspired by the DeDion-Bouton ?

Post by **JohnM** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:24 am

From Wikipedia:
In June 1909, Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft (DMG) registered both a 3 pointed and 4 pointed star as trademarks. But only the 3 point star was used. To DMG, the star symbolized Gottlieb Daimler's aims for universal motorization: on land, water, and the air.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:50 am

Thanks for that John. I was under the impression it came much later. Good to know.

Post by **JohnM** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:59 pm

Rich, that was the initial registration of the three point star logo. I believe it had numerous modifications over the years. Sorry I didn't find any connection to DeDion Bouton.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:29 pm

John, if there were, I kinda doubt if Herr Benz would have acknowledged any "debt" to Messers. DeDion & Bouton !

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:35 am

De Dion Bouton was very big and on the forefront of technical innovation before and right after the turn of the century, they sold their engines to a lot of other manufacturers, even to the U.S.
Henry Champion, of sparkplug fame, was a professional bicycle racer in his youth in Paris and rode for De Dion among others before he immigrated to the U.S.
The star form of the De Dion grille is a support for the front bearing of the fan, a case of 'form follows function'

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Mon Aug 14, 2023 7:46 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:06 pm

I can't tell what it is, but it reminds me of this one.

Lots of folks enjoying the truck.
Rich

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:32 pm

How about a high cab truck.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:42 pm

That is a particularly high cab. Was that standard or a special modification. I can't remember ones like that.
I should recognize the chassis but don't today.
Rich

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:30 pm

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:38 am

The discussion of Benz and De Dion was interesting. It should be noted that in the earliest days of the automobile, manufacturing abilities and facilities for the production of automobiles was quite limited. It was limited all over the world. Benz may have been first to built a practical gasoline propelled vehicle, however, Daimler and others were right on his tail!
By 1892, Benz was producing automobiles in small numbers. A few much like the original "Patent Wagon", others of an early style often referred to as a "Dog Cart". They were crude and somewhat fragile machines. About 1892, Benz also began to license other small manufacturing companies to built automobiles on Benz's "Dog Cart" designs. These licensed automobiles were manufactured in several countries of Europe, including France, and Great Britain.
Around this same time, numerous engineers were working on designs and improvements, in part to avoid the Benz patents and their royalties. One of the early successes was the partnership of Marquis Jules-Albert de Dion (I did have to look it up to get the name right!) and Georges Bouton. Their company began with steam powered vehicles about 1883. By 1890, they were experimenting with gasoline internal combustion engines, and within a few years they were manufacturing engines being sold all over the world. They could not keep up with demand, and also began licensing the manufacture of their engines and automobile designs all over the world.
By 1898, De Dion Bouton had a fine little machine, offered in a variety of models and seating arrangements. They could not build them quickly enough, and soon their designs were licensed to several companies around the world, and were even manufactured in the United States.

It is interesting, regardless of the reason, to see that both Benz and De Dion bouton had a three pointed star adorning the front of some of their models. That considering that in the mid to late 1890s, those were the two largest patent licensing companies for automobile designs in the world!

Something I look forward to every year, is the annual London to Brighton Run in England. Part of the fun, at least for me, is looking at all the photos of the entrants and seeing all the company names for them. I find it remarkable how many of them are practically a De Dion Bouton or Benz knockoff! Names like Star, Rochet, or Georges Richards, the list goes on and on.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:35 am

I wasn't aware of the Hewitt truck.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:30 pm

I wonder how the drivers get in and out of those high seats? I don't see any steps.
Norm

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:57 pm

Norm - hub, top of the wheel, then the floorboard and you're up. Climbing into a "modern" cab-over diesel can be a stretch even today !

Post by **Dallas Landers** » Tue Aug 22, 2023 6:46 pm

Looks like it is a rough service vehicle by the size of the springs on radiator mounts. Loaded it probably rode pretty soft but empty?

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Wed Aug 23, 2023 11:05 am

Is that coal bed a "dumper" ? Great to see these obscure makes !

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Wed Aug 23, 2023 11:02 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:32 am

Elegant! Maybe a Renault? I don't see Internatinal or Franklin lines there.
Also, I can't find a Babcock and Davidson anywhere.
Thanks
Rich

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 12:23 pm

Herb's truck is, I think, a Kelly Springfield.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:15 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:16 am

I had forgotten Kelly-Springfield. The last one looks more like a Kelly-Springfield, although many of them had louvers in the front.
the French Front was pretty nice.
Rich

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:29 pm

Early childhood imprint is probably why I've always been attracted to that hood style ?

(from a Mickey Mouse story, c. 1953 - the wonderful 1906 Whizzix. Car with a personality!)

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 8:29 am

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:09 pm

twenty-something Mack AB with the doors removed.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:18 pm

Yep.

: Mickey.jpg (63.2 KiB) Viewed 144543 times

Junk poor · Post by **Junk poor** » Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:22 pm

Recently came across this truck. The radiator is missing along with the body. Is there enough in these pictures to identify it?

Junk poor · Post by **Junk poor** » Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:23 pm

I should also add that it is chain driven.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:31 pm

I believe it is a teens White engine. White used a channel frame on their heavier trucks although that may look lighter than what I have seen. Perhaps a Model TAC, TBC or TDC. I think you will find some of these details similar.

This is one of many types they made with the channel frame and chain drive.

Junk poor · Post by **Junk poor** » Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:14 pm

Wow that was fast. Thanks for the info. Looks like a Leaverright. Leave er right there.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:55 am

I'm sure someone would be interested if it was available.
In the meantime, it's fun to see.
Rich

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:04 pm

Something about relics like this that leave me torn between appreciating the aesthetic of a hulk like this blending into the landscape, and its "orphaned puppy" appeal that makes me want to save it. As Rich says, someone restoring such a truck would likely be grateful for spare parts, but locating that individual is probably a long shot. Thanks for showing us !!

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:33 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:48 am

It reminds me of a Rapid, but I don't know.
Rich B. said ... "torn between appreciating the aesthetic of a hulk....makes me want to save it." I feel the same way.
They great thing is that we got to see it here. I can enjoy that without the worry of owning it.

Rich

Dan Haynes · Post by **Dan Haynes** » Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:59 am

I agree with Rapid, Rich.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:18 pm

Here is a nice White pickle truck. Perhaps a 3, 4 or 5 ton. A nice spot lamp mounted above the dash with Prestolite tank on the running board. 1918? plus or minus.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:03 am

That is a great truck, but what caught my eye is how ornate the Heinz factory buildings are, that took some serious time and money to build em that fancy.
Today its all about efficiency and that is why industrial areas all are filled with the same big square boxes, i wish companies would spend some more dollares on architecture instead.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:30 pm

How about a tractor to a truck conversion.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:02 am

Another look back to the old days. I guess it is safer than it looks.
Rich

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:06 pm

Taxes siphon off resources that could go into architectural detail and landscaping, among many other things.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:30 pm

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:09 am

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:50 am

Thanks Herb. I'm glad Avery put their name on their trucks. I don't have to dig to figure out what make it is.
What do you suppose he is hauling?
Great photo!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 07, 2023 11:01 am

C. Van Gerpen ? Word "Listen" on crate.... phonographs?
Van Gerpen is a legit name.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:11 pm

This 1925 White made it to Hershey. He's having fun.
Rich
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/404608-th ... o-hershey/

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:51 pm

I wonder how far they drove to get there? I only went to Hershey once, and saw a very rare Corvair Ultravan. I recognized it because one of my sons has one. I also saw Bruce McCalley. It was raining so hard that I only stayed about one hour.
Norm

Eric l · Post by **Eric l** » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:07 pm

Herb Iffrig wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 am
I have one of those trailers . I might be interested in an interesting trade.

I know this is a old post, but do you still have this trailer by chance?

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:00 am

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:23 pm

Wouldn't it be fun to see that lumbering along down the road?
I don't recognize it.
Thanks
Rich

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sat Nov 18, 2023 1:31 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:58 pm

Thanks Herb.

For those who haven't seen it.
Rich

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am

That's interesting ! What is the arrow pointing to ? I can't make out the letters.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:20 pm

"Bell Sprocket"

: MaxBellSprkt.jpg (76.73 KiB) Viewed 143874 times

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:52 pm

Great detail, thanks, Rich !!

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:07 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:45 pm

"The REO Model H Power Wagon had a total capacity of 1500 pounds. The one-cylinder, engine was located under the seat and sent power to the rear wheels through double chains."
Hard to believe a one-cylinder engine did so well hauling loads.
Must be the gear ratio.
Thanks Herb.
Rich

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:44 pm

It seems most (all?) successful early horseless buggies were "one-lungers". It didn't take long for makers to move to multiple cylinders. I presume power impulse was problematic for autos ? Single cylinder stationary engines remained on the scene for a long time. I suppose displacement would be in proportion to delivered horse power ? The model seems to be very heavy flywheels and several revolutions between firings, neither would be agreeable for a vehicle.

I recall an immense stationary engine at the Barnes Steam Show (Belgrade, Mt. 1994) that stood over eight feet with an exhaust stack twice as high over a foot in diameter. Best of all, it blew smoke rings !! I believe it had been moved there from the Anaconda copper mines.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:54 am

Rich Eagle wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:18 pm
Here is a nice White pickle truck. Perhaps a 3, 4 or 5 ton. A nice spot lamp mounted above the dash with Prestolite tank on the running board. 1918? plus or minus.
WhiteHeinz.jpg

The Heinz building in the background. It's still there...

https://www.heinzlofts.com/

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:20 am

Single cylinders can be very powerful, but a very heavy flywheel and counter-weighting is required. Power to weight becomes a problem.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:21 pm

Power to weight ratio ? No problemo !

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:32 pm

Talking about lousy power to weight ratios !

Sentinel steamer from the late thirties

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:45 pm

The truck doesn't look big enough to ship a very big bull.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:05 am

What is better than a hi-wheeler?

Two hi-wheelers!

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:01 pm

A C. W. Rosel Co. was established in Ohio in 1905. That may be this one. The photo may be a promotional one for International or the maker of the coachwork.
It has a nice look to it.
Thanks.
Rich

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:26 am

I'm posting this on several threads.

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:36 am

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:28 pm

Chilling!!!

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Thu Jan 04, 2024 7:00 pm

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 4:51 pm

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:09 pm

Nice photo of a Republic at work. I would say about 1919. The top is interesting. It looks like a ridged top with an extra bow supporting the front. No rear curtain or visible straps to hold the rear bow back. Some unique fabrication.
T cowl lights and a spotlight rather than headlights.
Perhaps some sort of valve being loaded into it. A typical day at work?
Rich

Herb Iffrig · Post by **Herb Iffrig** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:39 am

Post by **South Park Zephyr** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:39 pm

Great pictures, I always like seeing them

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:56 am

1917 International model F. I've always been attracted to hoods like this. Many makes used them.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:50 pm

The "French Front" is particularly exotic and gives the appearance of being from overseas. I like the embossed "International" in the front of the hood. I always think about how those were made. This, from "Metal Work" in the for the restorer series shows the details.

Rich P. Bingham · Post by **Rich P. Bingham** » Mon Feb 05, 2024 9:57 am

I have those books ! Great source of know-how. When I first saw the instructions on building a hood like that, I wanted so badly to make one !! But ?? Then what ?? Nothing to put it on. (seeing this, still makes me want to make one !

)

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:12 pm

Me too! Funny, isn't it?
Rich

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:32 am

Here's the origin of the 'French Hood' the 1900 Renault typ C of a whopping 3,5 hp. The engine was a single cylinder De Dion Bouton, as Renault Frères did not yet produce its own engines.
The first two models A and B were air cooled, this was the first water cooled car, it had 'radiators' on the sides of the hood, later models had the radiator behind the engine, the flywheel doing double duty as a fan. Renault built their first car with the radiator in the (now) more conventional place up front in 1930.
In the years prior to WW1 Renault was the best selling foreign car on the US market.
Maybe that last fact made US manufacturers adopt the same look for their cars, hoping this 'modern' look would help sales a bit ?